Room Conversation
with His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada
December 13, 1970, Indore

Prabhupada: You have heard about our philosophy? You have heard about our philosophy?

Guest (1) (Indian man): Whatever I have read, but, you see, I don’t believe what I have read. I believe only whatever I have talked to you, whatever you have said.

Prabhupada: No, no, that is another thing. But still, what is your conception of our philosophy? What is that teaching?

Guest (1): Whose? My?

Prabhupada: No, as we are?

Guest (1): No, I have understood what I have heard from you, what is your conception of God, I have not understood.

Prabhupada: Our conception of God is that He is a transcendental person. Isvarah paramah krsnah sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah [Bs. 5.1]. Isvara means Lord. The Supreme Lord is a person. As you are person, He is also person, but He is the chief person. Nityo nityanam. He is the leader, and we are all led. Or He is the master; we are the servitors. That is our self-realization, to understand that “I am eternal servant of God.” In Bhagavad-gita it is said, mamaivamso jiva-bhutah jiva-loke sanatanah: [Bg. 15.7] “Eternally all the living entities are My part and parcels.” So as the part and parcel of anything is to serve the cause of the whole, similarly, all living entities, their only business is to serve the Supreme. That is all.

Guest (1): Swamiji, I have understood that the…(indistinct)… if Gita is written afterwards by Sanjaya, then…

Prabhupada: Then what?

Guest (1): Then just to prove… (indistinct) According to me, when Lord Krsna… (indistinct) When the atma goes into the trance, the mind goes into the trance, and into the suddha-sattva, then he gets the vision of all, past, future, and present.

Prabhupada: First thing that you said, that Bhagavad-gita was given in seven verses, and later on, Vyasadeva has expanded. Now, suppose accepting that Vyasadeva has expanded, do you find any difference between Vyasadeva’s explanation and the original seven verses?

Guest (1): No. Of course, that is… (unintelligible)

Prabhupada: Then, accepting even that Vyasadeva has expanded, so there is no difference. Therefore, even if we take the Bhagavad-gita as it is presented by Vyasadeva, so there is nothing to be said against it.

Guest (1): Nothing.

Prabhupada: Just like Caitanya Mahaprabhu, he gave us only eight verses, Siksastaka. But our Gosvamis, they have written volumes of books on that eight verses. But there is no difference of the writings of the Gosvamis and the original eight verses. That is not very important thing.

Guest (1): One more, sir. Lord Krsna has never asked Arjuna to sit and do bhajana. He said, uttistha mam anusmara yuddhya: [Bg. 8.7] “Get up and fight! And fight! And fight! That fight, that is your right.” I’ll fight. That is…

Prabhupada: Yes. So fight with whom?

Guest (1): “Fight with your enemy.”

Prabhupada: Who is your enemy?

Guest (1): Even physical, bodily, whatever it is, whatever it is, but you must know who your enemies are. Your enemy may be my friend. (part indistinct)

Prabhupada: That’s nice proposal. Unless you find an enemy, how you can fight? So of course, we do not say… We Vaisnavas do not say that there is no need of fighting. We never say. When there is need of fighting we must fight. Rather, somebody in New York, some Goldsmith, he was that, “Why Krsna is advising Arjuna to fight, to become violent?” So somebody protests like that. But there is no meaning of protesting against the action of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is our view. So we Vaisnavas, we are chanting. It does not mean that when there is need of fighting with avaisnava we shall lack in strength. We can fight. One gentleman inquired from me that “Vaisnavism makes one dull. He cannot act.” And, “No. You have not seen a Vaisnava.” In the two fightings, great fighting, the Ramayana and Mahabharata, the hero was Hanuman and Arjuna, and they fought.

Guest (1): They fought.

Prabhupada: Yes. And who can be better Vaisnava than them?

Guest (1): Nobody.

Prabhupada: So Vaisnava does not mean he is dull. No.

Guest (1): No, that is well proved. If there is need…

Prabhupada: Yes. So our present fighting is atheism, against atheism. They say, “There is no God. God is dead. I am God. You are God.” We are fighting against these principles. So our fighting is very strong. You don’t think that we are keeping idly. I have come here to fight with these atheists, you see, and we go everywhere. We are fighting with atheists all over the world. So we are meeting so many opposing elements. You see? They say, “God is dead.” In America, when I first went, they were popularizing theory that “God is dead.” But they again accepted and: God is not dead, but He is here with Swamiji.” They accepted. So these atheistic theories, that “Everyone is God,” “I am God,” “you are God,” “God is dead,” “there is no God,” “God is not person”—we are fighting against these principles. We say, “God is Krsna. The Supreme Personality of Godhead is Krsna. He is a person, and He is not dead.” This is our preaching. Therefore it is a fight.

Guest (1): He is not dead. He is not dead.

Prabhupada: How He can be dead? How you can think of like that, that God is dead? That is foolishness.

Guest (1): If you say God is dead, that means you are… that is your own ignorance.

Prabhupada: So we are fighting against this ignorance, so many ignorance. And at the present moment so many theories and religious principles have sprung up unnecessarily. You see? But we are sticking to the principle that the only religion is to surrender unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is real religion: surrender.

Guest (1): Complete surrender.

Prabhupada: Complete surrender. That is real religion. Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityjya mam ekam saranam vraja. Man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. These are Krsna’s words. Bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. Prapadyate—that is surrender. Ye yatha mam prapadyante tams tathaiva bhajamy aham [Bg. 4.11] These words are there.

Guest (1): I like only the last slokas… (indistinct)… where Lord Krsna analyzes and… (indistinct) …but to bring your mind and atma together that process is called yoga.

Prabhupada: But you know that Krsna said, yoginam api sarvesam mad-gatenantaratmana: [Bg. 6.47] “Of all the yogis, one who is always thinking of Me within his mind, he is first-class.” Do you accept this?

Guest (1): Of all the yoginam?

Prabhupada: Yoginam api sarvesam: “Of all the yogis…” Yoginam api sarvesam. That is the last verse of the yoga chapter, sankhya-yoga chapter. Yoginam… When Arjuna said that “This practice of astanga-yoga is not possible for me.”

Guest (1): No, of course not.

Prabhupada: No, he said. When he said like that, so Krsna answered, “Yes, practice. If you practice, it can be possible. But still, anyone…” He summarized the whole yoga process, yoginam api sarvesam: “Of all yogis, anyone who is thinking of Me always, he is the first-class yogi.”

Guest (1): That is karma-yoga.

Prabhupada: Why do you say karma-yoga? Where you get this?

Guest (1): “Whatever you do.” “Whatever you do.” It is not written that you should do the astanga-yoga.

Prabhupada: No, no, no. We are discussing this verse. He said that “Anyone who is always think…” Karma-yogi also always thinks of Krsna. That’s all right. That is not denied. But the highest principle is always keeping Krsna within his mind. Premanjana-cchurita… That is confirmed in the Brahma-samhita. Premanjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santah sadaiva hrdayesu vilokayanti [Bs. 5.38]. This kind of practice of yoga can be done by an unalloyed devotee. Premanjana-cchurita, by developing the dormant love of God. That is… That is the highest perfection. And another thing is, you are accepting mind as atma, are you not? That’s not correct. Mind is not atma.

