Discussion with Indians Prabhupada: …a bona fide spiritual master. Bona fide spiritual master means who carries out the order of higher authorities. Otherwise he is not spiritual master. Anyone who manufactures his own process of religion, that is rascaldom. dharmam tu saksad bhagavat-pranitam [SB 6.3.19]. Just like lawyer, representative of the law, means who carries the order of the supreme executive. He is lawyer. Similarly, a spiritual master means who carries the order of superior authority. We are carrying the order of Caitanya Mahaprabhu or Krsna. Krsna taught this Bhagavad-gita, and He has said that “Anyone who will preach this confidential message of Bhagavad-gita, he is very dear to Me.” Guest (1): (indistinct) …and believers in Sai Baba and other we believe in an incorporeal God, nirakara. So if Krsna as Rama or any other deity or devata, one who was definitely a superior atman, no doubt about it, but Paramatman is all other religions’ God, if something incorporeal is there, without referring to the… Prabhupada: Who says, “incorporeal”? Who says? Guest (1): It is scripture. (?) Prabhupada: No, no. Who says, “incorporeal”? Guest (1): Siva-linga. You find it all over India, that, a summary of everything, that incorporeal form, jyotir-rupa, incorporeal. Jyotir-linga, the Hindu svarupa. Prabhupada: That’s all right. You are bringing something else besides Bhagavad-gita. Just try to understand. We are preaching… This International Society for Krishna Consciousness, we are preaching… Guest (1): But you have to understand the relation between the two. Prabhupada: That’s all… That we understand very nicely. It is not that I have to learn from you. We know it very well. But you should know that we are preaching Bhagavad-gita. So this jyotir-linga, all these theories, they are not in the Bhagavad-gita. It may be in other literature, but we are particularly interested in preaching Bhagavad-gita. Because Bhagavad-gita is wrongly preached all over the world by nonsense commentation, we want to rectify it. Therefore our society is specially named “Krishna conscious.” Guest (1): What is wrongly preached about Gita? Prabhupada: Wrong… Just like yesterday I went that Gita Samiti. There is a lamp. Why there is a lamp instead of Krsna? Why there is a lamp? Krsna is a lamp? And it is Bhagavad… Guest (1): I don’t know… Prabhupada: You do not know. Therefore I say this is wrongly preaching. Why in the place of Krsna there is a lamp? Does Krsna say? Guest (1): Lamp has been with us for more than… In our mandira… Prabhupada: That’s all right. (Hindi?) Krsna is also there. Guest (1): They must evolve with that idea because… Prabhupada: No, no. First thing is that when we speak of Bhagavad-gita, it is spoken by Krsna. So why there is no Krsna photograph? Guest (1): They didn’t put the picture. Prabhupada: Yes. That means you have not understood Krsna. Therefore your, this so-called Gita society is not bona fide. At least even in ordinary feature, suppose if there is political meeting, you keep Gandhi, this photo, Jawaharlal Nehru’s photo because they are the political leaders. You are preaching Bhagavad-gita, Gita Samiti, and there is not a single picture of Krsna. Guest (1): There is little misunderstanding, that Gita Jayanti is for… Prabhupada: No, first of all answer me this question. Then you go to Gita Jayanti. That, your Samiti is Gita Samiti and there is not a single picture of Krsna. Yes. Guest (1): We don’t know about that one. Prabhupada: You were not there present? Oh. That’s not… I think you were present. Guest (2): (indistinct) Prabhupada: This is misguided. Guest (2): I never gone there, never been there. Prabhupada: This is misguided. That’s all. Now, “Gita Bhavan,” and they have invited me because we are teaching Bhagavad-gita, and that was Gita’s Jayanti—and the speaker of Gita is not present? Therefore I say that there are so many places, here also. They are wrongly representing Bhagavad-gita. So our position is to rectify that wrong propaganda of Bhagavad-gita. Guest (2): What is that wrong propaganda? Prabhupada: That is one of the instance. There are many instances, many instances, many instances. Just like Dr. Radhakrishnan. In the Ninth Chapter there is verse, man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. Radhakrishnan says, “It is not to the person Krsna.” Where he gets this nonsense idea? Guest (1): No, that Vivekananda also has said. Prabhupada: They are all nonsense! Therefore I say they are all nonsense, who deviates from the original text of the Bhagavad-gita. Guest (2): Swamiji, by declaring other interpretation as nonsense… Prabhupada: Yes! You cannot interpret! First