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RC VRN 1976-09-29 Doctor--Fact, Faith, Foolishness
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ANNOUNCER: Next
is a conversation,
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between His Divine Grace
A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda
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and a United Nations Doctor,
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recorded September 29th,
1976, in Vṛndāvana, India.
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PRABHUPĀDA: So when we
cannot understand things,
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it is given in the
definition of negation.
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DOCTOR: But then it’s
much better to worship in…
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- God in form.
- Yes, that is intelligence.
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If you accept Kṛṣṇa immediately,
man-manā bhava mad… [Bg. 18.65],
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then your life is successful.
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Kṛṣṇa says: Man-manā bhava mad-
bhakto, mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru,
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mām evaiṣyasi satyaṁ te
[Bg. 18.65]
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He said.
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But they are not interested.
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avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ
[Bg. 9.11]
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“Kṛṣṇa is a historical person;
why shall I think of Him?
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I shall think of oṁkāra;” ah, you
cannot think of oṁkāra; you can hear.
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And as soon as you think
of oṁkāra it comes from?
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- There is no impersonalism.
- No, no impersonalism.
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It again becomes personal.
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So they want to avoid personality
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and as well as think of Him; it
becomes a very troublesome job.
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kleśo ’dhikataras teṣām
avyaktāsakta-cetasām
[Bg. 12.5]
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They think… cannot think of avyakta:
Impersonal, but they are trying to think of.
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Ah that is a very troublesome job.
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teṣāṁ kleśala eva avaśiṣyate
[?]
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Such attempt means he sily… simply gets
the result of his hard endeavor; that’s all.
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He do… doesn’t get any substance.
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- So with faith accept the…
- No faith—it is fact!
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Faith is blind.
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- Faith is blind.
- Yes.
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Faith with good
knowledge: That’s nice.
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If you have good knowledge of Kṛṣṇa
and you have faith, that is very good.
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But if you…
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Just like Māyāvādīs, they
say, “Imagine Kṛṣṇa as God.”
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They say, “Imagine.”
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That is no good.
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They’re no good.
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Kalpana; they say, kalpana.
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sādhakānāṁ gitarthaya
brahma-rūpa-kalpana
[?]
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Rūpa-kalpana, but Kṛṣṇa’s
rūpa is not kalpana; it is fact.
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Kalpana is not faith; it is blind.
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Let me imagine
some form of Kṛṣṇa.
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And therefore gradually,
they come down
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to the position that any form you
imagine as God: That is all right.
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They’ll have come
to this degradation.
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- That you can, any form…
- Yes.
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Any form you imagine that he is
God: That will give you success.
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They say like that.
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I think I have taken
too much of time.
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- I am going there at six.
- Words of enlightenment.
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HARI−ŚAURI: Do a… any of Prabhupāda’s books?
- Pardon?
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I have got some; I bought all the volumes
of translation of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.
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I have got all of them.
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But some of them have not arrived
from United States—the latest ones.
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And I have gotten…
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That’s very nice.
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You are staying in New Delhi?
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I stay in the Hague, and come to
New Delhi when there are no cases.
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Ahh.
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- Hague?
- Holland.
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- Holland.
- Yeah.
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That is the international court?
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Yes; the court case
located… The headquarters.
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I went somewhere.
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That is also international.
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In Geneva, I think.
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- Is there any…?
- Geneva is a… another headquarters of the…
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of the United Nations.
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New York; Geneva.
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But the a court… is a
court is in… in the Hague.
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Oh.
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So I went to that place in Geneva.
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In Geneva has got so many…
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ah… specialized agencies of the
United Nations, like the I.L.O.
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Do you think United Nations
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- is making any tangible progress?
- Sir,
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it at least brings people together
under one umbrella to discuss.
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- If you did not have that…
- But discussion:
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- That I have already explained.
- Sir, maybe,
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but if you don’t
discuss, you’ll fight.
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- No.
- Because if… If A and B don’t meet at all,
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- No; no.