Guest (1): No, no, mind is not atma. No. The atma and mind, they come together, each other come. When your mind does not go from here to there…

Prabhupada: Yes, mind fixed up in atma. That’s nice. But mind is not atma.

Guest (1): No, no.

Prabhupada: Mind is matter, subtle matter.

Guest (1): Certainly. That is the laws.

Prabhupada: Mind is kind of fume of the atma. So mind becomes, changes the color of the fume according to the state of the atma. If the atma is in pure state, then mind is pure. If the atma is impure state, the mind is impure. So we have taught all our disciples, satatam kirtayanto mam [Bg. 9.14], always chanting Hare Krsna. Satatam kirtayanto mam [Bg. 9.14].

Guest (1): Satatam kirtayanto yo mam…

Prabhupada: No. Satatam kirtayanto mam yatantas ca drdha-vratah [Bg. 9.14]. Drdha-vratah: “One who is always chanting about Me and endeavoring with great determination to reach Me, he is mahatma.”

Guest (1): As you have said, naham tisthami vaikunthe yoginam hrdayesu va mad-bhaktes…

Prabhupada: Tisthami. That’s it. Therefore a devotee’s position is sublime. Krsna comes as a devotee also. Actually this happened. Haridasa Thakura, he happened to be a Mohammedan, Lord Caitanya’s devotee. So in those days, five hundred years ago, there was some Hindu-Muslim… Still that is going on. So he did not enter Jagannatha temple to create some disturbance. Caitanya Mahaprabhu also did not ask him that “You go to Jagannatha temple. Who can check you?” Of course, if Caitanya Mahaprabhu had ordered, he would have gone. Neither he wanted to go, neither Caitanya Mahaprabhu said that “You must go.” Caitanya Mahaprabhu used to come to him. Tatra tisthami narada yatra gayanti mad-bhaktah. This is the practical. He came to the devotee where he was chanting. So instead of approaching God, if you chant, God will approach you. That is a fact, we see. Instead of Haridasa Thakura going to Jagannatha, Jagannatha Himself was coming to him. Every day Lord Caitanya would come and ask and sit down, “How you are feeling? What you are doing?” Then He would go to take bath in Samudra. Daily. It was Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s… And when Haridasa Thakura expired, He personally took the body and cremated on the bank of the Samudra and he performed the funeral ceremony. Haridasa Thakura was so… And he was given the title namacarya, “authority of chanting Hare Krsna mantra.” Very nice that you are cultivating this knowledge. It is very nice. Manusyanam sahasresu kascid yatati siddhaye [Bg. 7.3] This cultivation of spiritual knowledge means perfection of life. But people do not try for it. Therefore Gita says, manusyanam sahasresu: “Out of many thousands of men, one may try to cultivate knowledge for spiritual advancement.” And yatatam api siddhanam: [Bg. 7.3] “Out of many such persons who are cultivating spiritual knowledge, hardly one can understand what is Krsna.”

Guest (1): Very correct. To understand Him is a lot.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is liberation. Janma karma me divyam yo janati tattvatah. To understand Krsna… Nobody can understand Krsna, but still, to such an extent, if one can understand Him, then he immediately becomes liberated. Immediately. And not to speak of developing his love of Krsna, simply by knowledge, by real knowledge, if one understands Krsna, that is sufficient to make him liberated. And those who are devotees, for them liberation is very insignificant. Muktir mukulitanjalih sevate ’sman.

Guest (1): On the first day of this inauguration, and there were definitions about karma-yoga.

Prabhupada: Oh, the governor. (laughter) Just see. He is speaking of karma-yoga. Slaughtering ten thousand cows, that is karma-yoga. This nonsense speaking of karma-yoga.

Guest (1): So actually I shall present…

Prabhupada: The governor became little perturbed. He wanted to go immediately. You were present? And when the other men began to speak all hodgepodge…

Guest (1): I like your one sentence that day. Whatever is according to the sastras, that is correct. I agree to it. Nobody says that.

Prabhupada: Yes, that is a fact.

Guest (1): That’s a fact.

Prabhupada: Karma done does not mean that you manufacture something and it becomes a karma.

Guest (1): It is written, whatever, in sastras.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest (1): That is karma-yoga.

Prabhupada: Yes. I was just going to explain all this karma, vikarma, akarma.

Guest (1): What does he know? (laughs)

Prabhupada: In India, the land of sages, land of Krsna, land of Lord Ramacandra, land of Maharaja Pariksit, without any restriction cow slaughter is going on. And they are speaking of karma-yoga. Just see the fun.

Guest (1): I don’t know where this India is going to, the land of Krsna is going to.

Prabhupada: Well… No, we should try our best.

Guest (1): We have to fight these habits. It is our duty.

Prabhupada: Yes, that’s it. So you are a military man. I request you to fight against this nonsense.

Guest (1): Swami, I wish you could come sometime. I will gather section of some people.

Prabhupada: Yes, I’ll go. I’ll go. Where? Just fix up some time.

Guest (1): Because I am very near to temple, only 100 yards.

Prabhupada: That’s all right. That Takat? (?) Takat?

Guest (1): No, not Takat.

Prabhupada: Oh, I see, oh. We are thinking of having a branch near that Takat, in that Takat colony. What is your idea? Our Krsna consciousness center. Is that a good locality?

Guest (1): I’ll tell you. I’ll fight Tukori(?). (indistinct)…

Prabhupada: All right. No, no. Think twice before doing.

Hamsaduta: Tuesday morning, December 15th?

Guest (1): Tuesday morning? Morning, I have to go to a village somewhere.

Prabhupada: You give them after seven.

Guest (1): Ah, no, whenever opportunity.

Prabhupada: All right, then make…

Hamsaduta: Evenings are all engaged.

Prabhupada: Oh, evenings are… But evenings up to which date? Tuesday?

Guest (1): Up to the sixteenth.

Prabhupada: Up to the sixteenth? Then probably on the seventeenth we may go. Not fixed up, but there is chance. That is chance because we are thinking of an appointment with the prime minister in Delhi by the eighteenth, so if that is fixed up, then we have to start.

Guest (1): (discusses date for engagement with Hamsaduta)

Prabhupada: Is there any engagement, for…?

Hamsaduta: Yes.

Prabhupada: When?

Hamsaduta: (discusses date for engagement with 1)

Yamuna: Fifteenth is the appearance day of His Divine Grace Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati.

Prabhupada: Fifteenth is the appearance date? ? Oh, then we have to perform.

Hamsaduta: What are we supposed to do? Fast?

Prabhupada: We shall fast up till twelve and then offer puspanjali and then chant, as far as we can supply.

Guest (1): So Tuesday afternoon from three to four.

Prabhupada: Yes. You write his name.

Hamsaduta: May I have your name?

Guest (1): Major Ghun N. Susuy(?)

Prabhupada: You are Maharastrian.

Guest (1): Yes.

Prabhupada: Maharastrians, they are fighting nation.

Hamsaduta: Telephone?

Prabhupada: Telephone? Telephone?

Guest (1): Telephone, no, I haven’t got.