of all if you cannot interpret. First of all my proposal, that you cannot interpret. Guest (2): We’ll come to that, that you are not interpreting correctly, does not make me correct. I must be correct also to… Prabhupada: I am correct so long I present the correct thing, so long I am… If I present Krsna as it is, then I am correct. Guest (2): My solution, Swamiji, most respectfully, is how do you judge that “I am correct”? Prabhupada: Because I am presenting what Krsna says. First of all you answer this: what is correct, the standard of correctness? You cannot create correctness. When Krsna says this, man-mana bhava mad-bhaktah: “You just surrender unto Me; become My bhakta,” how you can say, “It is not to Krsna.” This is not nonsense? If I say, “Give me a glass of…” Hear me. If I say, “Give me a glass of water,” if you say, “It is not to Swamiji,” is that interpretation? Guest (1): I do not, and again I say… Prabhupada: No, no, first of all you answer me. If I say, “Give me a glass of water,” and you say, “It is not to Swamiji.” Guest (1): (indistinct) …what the Christ says, Mohammed says, everyone says, that… Prabhupada: Let them surrender to Christ. But why don’t you surrender to Krsna? Guest (1): No, that is true, but… Prabhupada: That is true, but you do not know how. Guest (1): No, you see, our… Even your… Even your way of thinking and your purpose is that Lord Krsna should be Lord of the whole universe, so…, Prabhupada: Yes, Lord Krsna is lord, universe. Guest (1): Universe? Prabhupada: Yes. Guest (1): So that is what you want to talk with me. Prabhupada: Yes. Guest (1): In that case, you will have to satisfy everybody. Prabhupada: I am satisfying everybody. I am preaching that. But it is not possible… I am preaching in Europe. Christians, Mohammedans, Jews, they are surrendering to Krsna. So I am doing my duty. Guest (1): If I would be permitted, I would very humbly submit that… Prabhupada: You may not. You have not to surrender, you may bring some argument, but where I am preaching, they are surrendering. Guest (1): You are doing a very wonderful work, there is no doubt about it, but the thing is that… Prabhupada: But you do not like that wonderful work. Guest (1): …judging duty of what we are doing, this is somebody else and not we ourself. Prabhupada: Now… What you… My point is that our society is clearly giving you the indication that we are preaching Krsna consciousness. Guest (1): Every society has taken… Prabhupada: So that’s all right. If you like this Krsna philosophy, you are welcome. Otherwise you leave. Guest (1): We have come here… Prabhupada: Because first of all see that you are… Guest (1): If you reject… Prabhupada: No, no. Don’t talk, all together. First of all you must know what is the truth. If your standard of truth is different and my standard of truth is different, then where is the use of talking nonsense? If you have any other truth than Krsna, you be satisfied. Guest (1): Seeking knowledge… Prabhupada: Seeking God is sufficient. If you take… First of all you know my position. Suppose… Guest (2): I understand your position and I have from the beginning said most respectfully. I beg to submit and what my submission is that, as a seeker of knowledge, I come to you. Now… Prabhupada: No, no, that… Do you know what is the process of seeking knowledge? Do you know that? Guest (1): No. Prabhupada: No, first of all answer me. You are seeking knowledge… Guest (2): The thing is… Prabhupada: No, you also hear me. First of all let me know what is the process of seeking knowledge. You cannot make your own process. Guest (2): The concepts have changed. You are making a change from the… Prabhupada: No, no. First of all you know that I am speaking from Bhagavad-gita. Bhagavad-gita says, tad viddhi pranipatena [Bg. 4.34]. Is it not? Tad viddhi pranipatena. You have to surrender first of all. Guest (2): Surrender to whom? Prabhupada: Anyone wherefrom you are seeking knowledge. Guest (2): Ah! Surrender and… Guest (1): You lose your identity. Prabhupada: Yes. First of all you have to find out a person where you can surrender. Then you can ask and you can seek knowledge. Otherwise there is no… Simply waste of time. Why should you waste your time? Why shall I waste my time? Are you surrendered to me? If you are not surrendered to me… Guest (2): I, I… Prabhupada: No, no. Stop this. Just try to understand. If you are not surrendered to me you have no right to ask me anything. Guest (2): Before one surrenders to somebody, he should be satisfied first with the questions… Prabhupada: Therefore… Yes. So that, that… Now that satisfaction, I cannot satisfy for your whims. Guest (2): It is not a whim… Prabhupada: Now, one thing is that I am preaching Krsna consciousness. If you talk on Krsna consciousness, then you can ask me. Guest (1): Yesterday you said in our nice gathering, I remember, that we have to rise above body consciousness. Prabhupada: Yes. That is in the Gita. Guest (2): And we have to be soul conscious. Prabhupada: Yes. Guest (2): Now, the idea of rising above body consciousness is to sell off the wild things, kama, krodha, lobha, moha, ahankara. Guest (2): Ahankara Guest (1): Now, that is one thing that is there in all scriptures. The Gita also says that kama, krodha, lobha, moha, ahankara must be checked. Now, if we move with that pride and arrogance that “We are the only correct calling. This is the only correct path,” and that “You have to surrender from the beginning,” now that only aggravates the pride in a person. Prabhupada: Then what can I do? Krsna says… If you talk, two, I cannot answer. You talk with me, one. Guest (2): No, we have talked with reasoning. Prabhupada: No, no. Don’t talk, two. I cannot answer with all these reasons. Either you talk or then let him talk. Guest (2): I am talking. I am talking now. Prabhupada: Then you talk. Let him talk. Guest (2): So we have to tear all these vices that are connected with our body. That is our purpose of getting into either bhakti, or nama, bhagavata or whatever it may be. Prabhupada: Yes. Guest (2): But in that way, if you talk from that, another way of ahankara and pride, then things cannot go far. Things cannot go far. Prabhupada: So shall I answer now? Now you stop; I answer. Now Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66], aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayisyami. So even though you have got so many sinful life, Krsna assures that “If you surrender unto Me I shall give you protection from the reaction.” Guest (2): That is another thing. Krsna… Prabhupada: Krsna… Krsna, yes. Krsna. Guest (2): Surrender to Krsna, not surrender to all who… Prabhupada: No, no, no. Surrender to Krsna. We are saying not “Surrender unto me.” We say, always saying, “Surrender to Krsna.” Therefore the same word. I am not saying that “I have become Krsna. I have become God. You surrender to me.” We are preaching, “Surrender to Krsna.” That is Krsna conscious. So we are not speaking differently from Krsna. You try to understand. We are saying… Suppose if I say, “Give me a glass of water,” and if you say, “Oh, give Swamiji immediately a glass of …,” the same thing. Guest (2): Krsna also says in Gita that… Prabhupada: No, first of all you try to understand this, that Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam: [Bg. 18.66] “only unto Me.” Guest (3): “I am the only one.” Sarva-dharman… Prabhupada: Again you are speaking. I am talking with him. Again you are speaking. No, no. I cannot answer in that way. Let him talk. No, no. You stopped me. Let him talk. Otherwise it is not possible. You put some question; he puts some question. It is not possible. Now Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. Now what do you say? He is very proud? Guest (2): He’s entitled to be proud. If a person has said that… Prabhupada: Yes? Guest (2): Let him say that, but it doesn’t mean everybody will be able to follow. That doesn’t mean that. Maybe He has said. Prabhupada: But then He doesn’t say. You say, “If you follow me.” Now it is your discretion to follow Him or not to follow Him. Krsna said this to Arjuna. That does not mean everyone of the world, like Arjuna, surrenders to Krsna. That is not possible. Anyone, if he says, even Krsna, or God, says, it is not that everyone follows that. That independence you have got. But our philosophy is that Krsna says, “You surrender unto Me,” and we are imploring, we are begging persons, that “You please surrender to Krsna.” Now it is your discretion. Whether you surrender to Krsna or Lord Siva, that is your discretion. But our preaching method is we are trying to preach in the world, “Please surrender to Krsna.” That is our position. Guest (3): Sir, can I speak now? Prabhupada: Yes. Guest (3): With your permission, I believe in Gita. I believe in this thing, that it is the Lord who says: sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayisyami ma sucah [Bg. 18.66] And still, He says also in Seventh, Eighth and Ninth Chapters of Gita that (Sanskrit) “I do not take part in that ordinary things and I cannot be seen by the naked eye.” Prabhupada: Then you find… Guest (3): Krsna was body incarnate. Prabhupada: Then you mean to say that Krsna contradicts. Guest (3): No, not Krsna contradicts. Prabhupada: Then why you bring this question? Guest (3): The Gita, the Gita is… Sir, if I may be permitted to continue? Prabhupada: Yes. Guest (3): Gita jnana itself is given by Lord incorporeal, not to Krsna. Krsna, it is told, at the time the jnana was given had a body which became divya Vedanta(?). Prabhupada: Yes, that is your interpretation. Guest (3): That is exactly what… Prabhupada: No, you say. Anyone who… Anyone… Whatever he says, he thinks like that, exact. That is another thing. But we know that Krsna had no difference between His body and soul. He is absolute. Now, you are talking from the point of view that Krsna’s body and Krsna’s soul is different. Guest (3): Ah, no… In every body… Prabhupada: That is not the fact. That is not the fact. Guest (1): Sir, Krsna could not the two… Prabhupada: No, no, you say, “could not,” but we do not say like that. Now who will settle up this thing? You say, but I do not say. Guest (3): If you say, “This is not the body…” Prabhupada: No, no, no. We are to speak on the Bhagavad-gita. We are talking of Bhagavad-gita. Krsna says that mam ekam. He never says that “to My soul.” Guest (3): No. He says, “I am one.” Prabhupada: Therefore He is one, both body and soul, one. That is one. Guest (1): Swamiji, material aspect in your understanding, they are one? Prabhupada: Therefore He is nonmaterial. Therefore He has spoken… No, no, if you compare with Him ordinary man, then at once you become a mudha. Avajananti mam mudha. No, you say… This is the saying of Bhagavad-gita. Avajananti mam mudha manusim tanum asritah [Bg. 9.11] (Hindi) “Because I have taken this human form of life, the rascals, they think I am a human being.” It is said in the Bhagavad-gita. Guest (2): I think… As my understanding of this aspect is concerned, He says, “When I adopt this medium through which I give this jnana, mudha-mati do not understand Me.” Prabhupada: Yes. Now, mudha-mati, how to understand? Guest (2): “Cannot recognize Me.” Prabhupada: Suppose I am mudha-mati, so how I am to understand? Guest (2): Yes, but Krsna as a body form could be seen and could be recognized by people as such. So there was no question of not understanding him. Prabhupada: Thing is that whatever I have understood about Krsna I haven’t got to learn from you. Guest (2): No, you don’t have to learn from me. Prabhupada: Thank you. Guest (2): But what you have to learn… Prabhupada: No, no, I am not speaking my own views. I have got my acaryas, my teachers, Ramanujacarya, Sankaracarya, Madhvacarya. So it is all right. It is all right. I have got so many authorities. What authority you have got? Guest (2): I am, myself, in my own senses… Prabhupada: Now, you are not authority. Guest (2): I am not but my own… Prabhupada: I am following so many authorities. Then… Then there is no question. Guest (2): I am only… Prabhupada: You are yourself authority. Now, if you say my views are not correct, I may be incorrect but I am following the predecessor. I am taking… Guest (2): What is the difference there? Sir, I accept that. Prabhupada: Yes. Guest (2): Hundred per cent, you are very correct in saying what you have just said. Prabhupada: Yes. Guest (2): I want to understand that point of view. That is why I have come. Prabhupada: But this is the point of understanding. That I have already told you, in the Bhagavad-gita, that if you want to understand, first of all you have to surrender. Guest (2): Surrender to whom? Not to the acaryas but to the… Prabhupada: First of all find out whom to surrender, then talk. Guest (2): …supreme acarya Prabhupada: That’s all right. If you think that you are not fit for my surrender, that’s all right. But first of all you find out somebody where you can surrender; then talk. Guest (1): To jnana-datta Himself. Prabhupada: Yes, that’s all right. If you surrender and if you get jnana-datta, that is all right. So far we are concerned, if we do not surrender, if you do not surrender, then you simply waste our time, idle talk. This is not the process. Guest (1): You have to treat the person with… Guest (2): For seeking knowledge from him. Prabhupada: But you are not seeking knowledge. You have come to challenge it. You have come to challenge. Guest (2): No, no, no… (several Indian men talk at once) Prabhupada: Now, you are saying that Krsna says that incorporeal. But Krsna says that “Anyone who thinks that I am incorporeal, that he is a fool.” Guest (1): Quite right. Lord Krsna as such, if anybody calls Him incorporeal, he’s a fool. Prabhupada: Yes. Guest (1): Because He has a body, He has taken birth from Devaki. And incorporeal does not… Prabhupada: Therefore the Krsna says that one has to understand that what is Krsna’s birth. Janma karma me divyam yo janati tattvatah. So that tattvatah is not yo. Anyone who knows Krsna actually, he becomes immediately liberated. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti kaunteya [Bg. 4.9]. Anyone simply who understands Krsna, he becomes immediately liberated. If you understood Krsna correctly, then you are liberated person. You have nothing to ask from me. Guest (2): It is what… Prabhupada: No, that’s all. Then you are liberated person. You have nothing to ask from me. I am for those who are conditioned, but you are liberated, so you have nothing to ask from me. Guest (4): Rest of us, we persons, go. Prabhupada: Then you are liberated; you have nothing to go. If you are liberated, then you have nothing to seek, knowledge. Guest (5): Thank you for listening. Time and place. He’s already said that. Prabhupada: Yes. If you are liberated, you have nothing to go anywhere because you know everything. Guest (2): May I again submit with the honor that you have bestowed on me of having said that I am already liberated according to the version of Gita… Prabhupada: If you have understood Krsna, then you are liberated. Guest (2): I still feel… I still feel… Prabhupada: Then you haven’t got to seek knowledge. Guest (2): I still feel that… Prabhupada: You be satisfied with yourself. You are liberated. Guest (5): That means those who are to follow you are not liberated. Prabhupada: I am not follow… Er, I don’t say, “Follow me.” I say, “Follow Krsna.” Why…? Don’t mistake that. I say… My vision is that Krsna says, “Surrender unto Me.” I say, “You and everyone, surrender to Krsna.” Guest (5): That you make wherever you are spreading, not… Prabhupada: Well, that is my business. Where I am spreading or not, that is my business. But I am saying this, that Krsna says you surrender unto Krsna, “Surrender unto Me.” I say, “Surrender unto Krsna.” Is there any difference? Guest (2): (indistinct) Prabhupada: Is it not according to Gita? Is it not according to Gita? If I say, “Surrender unto Krsna”… Guest (5): …if each and every person has an individual identity of (indistinct) soul above the body consciousness and unless you treat him as equal, there is little… Prabhupada: No, nobody… You cannot say… Even though they are equal, you can see equal but they are not equal. They are not equal. There are three gunas, and in the Bhagavad-gita that is analyzed, that “These persons are in the sattva-guna, these persons are in the rajo-guna, these persons are in…” Guest (5): That is not personality of the atma, but the atma is everybody’s soul. Prabhupada: That’s all… First of all we have… Guest (5): If you have potency to rise and go higher and higher… Prabhupada: You are not on the atma stage; I am not in the atma stage. You are in the bodily stage. Guest (5): Both, body and soul, together… Prabhupada: Then if you are in the atma stage, then you have no argument with me. Panditah sama-darsinah [Bg. 5.18]. Guest (5): But argument, you have admitted that… Prabhupada: No, there is no argument. That will stop. Brahma-bhutah prasannatma na socati na kanksati [Bg. 18.54]. Guest (5): It is on arguments get down… Prabhupada: No. If you are… Just see. This is stated in the Bhagavad-gita, that: vidya-vinaya-sampanne brahmane gavi hastini suni caiva sva-pake ca panditah sama-darsinah [Bg. 5.18] If you are in the spiritual platform, then you will see a learned brahmana, a dog, a candala, a elephant—they are in the same stage. So there is no argument because he sees a dog and the learned brahmana, the same position. Guest (3): That is the correct position. Prabhupada: That is correct position. But if you find that “Swamiji is not on the standard,” that means you are not in the posit…, sama-darsinah even. Guest (3): You mean if a person commits a murder, a sinner… Prabhupada: Yes, that is very high stage. That is very high stage, sama-darsinah. Guest (3): No, no. If a person commits a murder, you are seeing… Prabhupada: So why you see, you are seeing, “Commits murder?” Why don’t you see that it is Krsna is acting there? Why you say that “commits murder?” Guest (2): Krsna is getting the sin committed. Prabhupada: Sama-darsinah means you have no distinction what is sin and what is… Guest (1): Sama-darsinah means to treat everyone as equal. Prabhupada: No, no, no. Sama darsinah means there is no distinction between sin and virtue. That is sama-darsinah. As soon as you see, “This is virtue, and this is sin,” it is not sama-darsinah. Guest (1): Virtue and sin become the same in sama-darsinah. Prabhupada: Yes. That is sama-darsinah. Guest (2): In other words, the sin does not remain sin any longer. Prabhupada: That is another