- then they will have the struggle.
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If you have no idea how to come to the
conclusion—ciraṁ vicinvan [SB 10.14.29].
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You can forever go on
discussing; you’ll never come…
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You do not know what is the aim.
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na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ
durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ
[SB 7.5.31]
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Maybe so, but if two people instead of
coming to blows, come together to talk,
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- No, they will talk…
- it is a step in the right direction.
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No right direction because he
does not know what is the aim.
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They both want to have peace
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- so they at least try to…
- No; that… Everyone wants that.
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But if he does not know how to attain
peace, then go on discussing forever.
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That is going on.
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But it is still a step in
the right direction…
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- I don’t think there is any advancement.
- But other… Otherwise what is the aim?
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Otherwise, there is,
but you don’t take.
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How it can be done?
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Otherwise it…
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In the Bhagavad-gītā it is stated:
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bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ
sarva-loka-maheśvaram
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suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ
jñātvā māṁ śāntim ṛcchati
[Bg. 5.29]
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This is the process.
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- But if you don’t take it…
- But if that realization does not
dawn…
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- Till that realization…
- Then you go on barking.
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That is another thing.
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It’s better to bark than to bite.
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Then that is your satisfaction.
You can do that peacefully.
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One day after barking
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- they will come to a conclusion.
- No eh that is… Let…
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Let it be known—fact—
that that will never come.
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If you do not know
what is the aim.
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That is stated in the… durāśayā ye
bahir-artha-māninaḥ [SB 7.5.31].
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This is… Eh… Eh…
Means a bad hope:
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That by this external exhibition
of manipulation of energy,
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they’ll come to peace;
it is not possible.
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na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ
durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ
[SB 7.5.31]
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adānta-gobhir…
[SB 7.5.30]
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andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās
[SB 7.5.31]
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This kind of leading is
made by the blind leaders.
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If the leaders are blind and the followers
are blind, what result will be there?
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That is true, sir, but that
stage has not come.
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- One day it will come.
- Yes.
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But till that stage and
that realization of…
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No, stage is there.
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But if the obstinate persons,
they do not take it…
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Here it is clearly said…
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Just like Kṛṣṇa says,
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sarva-loka-maheśvaram
[Bg 5.29]:
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“I am the proprietor of all
the lands—all the planets.”
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So how can you say no?
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There must be
someone proprietor.
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But then God Himself has
created the ego in man.
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No, no.
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- He has created…
- Gos has created;
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he is also the creator.
-No, no; He has created ego.
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That is a fact, but you are utilizing
the ego in a different way.
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- Because the realization is not there.
- The reali…
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He is giving the intelligence
but you are not accepting.
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- Maybe so.
- Yes.
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That is [the] difficulty.
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He has come to
give you instruction:
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yadā yadā hi dharmasya
glānir bhavati…
[Bg. 4.7]
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When you forget, there is glānir,
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discrepancies, in the
discharge of your duties,
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He comes to give you
instruction, but you don’t accept.
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Now [indistinct] be done.
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The teacher is giving you instruction, but
you don’t accept; then how you’ll educate?
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This is going on.
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mūḍho ’yaṁ nābhijānāti
loko mām ajam avyayam
[Bg. 7.25]
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They do not accept.
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They will write comments on
Bhagavad-gītā in their own way.
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You see?
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Therefore we are presenting
Bhagavad-gītā As It Is.
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Yes; as it is.
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Don’t comment in your own way.
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You’ll not get any profit.
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Take for example any
law: Government law.
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Can I comment in my own way?
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No.
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Then…
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- Why you comment on Bhagavad-gītā?
- The law is meant for obedience.
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That’s all.
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So Similarly, if you accept Kṛṣṇa as the
Supreme Lord then whatever He has said…
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Just like Arjuna says,
sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye,
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yan māṁ vadasi keśava
[Bg. 10.14]
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“Whatever you are saying Keś…
Keśava, I accept them in toto.
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That is ac…”
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