Prabhupada: Maharastrian spirit and Bengali spirit, almost…

Guest (1): Yes.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest (1): (Hindi?) (indistinct)

Prabhupada: Yes. These boys also, from their childhood they are addicted to so many things. Gave up immediately.

Guest (1): That’s nice.

Prabhupada: Immediately on my word they gave up. Meat-eaters, they have been described by Canakya Pandit.

Guest (1): Though we are ksatriyas, but nobody takes meat in our house.

Prabhupada: Ksatriyas are allowed to take meat by hunting, not by slaughterhouse. Not all, but some of them.

Guest (1): When you can’t get anything to eat, then only you can do that. (indistinct)

Prabhupada: (indistinct) …not in my sannyasa stage. Long ago accepted sannyasa. Sometimes in 1945.

Guest (1): Are you going there now this month?

Prabhupada: No, I can go everywhere if the arrangement… Aiye.

Guest (1): (Hindi discussion with other Indians)

Yamuna: Janaka Maharaja.

Prabhupada: Canakya, Canakya Pandit. He was a great politician and brahmana.

Yamuna: Was he in Lord Caitanya’s time?

Prabhupada: No, no. He was five thousand years…, not. Three thousand years.

Hamsaduta: He was a great devotee?

Devotee: No.

Hamsaduta: No?

Guest (1): He was politician. He was a mathematician.

Prabhupada: He was very learned scholar, brahmana, rigid brahmana. That’s all.

Guest (1): He was insulted once in boyhood by something of Mahatmananda.

Prabhupada: Nanda.

Guest (1): Then he took oath that “All right, today I turn my (indistinct) and one day I will dethrone you from here. Then you can call me (indistinct),” and he went away. (tells story)

Hamsaduta: Great determination.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Yamuna: He was a great devotee?

Prabhupada: No.

Yamuna: So he’s not authority.

Prabhupada: No, no, he was not authority in the spiritual sense. He was a politician, moralist, politician. That’s all. Worldly man.

Hamsaduta: How many people will be there?

Guest (1): Swamiji, you were telling something?

Prabhupada: Yes. I don’t find… [break] …vanam sattvam na durjante, sattva vasanti, tad eva ca durjanas tu pade pade. This is another verse.

Guest (1): (Sanskrit)

Prabhupada: So we made some life member. Is there any possibility of getting, enrolling some life member? That…?

Guest (1): Life member means…?

Prabhupada: Institution. We want some life members. Otherwise how we can conduct this institution? (indistinct) Through telegram? Or reply?

Hamsaduta: I think it was returned.

Prabhupada: Who sent?

Hamsaduta: Gita Bhavan Sect.(?), Gita Bhavan Marg, Indore. “Please reply definite arrival time, Surat. Very anxious. Janwal, care of (indistinct).” That’s how he replied.

Prabhupada: So there we are already engaged. Cannot go Surat immediately. Let us follow that.

Hamsaduta: (indistinct)

Prabhupada: Yes. That is his version. Version. There is no cost. Simply (indistinct).

Hamsaduta: So what is the program there?

Prabhupada: Never mind. “Due to heavy engagement, cannot go Surat immediately. Letter follows.”

Devotee (2): Motorcycle…(indistinct)

Prabhupada: Are you sure, that motorcycle? Can? To go and come back here for attending meeting here? By train? How far it is?

Hamsaduta: About fifteen minutes.

Prabhupada: Oh, that’s all right. That’s all.

Hamsaduta: No, no, we won’t take any prasadam today.(?) We are fasting till noon because it is the appearance day of our Guru Maharaja’s spiritual master.

Yamuna: Disappearance.

Hamsaduta: Disappearance? Oh. We won’t be taking anything at all. Nothing.

Prabhupada: Up to twelve we don’t take. Fast.

Guest (1): (indistinct) …in my house?

Prabhupada: Whatever arrangement you do, that’s all right. But if some of you members become our life members, that will be…

Hamsaduta: Have you seen our books? Would you like to see?

Prabhupada: So you can explain. [break] …the footprints of liberated predecessors like Manu and others. So they are conditioned. Therefore their rules and regulations are not perfect. It cannot be perfect.

Hamsaduta: Here is our monthly magazine, Back to Godhead. These are our… (indistinct) This is in Washington, D.C. This is in Berkeley, California. That magazine is being printed in six languages: Hindi, English, French, German, and Japanese, and Bengali. Bengali is not yet out, but it’s coming. Then Prabhupada started presenting these books while he was still in India. This book was published in 1965. This was printed in India, the First Canto of the Srimad-Bhagavatam. The First Canto comprises three volumes like this, the First Canto. And then the following Cantos are being printed by our own press in America in Boston, like this, chapter by chapter, so that people can take advantage of Srimad-Bhagavatam and read it at their convenience instead of…

Guest (1): (indistinct)

Hamsaduta: And here, Krsna Book, is the Tenth Canto of Srimad- Bhagavatam. Prabhupada calls it, “Krsna: The Supreme Personality of Godhead.” And it’s full of illustrations which are done by his American students. Just see how beautiful. There are eighty-four full color illustrations that show the pastimes of Krsna. So the people in the western world and for the first time in the history of the world will get an idea of who God is, what He looks like, what He does, where He’s residing. This is the Krsna Book, in two volumes. This is volume number one and this is volume number two. This is just a blueprint. We haven’t got a printed copy yet. Then Teachings of Lord Caitanya, Caitanya-caritamrta, which you must be familiar with, in the Teachings of Lord Caitanya and there are also illustrations although they’re not color. They’re black and white.

Guest (1): Sri Tukarama is disciple of Caitanya.

Prabhupada: He also went through in Maharastra by His chanting, (indistinct)

Hamsaduta: And most important, Prabhupada has presented Bhagavad-gita. He calls it “Bhagavad-gita As It Is.” He explains in the introduction that till now there’s been so many Bhagavad-gitas printed in all languages and all of them are misrepresenting. They have not presented Bhagavad-gita as it is. They are trying to present Bhagavad-gita without Krsna. They want to leave out the speaker of Bhagavad-gita and put themselves forward. So Prabhupada has presented Bhagavad-gita As It Is and therefore this movement has taken such hold because the real thing is being presented. This is in San Francisco, California. Then, the Nectar of Devotion, Rupa Gosvami’s book Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu, also there. This book is the lawbook of devotional service. Isopanisad, word for word translation, then the complete English translation and purport by His Divine Grace. So these books are (indistinct) bhakti-yoga (indistinct) Krsna consciousness (indistinct) explaining the chanting of the Hare Krsna mantra. So we have so much literature. And in India we’ve introduced a program, our membership program, so that we can go on distributing these literatures. And that membership program, there are four types of membership. One is life membership. Life membership means the member is entitled to all the books that we have printed plus all the books we will print in the future, plus a lifetime subscription to our magazine, Back to Godhead. And the member is entitled to stay at any one of our branches throughout the world free and if he happens to travel abroad or in India. We will have our branches. So that life membership fee is 1,111 rupees. And then we have donor membership. The donor member is entitled to all the books that have been printed, a lifetime subscription to our magazine, but he does not get the books in the future. That is 555 rupees. And subscriber membership, lifetime subscription to our magazine, which is 222 rupees. Or there is membership, yearly subscription to our magazine. In this way we’re trying to recruit members that support our movement. This movement is being supported just by literature. So in this way we can flood the whole world with Krsna consciousness and then there’ll be a change. If we want to see a change in the world, then we have to distribute knowledge of Krsna in this way. You are welcome to become a member. And also your friends. Tell them about our membership programs.