thing. But he has no vision that “This is sin, and this is virtue.” That is sama-darsinah. As soon as you make distinction, you are not sama-darsinah. Guest (2): In another interpretation, in… Prabhupada: You may interpret in a different. Sama-darsi, this is plain word. Sama-darsi means there is no difference, that’s all. Guest (2): But sama-darsi equals sama-darsi. The sin and virtue are the same. Prabhupada: No, here… Yes, that is sama-darsinah because here it is said clearly, vidya-vinaya-sampanne brahmana [Bg. 5.18] A brahmana, learned brahmana, and vinaya, very humble… That is the sign of goodness. Vidya-vinaya-sampanne gavi hastini sunica. Sunica means dog. Now he is seeing a dog and a learned brahmana—same. Now, dog is supposed to be sinful, and this learned brahmana is supposed to be virtuous. Therefore his vision, the virtuous and the sinful, the same. That is sama-darsi. Guest (1): I think that they have made a many mistakes in writing of the slokas. Prabhupada: That’s all right. Now you are finding mistake with Vyasa, so who can talk with you? Guest (2): No, but, but… Prabhupada: Please excuse me. Please go out. Please go out. Don’t trouble. You are finding faults with Vyasa. Guest (4): We only want you to be understood here. Prabhupada: (shouting) I am not sama-darsi! I don’t say I’m sama-darsi! I don’t say, sama-darsi. So you say sama-darsi. Sama-darsi. Guest (2): You should be sama-darsi. Prabhupada: But I am not in that stage. I say because you don’t surrender to Krsna, you are sinful. That is my darsana. Guest (4): So then you should be also seeing as sama-darsinah. Prabhupada: No, why shall I? I am not in that position. I am not within that… I am simply repeating the words of Krsna. Guest (4): Then that… You came to… Even your… (?) Prabhupada: I am simply teaching the teachings of Krsna. That is my point. I may be sama-darsi, I may be not sama-darsi. Guest (4): Not be, but you teach that we should worship the sama-darsi. Prabhupada: Krsna says. I don’t say. Guest (4): Ah! You say, Krsna says that… Prabhupada: But that does not mean that one has become sama-darsinah. That is… That is his… Guest (4): Then he is not following the guru. Prabhupada: No. My position is simply repeating. That’s all. My position is. Guest (2): So we want understanding more than mere tape recorder. Prabhupada: Yes, you may be tape… But that is my position because I have been authorized in that way, that “Anyone who preaches this confidential subject matter, he is My dear.” So I have nothing to learn, what is sama-darsi. I have my position… Guest (4): No, blind following and open-eyed following, I say it is all right. We can read the book. We can read the verses, translation, Hindi translation. But that is not understanding. Prabhupada: Yes, that is not understanding, I understand. But I am understanding from my teacher, just like I told you, Ramanujacarya, Madhvacarya, Visnusvami, Lord Caitanya. There are so many stalwart teachers, practically whole Hindu community. Guest (6): But every successive teacher has added some interpretations of the knowledge, no? Prabhupada: First of all let him be successor. Guest (4): You are the successor of somebody. Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Guest (4): Yes. So you want to act something to get knowledge. Prabhupada: Yes. Guest (4): And what is your contribution, then? That is what we are asking. What is sama-darsi? Have you become sama-darsi? Guest (6): You are teaching others to be sama-darsi… Prabhupada: My sama-darsi is that why only the Hindus shall know Krsna? The world should know Krsna. Guest (6): World should know also. Prabhupada: Yes. Guest (2): What exactly Krsna was and what is His teachings? That is what… teachings. Prabhupada: So if you… If the Hindus refuse to know, what can I do? If the Hindus refuse to know, then what can I do? Guest (6): There is no challenge to anyone. Guest (3): This is a simple open-hearted discussion that we should have learned something, though we are not in a position to make…(Indians talking together) Hamsaduta: But the process of knowing is… Krsna says, “Just try to approach a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render him all kinds of service. The self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth. And when you have thus learned the truth you will know that all living beings are My parts and parcels, that they are in Me and are Mine.” So if one is not prepared to approach a spiritual master inquiringly, not challenging, but with inquiry and followed by submission or service… You must be prepared to act on the instructions of the spiritual master. If those two qualifications