Room Conversation Tejas: So this is Sri Madan. He is architect. Prabhupada: Madan Mohan. Tejas: And this is Sri… Prabhupada: (indistinct) [break] Patram puspam phalam toyam. Then? Tejas: This is Sri Naran Svarupa Sharma. He was professor in England and then Member of Parliament here. Prabhupada: Oh. Tejas: And he has been helpful. Prabhupada: (Hindi) Just see our condition. You have read this morning’s paper? Guest (1): Yes. Prabhupada: Swami Akhandananda is speaking kalpana. Such a big sannyasi, he says that Krsna is kalpana… Devotee: What was that now? Prabhupada: Swami Akhandananda, he was… Guest (1): Swami Akhandananda, I see, but yes, in Birla temple. Prabhupada: Yes. Birla temple is speaking that Krsna is kalpana. Guest (2): Kalpana. Prabhupada: Yes, kalpana. Mayavadi theory is brahma nirakara, so… (Hindi) You can imagine that God is so insignificant that you can imagine His form. This dangerous theory is going on in India. God is so insignificant that you can imagine at your whims whatever you like. Ramakrishna Mission is also preaching this, and now this big, big sannyasi, they also preaching this. God is a subject matter for, of my imagination, He is so insignificant. You have seen the paper? Guest (1): No. I haven’t read this particular statement. Prabhupada: Oh. Rayananda(?), can you get that paper, Hindustan? Guest: Quite surprising. He’s quite a learned scholar. Prabhupada: The learned scholar, they have been described in Bhagavad-gita, mayaya apahrta-jnana asuri-bhavam asritah. Because they have taken this view that God is impersonal, He has no form, this is asuri. Then mayaya apahrta-jnana. Therefore, however learned they may be, maya takes away their knowledge. Mayaya apahrta-jnana asuri-bhavam asr… That is described in the Bhagavad-gita. (Hindi) The Absolute Truth, that is subjected to be imagined by me. I am a tiny soul. And if a learned sannyasi says like that, how many thousands of people will believe in that, will be wrongly impressed? This paper will be read by thousands and millions. (Hindi) …hodge-podge. Guest: Another one, Bala Yogi, has made a statement that “I will call myself anybody but not Hindu” Prabhupada: Huh? Guest: “I will call myself anybody but not Hindu.” Prabhupada: I will call…? Guest (2): “Anybody but not Hindu.” Guest: He is not Hindu, he says. Guest (2): Bala Yogesvara, some other saint. He said, “I am not Hindu.” Guest: He was giving this (indistinct). Guest (2): (indistinct). Guest: Nobody is now, I think. Prabhupada: (referring to paper) (Hindi) What is the heading? Guest: This one? (reads in Hindi) Prabhupada: (Hindi) Guest: (Hindi) Prabhupada: To imagine. By imagination one is going to tattva-vit, Absolute Truth. Just see the theory. By imagination you have to reach the tattva-vit. Tattva means Absolute Truth, reality, and that is subjected to man’s imagination. Guest: It seems, Swamiji, this is the headline which is not a Akhandananda’s statement. Only the reporter has put up the headline. Prabhupada: But people will read as Akhandananda’s… Guest: Yes, sir. Guest (2): Why don’t you read the whole matter? Srila Prabhupada says, he says, and he says it very wrongly, that (indistinct). You read the whole matter,. The summary of the whole matter is the same. This is very wrong. Prabhupada: Vasudeva, you just, you can read the whole thing. It is imagination. Tattva… [break] …imagine yourself, that “My lover will be like this, like this, like that.’’ In this way he will reach to the reality. Do you think it is very nice argument? Guest: (Hindi conversation with Prabhupada) He is not a bhakta. Prabhupada: Huh? Huh? Guest: He is not a bhakta, he is a scholar. Prabhupada: What is the nonsense scholar (laughter) if he does not know the truth? (Hindi) Mayaya apahrta-jnana. Scholar maybe superficially, but real knowledge is taken away by maya. Caitanya Mahaprabhu (Hindi) mayavadi-bhasya sunile haya sarva-nasa. If people hear him, then for good he will be lost in bewilderedness. (Hindi conversation) Why do you think you are sinner? (Hindi) Our theory is not that. Krsna is fighting, He is inducing fight against irreligiosity. Guest: (Hindi) Prabhupada: (Hindi) Mattah parataram nanyat kincid asti dhananjaya [Bg. 7.7] “There is no higher reality than Me.’’ Are we imaginists? Krsna says that mattah parataram nanyat kincid asti dhananjaya [Bg. 7.7]. “There is nothing,’’ I mean, “as higher reality that Me.’’ And these people are taking Him as murta-vigrahah, kalpana. (Hindi) Guest: (Hindi) Prabhupada: No. Why this word kalpana is there? That is, that is my point. Kalpana means something false imagination. Kalpana is not reality, and Krsna says that “There is no higher reality than Me.’’ And He became the subject matter of my kalpana. (Hindi) Guest: (Hindi) Prabhupada: (Hindi) Let it become reality. Guest: (Hindi) Prabhupada: Why this word should be used as kalpana? I don’t think the newspaper reporter can write in that way unless this word was actually spoken. Guest: This is Times? Hindustan? (Hindi conversation) Prabhupada: (Hindi) Guest: (Hindi) Prabhupada: Huh? Guest: He says imagination is the supermost. Prabhupada: (Hindi) Guest: (reading Hindi) Prabhupada: (Hindi conversation) Bhagavan is sac-cid-ananda vigrahah. Bhagavan says, aham sarvasya prabhavah, aham bija-pradah pita. (Hindi) sarva-yonisu kaunteya sambhavanti murtayah [Bg. 14.4] Aham bija-pradah pita. So practical experience (Hindi). Isvarah paramah krsnah sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah anadir adir govindah sarva-karana-karanam [Bs. 5.1]. (Hindi) They have been cut with two hands because I have got really two hands. (Hindi) Vasamsi jirnani yatha vihaya [Bg. 2.22]. (Hindi) Origin, I am spirit soul. (Hindi) Mamaivamso jiva-bhuta. (Hindi) Bhagavan katha mamaivamso. So bhagavan nirakara. Bhagavan avajananti mam mudhah, manusim tanum asritam. (Hindi) is for imagination. Guest: (Hindi conversation) Prabhupada: (Hindi) …program he, I shall return to the USA by the month of March. So, December, January, February. (Hindi conversation) Thank you very much. (Hindi) We are dealing with facts. (Hindi) The…, already everything is stated in the Bhagavad-gita. We have to simply explain them. That’s all. Explanation (Hindi). You cannot stop sunshine. That is not possible. But you close yourself in the dark room. It is not possible to cover Krsna. That is not possible. But by jugglery of words you close yourself in a dark room. (Hindi conversation) Oh, thank you. All right, thank you very much. Come on. No. (Hindi) Hare Krsna. Jaya. (Hindi conversation) [break] Guest: (indistinct) Any worship we first worship Lord Ganesa, India. Prabhupada: That is not necessary. That is not necessary. If we worship other demigods to fulfill our, some particular desire… (Hindi) There are different demigods they worship, but one who knows that “If I approach Krsna, the Supreme Lord, then everything is obtained…” Guest: You say a true devotee of Krsna, such a person need not go after the demigods? Prabhupada: No, no, no. Guest: Secondly… Prabhupada: There is no need. Guest: But if he goes after demigods… Prabhupada: If he wants some material profit. (Hindi conversation) So kamais tais tair hrta-jnanah prapadyante anya-devatah [Bg. 7.20] (Hindi) Guest: (Hindi) Prabhupada: Tulasi Dasa is different; therefore we don’t take Tulasi Dasa as authority. Guest: Not? Then, sir, there is Rama and there is Krsna. You have Hare Rama Hare Krsna. So Rama is Hari. Krsna is considered Hari. So when you… Prabhupada: So Rama… Bhagavan has different forms: ramadi-murtisu kala-niyamena tisthan [Bs. 5.39]. Bhagavan (Hindi). Guest: That’s good. So that explains… Prabhupada: Visnu-tattva. That is called Visnu-tattva. Guest: In that expansion can’t we take Durga and Siva, even for… Prabhupada: Yes. That is sakti-tattva. We have to take expansion according to the tattva. Substance and categories; in which category. The substance is Visnu, and all other tattvas are categories. So devatas, they are sakti-tattva, sakti category, the same category as you are. The same example. Just like here a government officer, he is also Indian gentleman, you are also Indian gentleman, but he has got his power on account of his high qualities. Similarly you can become also Durga. You can become Indra, Candra, Surya. So qualitatively the ant, you are a learned brahmana, they are all the same category. vidya-vinaya-sampanne brahmane gavi hastini suni caiva sva-pake ca panditah sama-darsinah [Bg. 5.18] A pandita knows that they are on the same jiva-tattva categories. Visnu-tattva, jiva-tattva, sakti-tattva, there are many tattvas. Brahman-tattva, paramatma-tattva, and Bhagavat-tattva, they are the substance, and all other tattvas, they are jiva-tattva, sakti-tattva, like that. So Bhagavan is not jiva-tattva, but others, they are jiva-tattva. Demigods, they are jiva-tattva. Brahma is also jiva-tattva. Devi is sakti-tattva. Jiva is also sakti-tattva. In one sense jiva-tattva is higher than this material sakti-tattva. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita: apareyam itas tu anyam viddhi me prakrtim parah jiva-bhutam maha-baho yayedam dharyate jagat (Hindi) Guest: For meditation, which form should we… Prabhupada: Meditation Visnu, Visnu form. Guest: (Hindi) Prabhupada: Yes. Visnu form is the objective. So, tad visnoh paramam padam sada pasyanti surayo. Visnu-tattva laksa(?), very good mantra. Om tad visnoh paramam padam sada pasyanti surayah diviva caksur atatam, like that. Guest: But in the Eleventh Chapter of the Gita… Prabhupada: Yes. Guest: …then Lord has shown His virat-darsana. Prabhupada: Yes. Guest: He has shown Brahma, Visnu, Mahesa, etc. They are all in Him. Prabhupada: Yes. Guest: Subordinate to Him. Prabhupada: You are also in Him. Guest: They are subordinate to Him. Prabhupada: Yes. Subordinate. Yes. Guest: Therefore to meditate on Krsna, the only Hare Krsna. Prabhupada: Yes. To meditate upon Krsna is the highest yogic principle. Guest: So that’s what I asked… Prabhupada: Generally yogis, they observe visnu-tattva, generally. Guest: For what… Prabhupada: But higher yogis, bhakta-yogis, they see only Krsna. Guest: Krsna. Prabhupada: Therefore Krsna says, yoginam api sarvesam mad-gatenantaratmana [Bg. 6.47] Guest: What is fit for lay people? Which form should we meditate upon? Prabhupada: For Kali-yuga, this is Krsna. Kirtanad eva krsnasya. Kali-yuga, kirtanad eva krsnasya. Guest: I asked which form, that is the form… Prabhupada: Krsna form. Guest: Krsna form holding murali(?) in His hand? Prabhupada: Yes. Venu, muralidhara. venum kvanantam aravinda-dalayataksam barhavatamsam asitambuda sundarangam kandarpa-koti-kamaniya-visesa-sobham govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami [Bs. 5.30] Guest: But when you chant “Rama,’’ the other… Prabhupada: Yes. Rama is another… There is no difference between Rama and Krsna. If you like… Guest: The form comes different in the… Prabhupada: Yes, but they are the same. Ramadi murti. Guest: For purpose of practice I am asking, when you chant Rama, should you have the form of Rama before you? Prabhupada: That, that depends on your affection. Bhagavan has got many forms. If you want, if you love Rama, that’s all right. If you love Krsna, that is all right. If you love Narayana, that is also all right. But Bhagavan murti, ramadi-murtisu. Guest: Along with Radhe? (Hindi) (laughter) Prabhupada: That is incongruency. Rama with Sita. Guest: Along with… Prabhupada: Huh? Guest: Krsna along with Radhika. Prabhupada: Krsna, Krsna with Radharani. Guest: Then what is Radha category? Prabhupada: The same sakti. Cit-sakti. Bhagavan ke pleasure potency. Sakti, sakti-tattva. So Saktiman. Bhagavan is Saktiman, and that sakti is Radharani or Sita or Laksmi. Durga is also sakti, another feature of Radharani. Guest: Sakti in original is Radha? Prabhupada: Yes. Parasya saktih…, parasya saktir vividhaiva sruyate. (Hindi) Originally cit-sakti. That cit-sakti is expanding. Just like we are…, ramadi murtisu kala-niyamena tisthan [Bs. 5.39] Kala means part and parcel. So we are also part and parcel, but we are very small part and parcel. But ramadi murti, they are bigger part and parcel. Just like if you throw one brick on the floor, so there will be so many small particles, big particles, this particle, that. They are all part and parcel of the brick, but one part very small atomic part, and one big part, this part, this part, then this part, then this part. So all, Krsna is the origin, and everyone is part and parcel. Some of them are bigger and some of them are smaller. So Visnu-tattva is almost like Krsna. Guest: Like Krsna. Prabhupada: Others, they are very small. So according to the size, or according to the power… Guest: Power. Prabhupada: …the part and parcel exercises his position. Some of them are Visnu-tattva, some of them are Jiva-tattva, some of them are Sakti-tattva and some of them para-tattva. Like that. Guest: Para-tattva? Prabhupada: Para-tattva. Guest: Means? Prabhupada: Para-tattva is Bhagavan. Para-tattva means Krsna, Rama, Narayana, Visnu. These are para-tattva. Bhagavan avatara, rama, nrsimha, varaha, kurma, vamana, dasavatara, all avatara. (Hindi) Or sakti-tattva, material energy, apara-tattva, matter. Similarly cit-tattva, spiritual world. The living entities, although they are in the material world, they belong to the spiritual world. Therefore Krsna says, apareyam. This material energy is inferior. Itas viddhi me prakrtim param. Beyond this there is another, superior energy, jiva-bhuta, that is jiva. Devotee: (indistinct) Prabhupada: Hm. Devotee: Ksirodakasayi-Visnu… Prabhupada: Huh? Devotee: Ksirodakasayi-Visnu is in which category? Prabhupada: He is para-tattva. Devotee: And, uh… Prabhupada: Any visnu-tattva is para-tattva. Guest: What is definition of (indistinct)? Prabhupada: Huh? Guest: Some people say that jiva is a, you see, surrounded by (indistinct). Prabhupada: (Hindi) False. False ego. He is misidentifying with this matter. He is not matter. So this ahankara, this identification, has to be purified by understanding himself that “I am brahman. I am not matter.’’ That is purification. And as soon as he is purified, brahma-bhuta. Now jiva-bhuta, but when he becomes brahma-bhuta, then he becomes jolly. Brahma-bhutah prasannatma [Bg. 18.54]. That is the symptom. Not that “I am realized Brahman.’’ But the symptom will be there. If he says, “I am very rich man,’’ then I’ll see what is the symptom, whether you have got a nice car, you have got many servants and “Oh, yes, you are rich man.’’ And if you are working on the street with a sweeper, how can I accept it? Guest: If I am that bad balances and (indistinct). (laughter) Prabhupada: Subject to your symptom. (laughter) (Hindi) Guest: (Hindi) Prabhupada: (Hindi) Guest: We’re just asking questions and questions. (indistinct) Endeavor to understand it. (indistinct) Prabhupada: Bhagavan’s rasa-lila is very confidential. It is not for ordinary man. (Hindi) So, step by step (Hindi). Radha-Krsna rasa-lila, Krsna with young girls dancing, embracing, kissing, just like ordinary novel and natha. They like it. So these professional Bhagavata readers, they take advantage of the people’s inferior quality, of their weakness, and make money. That’s all. Guest: That’s why I wanted to know… Prabhupada: Yes. They make money. Guest: …the real significance, that spiritual… Prabhupada: The significance…, there is no significance. These professional Bhagavata readers, they make money from the public because public wants to hear all these things. Just like we read a novel—a woman is embracing a man, or kissing or having sex. They like it. Therefore they go the Bhagavata Tenth Canto immediately. Their Bhagavata reading is professional, not understanding of Krsna. If you want to understand Krsna, then go step by step, one by one. First of all read Bhagavad-gita, try to understand, and you surrender to Krsna as Krsna says, then you enter. Just like after passing entrance examination you enter into the college. Similarly, when you are qualified in accepting Krsna as all in all, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam [Bg. 18.66], then you enter into Bhagavata. Bhagavata is the graduate study, not ordinary study. But these professionals, they take advantage of the weakness of the people, and they make profession and earn some money. That’s all. When we speak of Bhagavata we speak from First Canto, Second Canto, Third Canto…, the nine cantos to understand Krsna. Just like in First Canto the beginning, janmady asya yatah [Bhag. 1.1.1], om namo bhagavate vasudevaya, janmady asya yatah. This is Vedanta-sutra verse. Param satyam dhimahi. (Hindi) Krsna for perfect knowledge, then you’ll understand what is krsna-lila. (end)
with His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada
New Delhi, November 11, 1971