Guest (1): Swamiji, open a center here.

Prabhupada: I wish to. I wish to open a center.

Guest (1): No, no, now?

Prabhupada: Not yet.

Guest (1): And how many centers in India?

Prabhupada: Practically, three.

Guest (1): Swami, did you come across these Brahma-kumaris? They preach something else.

Prabhupada: That is something else. Everyone knows it.

Guest (1): Once they… I was in … So they were passing through, teaching some Krsna or something, and their Bhagavad-gita was something else.

Prabhupada: That is going on. [break] There may be musical performance but here it is by the pure devotees. That is different thing. Now, here don’t you see in the Gita Bhavan? When others perform kirtana nobody takes part. And they cannot continue that kirtana more than five minutes. But we can continue our kirtana for five hours without any…

Hamsaduta: If we stayed there for five hours everyone would chant. (indistinct conversation)

Prabhupada: Yes. No, mahamantra they can also do, but it will not be effective because they are not pure. Here is the secret. We have… Our devotees, they are anyabhilasita-sunyam [BRS 1.1.11], they have no other business than to satisfy Krsna. They perform kirtana to take something from Krsna. Everyone goes to some dharma-samsthana just to take something. But our proposition is to give everything for Krsna and that is far different.

Hamsaduta: Everyone is pleased with the devotees, everybody.

Guest (2) (Indian man): (indistinct)

Prabhupada: That when you do, I shall tell you. Now why do you waste your time in that way? That’s all right, you are not doing so you have no business.

Guest (2): (indistinct) Of course, I am not doing… (indistinct, several people talking at once.)

Prabhupada: (Hindi) This is called vrddha. This is called yoni. This is madhyama. This is anavrtta, and this is kanistha. (indistinct conversation) Stores are now closed?

Hamsaduta: (indistinct)

Prabhupada: Yes. So he has gone to Calcutta. [break] Utsahan, dhairyat. Are you realizing the distinction between this association and others?

Revatinandana: Yes.

Prabhupada: Yes. That you should realize. That is realization. We are trying to create a real spiritual path, not bogus, for livelihood. India’s falldown is due to that spirit, that everyone takes everything for livelihood, that’s all. Not only India, everywhere. India especially because poverty-stricken. So they take religion also as livelihood. Just like this Akhila Saheb. He wanted to chant Hare Krsna mantra for livelihood. Do you know that?

Devotee (3): Yes.

Prabhupada: How? How it was? No, you do not know. He was proposing that “I know how to cure disease by chanting Hare Krsna.” So he wanted to go to foreign countries to take this profession. That means an attempt to kill our movement in purity. Of course, nobody can kill our movement, but this sort of thinking is just against the purity of our movement: utilize Hare Krsna mantra for curing disease. Oh, it will not stay.

Hamsaduta: No. If we put it on the window it will stay. It won’t stay on the wall.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Hamsaduta: If he puts it on the window it will stay.

Prabhupada: Window means it will be dark.

Hamsaduta: Yes. I think that (indistinct)

Prabhupada: Yes. It has to be done. Not only idea, it has to be done in practical sense. Now who will take charge of this task? That is to be found out. You write to the…

Hamsaduta: GBC?

Prabhupada: GBC.

Hamsaduta: (unintelligible) So many newspapers have come out within the last three or four years. Of course, most of them are hippie groups, but they have become… People are very anxious to read something from different angle of vision.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Hamsaduta: They are tired of old newspapers. So if we present a newspaper with our angle of vision, Krsna consciousness…

Prabhupada: So immediately you write to the GBC members.

Hamsaduta: But the articles that will be in the newspaper, they will be exactly like other newspapers? Who will write them?

Prabhupada: No, articles… Daily newspaper means there must be news. News you can purchase from the news collecting company. They will supply it. At very cheap price they’ll supply. And you take advertisement. Yes. You’ll cover your expenses by getting advertisements and make sufficient profit. Newspaper starting is not a losing business provided you can organize. Just like ordinary newspaper, they give… In daily news… People want to learn daily news, and they supply huge quantity. And those who are advertiser, they are simply concerned how many copies are issued. If you issue 100,000’s of copies, then you can charge for each page thousand dollars. They will pay. Two thousand dollars they will pay.

Hamsaduta: That means in each city we would we have to have our own local press.

Prabhupada: No, not necessarily. You can arrange with any newspaper place. You simply supply your matter; they will print. Just like we are getting from Japan, similarly, make your own layout and supply them. Immediately, within two hours, everything is complete.

Hamsaduta: But a daily newspaper has to turn out daily, so it takes time to transport it from one city to another city.

Prabhupada: Well, from every city we can publish. Every city there is a newspaper place.

Devotee (4): …national, just like the national…

Prabhupada: Yes. So we have to organize. First of all let us publish in one city, big city like New York, like London, yes, Bombay, Tokyo. Big cities, world’s big cities. In India only two cities are big: Calcutta, and Bombay, important. If you publish simultaneously, Calcutta… Delhi is given importance due to capital; otherwise not important as big city, as Bombay and Calcutta. Delhi, without government offices it is a dead city. Just like Washington. What is the value of Washington? It is nothing. Simply because it is headquarters of the President, it has got importance. Similarly, Delhi is that. Otherwise it is not important. But Calcutta, Bombay, is really important city in India, big business, port, all rich men, every kind of, all cultural, everything—Calcutta, and Bombay. Originally only Calcutta, now Bombay also. Because the Britishers, they made Calcutta capital. And Calcutta was very, very important city. But these Calcutta men, they create sometimes situation, very complicated. So once in 1905 the same situation was there, politically. Sir Surendranath Bannerjee made, Surendranath Bannerjee’s movement, partition of Bengal. Lord Collier, he wanted to divide Bengal, made it East Bengal and West Bengal. And Surendranath Bannerjee… He is the practically father of Indian politics. Gandhi’s not. He was. He was. And in the beginning, in European circles he was famous. He was called “Surrender-not.” The spelling of the name, s-u-r-e-n-d-e-r, Surendranath. In Parliament he was known as “Surrender-not.” He was a very powerful politician. So there was trouble in Calcutta; so therefore they transferred, 1911, capital to Delhi. Otherwise, from the very beginning of British occupation Calcutta was the capital. You have seen the government viceroy’s house near that Hamilton building where you were trying to purchase.

Hamsaduta: The government house?

Prabhupada: Oh yes. It is better than Buckingham Palace, such a big house.

Hamsaduta: Oh, the governor’s house. The governor’s house?

Prabhupada: Yes, governor’s house.

Hamsaduta: It’s surrounded just like a…

Prabhupada: A big garden. Yes. That was viceroy’s house. Now it is dilapidated. Otherwise, formerly it was very, very nice. Huge palace in India. Lord Collier’s policy was to bring one of the princes from England and make him king of India.