are not with you, then why approach anyone for anything? You will simply waste his time and your own time. This is Krsna speaking in Bhagavad-gita. Krsna says, “You just try to approach a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively. Render him all kinds of service. The self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth.” Guest (2): There is a difference of day and night between blind following and his following. Hamsaduta: That is not blind following. Submissive inquiry and then you have to be prepared to test. Just like the professor, the professor in a college. He says, “You inquire from me.” “My dear professor, how is it?” He says, “It is like this. You simply do this homework.” And you do it. You have to do it; otherwise you cannot get any mark. You cannot make any advancement in the class. If you simply say, “Oh, why, why, why…?” Guest (1): No, no, but… Hamsaduta: That is submission. That is inquiry and submission, that the master is there and you say, “All right, I accept you as my master and I want to follow your instruction.” And then in the end, when you have done the work, then you can say, “Oh, this master, yes, he is correct,” or “No, he’s a fool.” Guest (6): You have caught up only one sloka. Hamsaduta: There is no other way. It is not possible. Every sloka in the Bhagavad-gita is as good as any other sloka because it is absolute. Guest (6): Let me say, tell you what submissive word means in relation of Gita. Hamsaduta: Yes, the perfect example given by Arjuna, the perfect disciple, is “Now I am confused about duty…” Guest (7): …more than you or I. Hamsaduta: Arjuna says to Krsna… Arjuna says to Krsna… What does he say? Prabhupada: No, no, no. First let me know whether you want to submit or not? Guest (8): I do! Prabhupada: First of all answer this question, whether you want to submit or not. Guest (6): We want to submit after understanding. Hamsaduta: Try to understand. The teaching of Bhagavad-gita, teaching of Bhagavad-gita begins when Arjuna admits, when he admits that “Oh, now I see. Now I am confused about my duty. Now I am a soul surrendered unto You. You please instruct me.” Guest (6): We don’t want… We have not come here… (many Indians talking at once) Hamsaduta: If you are not prepared to follow the example of Arjuna and submit yourself… Guest (2): Swami Bhaktivedanta has said… Hamsaduta: No, no, no. Guest (2): When we are all… (several talking at once) Hamsaduta: One at a time. One at a time. Let me make my point, that Gita begins… The reason Gita has value is because Arjuna, he admits his ignorance. He says, “Now I am confused about my duty and I am a soul surrendered unto You. You please instruct me.” That is the beginning of Bhagavad-gita. And if, if we want to take, or if we want to get the benefit of Gita, then we must follow the example of Arjuna, who is the perfect disciple, and Krsna is the perfect master. And the first point is you must become submissive. Guest (2): We understand now what you mean, submissiveness. Hamsaduta: So that same thing is there if you want to learn from a spiritual master, that you come with an attitude of submission and prepared to follow the instructions. But if you think, “Well, if I like the instruction, I may follow. And if I don’t like, then let him go to hell,” then what is the use of inquiry? Guest (2): No, no, no. We don’t want Prabhupada… Guest (1): That is not the idea. Submissiveness is the only lesson of Gita Hamsaduta: That is the only lesson. “You just give up all…” Prabhupada: No, we cannot hear any more. That is the only lesson. That is the only example. Hamsaduta: Krsna says, “Give up all forms of religiousness and just surrender unto Me.” Guest (2): You are taking one sloka… Hamsaduta: Any sloka, any sloka. Prabhupada: Neither you can give up this sloka. You cannot give up this sloka. Yes. So first of all you answer. See practical example. When Arjuna became confused, he said, sisyas te ’ham sadhi mam prapannam: “Now I am surrendered unto You. Please teach me.” Unless you come to that point, there will be no teaching and there is no use of teaching. Guest (7): What time and what energy… Prabhupada: That you have to see. You have to see. You have to see your time, when you are prepared to surrender. When you are prepared to surrender, as Arjuna said that “I am now confused and I surrender unto You.” If you think that you are not confused, you cannot surrender, then there is no question of teaching. Guest (2): Surrender is first condition. “You must surrender” is the first condition. Hamsaduta: Yes. (end)
by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada
January 18, 1971, Allahabad