Hamsaduta: King of India.

Prabhupada: Yes. That was his policy. He favored that policy, that Indian people are in favor of monarchy. So introduce this system: one of the royal family’s son should come and become king of India. That was good suggestion. If Britishers would have ruled India for the interest of India, making one king from the royal family, it would have been great success. That policy of Lord Collier was very nice.

Hamsaduta: That never happened.

Prabhupada: The same thing. The parliamentary members… Just like nowadays, party. India is suffering in party politics. And they did not like to give importance to monarchy. They wanted to rule according to their whims, and therefore the whole scheme failed. The so- called democracy under party politics is nonsense. Monarchy… I have said. That day I was in remarking that “This democracy is the government of the asses,” because the population are asses and they vote another ass to be head of the government. So what you can do? Sayuddhe kriyate rajan sa kim asnu pahanam. These are instructions in Sanskrit. “If you make a dog a king, don’t you think that he will still lap the shoes?” You cannot change his habits. Sva… Yasya bhavasya na sa sudurate kramah. Anyone’s habits, even if you give good position, you cannot change it. The example is just like if you make a dog the king, he will immediately come from the throne and bite the shoes. You see? So materially you cannot change. Only by spiritual understanding one can be…

Hamsaduta: Canakya Pandit… I have see that book, and he says in his book that if a crow sits on a high (indistinct)

Prabhupada: Yes. If you make a crow… The crow generally sits on the roof of the house, but that does not mean he has become a great man. “How great I am, a very beautiful bird.”

Revatinandana: The symbol of the Democrat party in America is the ass.

Prabhupada: Everywhere. As soon as you…

Revatinandana: Their symbol is an ass. They have a symbol.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Because they are asses.

Revatinandana: The Republican party is elephant and the Democratic party is ass, a donkey.

Prabhupada: What is the value of vote by asses? According to Vedic civilization, there was democracy but that democracy is selected committee. Just like in England there was Privy Council. So selected body of learned brahmanas and sages, they were guiding the king, and the king himself was properly educated how to rule over, under religious principles. He was trained from the beginning of his life as prince. As the future heir of the throne, he was trained, and at the same time, he was guided by a council of learned sages and brahmanas. They were looking over the activities of the king. As soon as there was some mistake they will see. And there are instances; whenever there was a bad king they were dethroned. Not for political purpose. He was dethroned but his son was on the… Just like Lord Ramacandra did. Ramacandra killed Ravana but He never occupied the kingdom. His brother Vibhisana proved to be faithful. He was enthroned. From the same family. And that was the system. Even a king was wrong, he would be dethroned but from his family, either his son or brother, or somebody would occupy there. Not that “Because I have conquered you, therefore I shall sit down.” No. There are many instances. And therefore India was ruling all over the world. The emperor was in India, and the kings of different states, their family was. So there was no rebellion. And in every state a king was trained in the same process, guided by committee of learned brahmana and sages. How perfect this monarchy is. Monarchy… That Lord Collier studied that the Indian people like monarchy. Even these states, the so-called states… Now the Congress government has killed them; otherwise the Britishers were maintaining, necessary, and they were developed. Now see. The Indore was far better before. You can see from the buildings, from the whole city. It was very prosperous city. Still it is going on. So every state, the native prince, the Britishers maintained so many native prince. And because they maintained them, they were friends to the Britishers. They knew the policy, if you create zamindar, landlord. They created this aristocratic class to support them. So when Gandhi and other leaders started this movement all the princes and zamindars, they were in favor of British. Therefore it took so much time to transfer. And as a retaliation, the common people have bereft them of their kingdom. “No more kingdom because you always supported Britishers.” It is a great politics. Therfore they have taken… The zamindars, immediately after this attainment of independence, all the zamindars and kings were bereft of their possessions. You were in Calcutta? Oh, none of you were with me. We saw one house for purchasing. That was a big zamindar’s house, Tagore Thakur(?) You saw? Yes. If you have saw… How nicely it was. When they were in opulence in our childhood, oh, it was a house to be seen. There are many houses. Just like in England the lord families. In Ascot, where we stayed, that was also lord family’s house. Now Yoko’s house, a third-class Japanese girl. She has become the queen of the house. And how third-class, low- grade. It is the sitting room and a naked picture has… How much degraded people have become. How this man is daring to hang that picture in his sitting room so that everyone who comes sees. How much low-graded they are. They want change, but because they have no (indistinct) education they are going to the animal sphere. That is hippie movement. Yes. From animal standard they become civilized. The same story, punar musika bhavah. You know that story? “Again become mouse.”

Hamsaduta: Oh yeah, I’ve heard that.

Prabhupada: The story is a mouse came to a saintly person: “Sir, I am in trouble. If you kindly release me?” “What is that trouble?” “A cat, they are after me. I am always at risk of life.” “So what do you want?” “You also make me a cat.” “All right. You become a cat.” Then again he came. “Sir, again the complaint is here.” “What is that?” “Dogs are chasing me.” “Then what do you want?” “I want to become a dog.” “All right. You become a dog.” In this way he came up to the tiger by the benediction of the… And when he became a tiger, he was… (snarling sound—laughter) Just like our Brahmananda Prabhu. “All right. Again become mouse.” You see? So these civilization is like that. They became tiger, and they are so much badly trained up that they have to become again a mouse. That is the way. That is the way of nature. If you don’t improve yourself in Krsna consciousness, then you again become stool worms. The human form of life is an opportunity to come out of the cycle of birth and death, but if one does not take—these are the statements in Padma Purana—then he loses the chance. They do not know what is life, how life is rotating, talking nonsense, “I am God. Why Krsna should be God? This is written by man.” How much low-graded people have become. They are completely under the laws of nature. Daivi hy esa gunamayi mama maya duratyaya [Bg. 7.14], stringent laws of nature, and still, they are claiming, “I am God. I am this. I am that. I am free. I am…” And they do not mind, even they are degraded to the position of the worm of stool. But there is possibility. What is this worm of stool? It is also living entity. It is not a different thing. Panditah sama-darsinah [Bg. 5.18]. One who knows, he knows that the worm of stool and Brahma are the same living entity. Simply under different reaction of karma one has become Brahma and another has become the stool worm. Now we begin. [break] It is not difficult. Simply the layout should be sent to different parts, and they will make immediately plate, and that will be paper. Daily you have to send it. Eh?

Hamsaduta: The best place to start is Boston.

Prabhupada: Yes, already. Even in small scale we can start from Boston.

Hamsaduta: Just like one or two pages.

Prabhupada: Yes. Never mind. Just like I began in that way. You have seen the…

Hamsaduta: Yes, I saw the original Back to Godhead. A lot of your articles were commenting about current events.

Prabhupada: Yes. The editorial board must be very intelligent how to talk about Back to Godhead with current politics. Giriraja, you can do that?

Giriraja: I could try.

Prabhupada: Try. You just try it immediately. You take one newspaper and comment on the current news. Any one of you… Every one of you can do. And show me how you have given. Then you start immediately. We have got many things to do. We have Krsna, and Krsna is the bhoktaram yajna-tapasam sarva-loka mahesvaram [Bg. 5.29]. What these petty politicians and three acres of land? Their stage is three acres of land; our stage is the unlimited. That I have mentioned in the second volume of Srimad-Bhagavatam. So what news they can publish? Three acres of land. We have got the innumerable universes. We can supply so much news, provided people are ready to read it. We have published so many books, they are not even able to read these books. So the other devotees, (laughs) they cannot ri…, come at five o’clock. That is the test. Yes. One who cannot rise early in the morning, he is not spiritually serious. That is test. Brahma-muhurta, this hour, one hour before sunrise, is very auspicious moment.

Hamsaduta: I can tell everyone that wants a program to come at five o’clock.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Hamsaduta: If somebody wants a program, I can say “Come and see me at five o’clock.” Because after they hear you and they have mangala-arati, then they will be more thoughtful about our…

Prabhupada: Yes, tell them.

Hamsaduta: I think that’s a good idea.

Prabhupada: You can say now, “If anyone wants to see us, please come at five o’clock, early in the morning.” Then I shall see how much serious he is. Now I have decided to go to Delhi. Even Gurudasa suggests rightly. All of us, we should go to Delhi.

Yamuna: It might be difficult to make arrangements, Guru Maharaja. The place where Gurudasa is presently staying is not equipped for ten people at present. We’ll have to arrange.

Prabhupada: No, we can arrange in the Birla’s house. He has a nice dharmasala. You know Birla’s house?

Yamuna: Yes. We were invited to stay there for ten days.

Prabhupada: So that’s all right. So, who invited?

Devotee (3): One of the people connected with the temple has associated with us in Delhi and (indistinct) has invited us.

Prabhupada: So first of all take information from the Pujari(?) in which train they have booked our seats for Delhi, and you write immediately one letter to Dhruva in Bombay and Tamal Krsna also, that Dhruva may instruct the Delhi Birla’s dharmasala to accommodate us immediately. So their dharmasala. It is Birla’s dharmasala. First of all we have to see how they have made our seats.

Revatinandana: So the residential place belongs to Mrs. Birla?

Prabhupada: No, it is a temple, very big temple.

Hamsaduta: So we should book seats for Delhi on which day?

Prabhupada: Seventeenth.

Hamsaduta: Seventeenth you want to leave?

Prabhupada: Yes. What is the day, seventeenth?

Devotee (3): Today is the fourteenth.

Prabhupada: No, day?

Hamsaduta: Today is Monday.

Prabhupada: Then?

Hamsaduta: Seventeenth is Thursday.

Prabhupada: Thursday?

Hamsaduta: Thursday, seventeenth.

Prabhupada: So Thursday, before afternoon, we shall start.

Devotee (3): You want to go by plane Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: No, I am asking one ticket for plane.

Devotee (3): You’ll fly alone to Delhi?

Yamuna: The Delhi airport?

Prabhupada: Yes. That is not difficulty. Ask Gurudasa to take me. For two hours I can sit down. It goes direct to Delhi from here.

Devotee (3): No, it makes two stops.

Prabhupada: That doesn’t matter.

Devotee (3): But the same plane.

Prabhupada: Same plane. And you come, all, by train.

Hamsaduta: Will we open a bank account here? Will we open an account in Indore?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Hamsaduta: This morning with Mr. Holi.

Yamuna: So when we find out your arrival time, Gurudasa, we can inform Gurudasa when you’ll be arriving?

Prabhupada: Yes. And then the next day you come, all, by train. Thursday we can wa…? What is that Thursday?

Hamsaduta: Thursday

Prabhupada: Oh, industrial house. Industrial house.

Guest (2): It’s called “Industry House.”

Prabhupada: Industry, that’s all. Industry House. Industry House Dhruva’s full name, you know?

Devotee (3): R.C.

Prabhupada: R.C. Dhruva, Secretary to Mr. R.D. Birla, Industry House, Church Reclamation…

Hamsaduta: Bombay, West.

Prabhupada: Bombay.

Yamuna: Is Parliament in session again?

Prabhupada: Hm?

Yamuna: I was thinking that Parliament goes in and out of session, and I wondered if they remembered this if Parliament was in session again.

Giriraja: No.

Yamuna: No.

Prabhupada: Parliament is in session now?

Yamuna: No. Out of session now. When it’s in session then all of the politicians come from their castles and (indistinct) their most of the members of Parliament (indistinct)

Prabhupada: So when the Parliament begins?

Yamuna: It will be (indistinct) It separates for about a month and then comes together.

Prabhupada: Aiye. Aiye. Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna…

Giriraja: Insofar as seeing the prime minister, this is the best time because he is not so preoccupied.

Prabhupada: Yes. Where is that picture? There was picture you prepared.

Devotee (3): (indistinct) picture with a letter (indistinct)

Prabhupada: Oh. So… So how long you talked with the Prime Minister?

Yamuna: Maybe ten minutes.

Prabhupada: So she took some interest?

Yamuna: She took a courteous interest. As I say, there was no doubt that at the time that she saw him she was pressed with other matters. A very personal friend of hers that Gurudasa is now staying with told us that she was very impressed, her personal secretary was very impressed, and that she said—we have it on tape—that she would like to see us again and she was sorry that she didn’t realize that we had been waiting for so long. Otherwise we could have come earlier, she would have (indistinct) In that way (indistinct) some time in the future.

Devotee (4): In (indistinct) we saw some yogi.

Prabhupada: Pressing nose. Nose-pressing philosophy.

Devotee (5): Hatha-yoga also.

Yamuna: (indistinct)

Prabhupada: So what was his philosophy?

Yamuna: You do some exercises and know God, be self-realized.

Prabhupada: You should have said to him, “Are you self-realized?”

Yamuna: I’m such a rascal, I didn’t even try.

Prabhupada: If they tell you then he’s God…

Devotee (5): (indistinct) exercise and breathing (indistinct) some type of meditation performed.

Yamuna: He’s social swami, a very social swami. He’s very polished in a material way.

Devotees (5): (indistinct)

Prabhupada: And smoking also?

Yamuna: I didn’t inquire into his vices.

Devotee (5): In New York they call them “uptown swamis.”

Yamuna: His example of spiritual life is based on material prosperity.

Prabhupada: So why they should go to the yoga system? The science is more advanced. Before flying in the sky by a yogi he has to press his nose for so many years and the science has given us the airplane. He can purchase ticket, immediately fly. (laughter) What is use of pressing nose?

Yamuna: You explain that in Bhagavatam.

Prabhupada: Yes. What is the use, wasting time?

Revatinandana: (indistinct) about when you walk on the water, walking on the water is a bogus thing (indistinct) two cent yogi because for two cents he could have taken (indistinct)

Prabhupada: That’s all. If that is the ultimate end of life, to walk on the water or to fly in the sky, so science has given them all opportunity. And the material science is so advanced, that all this yoga system is now almost accomplished because that is material only, material prosperity. Aiye.

Yamuna: (indistinct)

Prabhupada: Yes, eating flesh sumptuously and get fat. Flesh-eaters get fatty very quickly, flesh-eaters. Mamsa. The skin becomes increased for flesh-eating. You see in your country, the Russia? Russian beauty—big belly, fat. That…

Yamuna: Germans are like that too. Germans.

Prabhupada: Germans. If you eat meat, you very quickly can get fat. Also too much ghee also. That is also. But ghee will increase your belly only. Just the Marwaris… (laughter) But by eating flesh you’ll get sturdy, good lump of muscles. That is… In Ayur-Veda there is a chapter which is called Dravya-guna. There is a book, Dravya-guna. So they have analyzed so many different kinds of flesh—birds, beasts, animals. How they have analyzed? That “If you eat this kind flesh you will get this kind of result.” Hundreds of fleshes. What do they know? They can eat only cow’s flesh or dog’s flesh or hog’s flesh. Yes. But there are so many, even birds, beasts, animals, and so many, analysis. And Bernard Shaw, I think, he wrote one book, “You Are What You Eat.”

Hamsaduta: George Bernard Shaw.

Prabhupada: Yes. So they are becoming animals, animals eating animal flesh. Bernard Shaw was vegetarian.

Devotee (6): Except he would take liver for his health.

Prabhupada: Liver?

Devotee (6): Yes. He used to take some liver periodically for his health.

Prabhupada: Medicine. There are many liver extract preparations.

Devotee (6): No, not liver extract. Maybe. I don’t know exactly. But I know he used to take liver. Not cod liver oil or anything.

Prabhupada: No, liver extract preparations there are many medicines. For anemic patient liver extract is recommended.

Devotee (6): That’s all right for us to take?

Prabhupada: No, but if you are going to die, then you can take.

Yamuna: Chant Hare Krsna.

Prabhupada: When required for such trouble, if you are going to die, then, to save yourself, you can.

Devotee (6): If that liver can be eaten raw…

Prabhupada: If you are going to die. Not ordinary. If it is clear that without liver extract you shall die, you can take.

Devotee (4): You cannot tell. You can’t tell until you actually (indistinct)

Prabhupada: Because when there is question of death it is recommended you may take anything to save your life.

Yamuna: Chant Hare Krsna.

Prabhupada: But those who are rigid, they are prepared to die even.

Yamuna: Vaisnavas, wouldn’t they just chant?

Prabhupada: Their proposal is “Death is sure today or tomorrow, so why shall I change my principles? Death will take place even if I live for ten years more, and what is the benefit? Why shall I change my principles? It is not that by taking that medicine or liver extract I shall be amara, immortal.” That is not possible. If somebody gives some medicine that one can make himself immortal, that is another thing. Nobody is going to be immortal. Why he should be afraid of death? Death will take place. “As sure as death.” So today, or tomorrow, or hundred years after. So if one moment is utilized for Krsna consciousness, that makes life successful. Why shall I live for hundred years, waste my time? One moment is sufficient for living.

Himavati: Srila Prabhupada? I just have one question about the ending, that Ajamila, he was calling the name of his youngest son.

Prabhupada: Narayana.

Himavati: He was thinking but he was calling out to him, and after calling, he was reminded of his early life, of his worshiping the real Narayana.

Prabhupada: Narayana.

Himavati: And therefore Narayana saved him. Isn’t that true?

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes.

Himavati: Not that he was simply calling and Narayana had to save him…

Prabhupada: But simply calling, “Narayana,” he reminded, he remembered. Remembered. Yes.

Himavati: He remembered the real Narayana.

Prabhupada: Because actually when one chants Lord Krsna’s name, Lord’s name, immediately he remembers Lord’s form, activities, pastimes, everything. That is natural.

Himavati: Not that he was unconsciously just chanting and the Lord saved him in that way, but he actually remembered the Lord.

Prabhupada: That is the remark of Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura. But according to others’ opinion, even simply by chanting, that is sufficient. In the Bhagavata it is stated like that. But Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura has remarked that this chanting referred to the context. Immediately he remembered Narayana.

Himavati: In that same connection, the story of Thakura Haridasa and the harlot. She began to chant and told him the reason that she was a prostitute, she was no good and simply by that association she began to chant or by previous association…

Prabhupada: No, by association. By the influence of Haridasa Thakura. For three days, three days she associated.

Himavati: But Professor Sanyal was putting forward his theory that in previous lives she had had association; therefore she began to chant.

Prabhupada: Why previous lives? That’s not very good reason.

Himavati: Subconscious, that she had subconsciously remembered.

Prabhupada: No, no. No, no. That is not.

Himavati: In one of the Back to Godhead magazines

Prabhupada: That is not. He advocates that.(?) Direct association with Haridasa Thakura. Why previously?

Himavati: We want to say that previously she had done some chanting.

Prabhupada: We don’t find any such thing. Professor Sanyal was not very much advanced. He committed so many blunders.

Himavati: You heard about that article?

Prabhupada: No.

Himavati: That was the (indistinct)

Prabhupada: Well, if that sort of remark is given it is not against the sastra, but it was not necessarily previously. His direct association… Caitanya Mahaprabhu says,

sadhu sanga sadhu sanga sarva sastra kaya lava matra sadhu sange sarva siddhi haya [Cc. Madhya 22.54]

“Even a moment’s association with a pure devotee—all success.” Not necessarily that one has to acquire it previous, no. Generally it is so, but sadhu sanga has got its effect. Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, lavamatra sadhu sanga sarva siddhi haya. You have not read in the Sanatana-siksa in the Teachings of Lord Caitanya?

Revatinandana: Does that also apply to reading the words of a pure devotee?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Revatinandana: Even a little association with your books has the same effect?

Prabhupada: Effect, of course, it requires both the things. One must be very eager to take it. Just like Maharaja Pariksit heard Srimad-Bhagavatam, and there are so many others. They are also reading Srimad-Bhagavatam. So Maharaja Pariksit was very serious. So both things should be serious. Just like the example: the husband and wife must be potent; then there is pregnancy. Otherwise there is no pregnancy. So sewing the seed, the field also must be fertile or receptive, then the seed will fructify. It is reciprocal.

Revatinandana: If the seed starts to sprout and it lacks sufficient facilities, then it will die completely.

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes.

Revatinandana: But if a spiritual seed sprouts, then whatever sprout is made is never lost. Right?

Prabhupada: Yes. It is not lost, but it is checked. Sometimes he is checked.

Revatinandana: Because the tendency to revive again.

Prabhupada: In that way again one has to… That brings the question of previous life. One was advanced so much; it was checked by some reason; he again begins from that point. Just like Bilvamangala Thakura. Bilvamangala Thakura was advanced in his previous life up to bhava-bhakti. Somehow or other, it was checked. But as soon as he heard the words from the prostitute, “Oh, you are so much after the flesh and similar, and bones and skin. If you had been so much eager for Krsna, how you would have been disposed,” immediately he came to that point and immediately left. I’ll take (devotees offer obeisances)

Devotee (6): Srila Prabhupada? The other day you talked about the spirit soul and his position in the brahmajyoti, that there’s no shelter there. Just like we go up, up, up into the sky (indistinct) there’s no shelter there so you have to go to some planet. So I was thinking that the reason why our position is shaky is due to this body, but spirit, being restless can remain anywhere…

Prabhupada: Yes, but there the shelter is transcendental bliss. The impersonal Brahman is not transcendental bliss. It is simply eternity. But we want three things: eternity, full knowledge, and blissful life. So there is no bliss.

Devotee (6): Yes. Just as we require shelter because we have the body…

Prabhupada: Yes. So similarly, this living entity also requires shelter of blissful life. That is this association of Krsna. So unless he gets that, he wants blissfulness, but—there is some spiritual blissfulness; he has no information—he comes down again to this perverted blissfulness of this material world.

Devotee (6): They don’t take their pleasure in being there in the brahmajyoti?

Prabhupada: There is no pleasure. Blissfulness is not there, brahmajyoti is simply eternity, that’s all. The same example can be given. Just like sunlight. There is only light. But on a planet the effect of the light is there—there are so many trees, so many flowers, fruits. We, we want varieties of pleasure. Variety is the mother of…

devotees: “Variety is the spice of life.”

Prabhupada: Huh?

Himavati: Spice of life.

Prabhupada: Oh. Yes. So therefore, we are living entities, life. We want variety. So this is the varietyless, no variety, one kind, sunlight. We require sunlight. We are so much anxious for sunlight. Not only sunlight.

Revatinandana: It must get very boring. It is very boring in the brahmajyoti? You get very bored? There is nothing to do? Nowhere to go?

Prabhupada: Bore?

Hamsaduta: Boring, dull.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Himavati: But at first they are satisfied, aren’t they, that they’ve achieved their goal?

Prabhupada: Avisuddha-buddhayah. They do not know. They are after brahmananda, transcendental pleasure, but they do not know what is actually transcendental pleasure, impersonalists. Therefore their intelligence is not clean. They go to the spiritual kingdom, transcendental platform, but they do not that know, how real transcendental pleasure can be achieved. Therefore their knowledge is not perfect.

Revatinandana: When they want to come back, is it very easy for them to come back or have they got to…?

Prabhupada: No, they automatically come back because he is hankering after varieties. So that variety is not there, so he is attracted again in the material world. Just like so many sannyasis. Take Vivekananda. He wanted to lecture on Vedanta, which is liberation. He came again back to the hospitalizing and philanthropic work because he could not find the variety of pleasure in Vedanta. Of course, he was not very much advanced. There are many. There is a… Sannyasi is here. he’s a Karpatri(?). He is very learned and other… He was formerly speaking on Vedanta and other… Now he is in politics and cow protection. You see? There are many.

Revatinandana: I have a hazy memory that one time I heard that when a soul, when it finally does enter into brahmajyoti, that he has to remain there for some long duration of time, a daytime of Brahma or a lifetime of Brahma. Is that correct? What is that duration?

Prabhupada: Not that. That is not like that.

Revatinandana: Not like that. Thank you.

Prabhupada: But he feels inconvenience without varieties of life. The Bhagavata says, tvayy asta-bhavad avisuddha-buddhayah: “Their intelligence is not clean.” Aruhya krcchrena param padam tatah: [SB 10.2.32] “Although they rise up to the brahmajyoti,” patanty adho tatah, “they again come back.”

Hamsaduta: And the nirvana conception of life is just before Brahman?

Prabhupada: Nirvana conception is marginal position between brahmajyoti and this material world.

Hamsaduta: Just on the brink.

Prabhupada: Yes. Karanarnava. Karanarnava. The Karana Ocean wherefrom the beginning of creation, material creation, that is nirvana.

Devotee (4): Viraja.

Prabhupada: Viraja, yes.

Revatinandana: Is it possible to go there?

Prabhupada: Why not? Yes.

Devotee (4): Arjuna went there.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Revatinandana: What was Arjuna’s purpose?

Prabhupada: Krsna took him to show His friend. He did not go alone. That he could not. No. (laughter) It was Krsna’s chariot.

Revatinandana: So he went to the spiritual sky?

Prabhupada: Yes. Then what is the use of making friendship with Krsna if you cannot do so? There was a rich man in Calcutta, Motilal Sill. He was so rich that… Every man has different circle in younger days. So he would see. If any of his friends did not possess a house in Calcutta, he would purchase house. He said that, “If people say, ‘Oh, you are friend of Motilal Sill. You have no your own house?’ what people will say about me? He must have his own house.” He purchased house for him. He was very big man. And there are many incidences also like, a very noble story. Actually it was not long ago, say about hundred years ago. He would not see that any one of his associates, friends, does not possess a house in Calcutta. Another Krsna’s friend, Sudama also. (chuckles) He could not recognize his own place, how it had happened, palatial buildings, garden. In Krsna, you have not read Sudama? Give me water.

Yamuna: (indistinct) mentions in the Teachings of Lord Caitanya that a devotee in attachment selects one of the Vrndavana…, the inhabitants of Vrndavana, and follows in his footsteps in order to be successful in his own devotional service. Does that mean that one of our spiritual masters is an eternal representative of Vrndavana? (indistinct)

Prabhupada: What is that? Let me…

Yamuna: It says, “All inhabitants of Vrajabhumi, Vrndavana, are very dear to Krsna. A devotee in attachment selects one of the inhabitants and follows in his footsteps in order to be successful.”

Prabhupada: Devotee… Devoted to the Vrndavana inhabitants. You don’t directly think of yourself that “I shall see Krsna as my son.”

Yamuna: No.

Prabhupada: No.

Yamuna: No.

Prabhupada: That is Mayavada.

Yamuna: Yes.

Prabhupada: You have to follow the footsteps of Yasoda Ma.

Yamuna: Yes. You’ve told me that before.

Prabhupada: Then it will be success.

Revatinandana: But you’ve said that you are always in Vrndavana, so we are following a Vrndavana inhabitant.

Prabhupada: Yes. (laughter)

Yamuna: It says, “One should always remember the activities of that particular inhabitant of Vraja.”

Prabhupada: Now you have got Kapoor(?) daughter?

Devotee (4): Yes.

Revatinandana: Have we got an engagement this morning?

Prabhupada: Hm?

Hamsaduta: He asked if we have an engagement this morning. 8:30.

Prabhupada: Oh, Molpar(?), yes. They’ll send car?

Yamuna: Yes.

Prabhupada: How far it is?

Hamsaduta: It’s supposed to be just in the neighborhood.

Prabhupada: Oh, that’s all. He was formerly prince.

Revatinandana: Of this area?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Hamsaduta: He had given (indistinct)

Prabhupada: That is the sign of princely opulence.

Revatinandana: He’s the son of the man we saw last week? This Maharaja? It’s not his son?

Prabhupada: No, no, he is also old man.

Hamsaduta: I won’t be going to that place because I’ll be waiting for Mr. Homing.

Prabhupada: Homing is coming?

Hamsaduta: Yes. (indistinct) we’ll open a bank account.

Prabhupada: That’s it.

Hamsaduta: We’ll open a one-sided account.

Prabhupada: Book fund account and one, International Society, checking account. (devotees offer obeisances) So what we have to do in that connection?

Devotee (4): (indistinct)

Prabhupada: The water? [break] Where is your son? (Hindi) This is material conception. (Hindi) (end)