Talk with Bob Cohen Syamasundara: …1972 in Mayapura. Conversations between Srila Prabhupada and Bob, a Peace Corps worker, entitled “Perfect Questions, Perfect Answers.” [break] (Devotees are singing prayers to Lord Nrsimhadeva loudly over loudspeaker in background.) Prabhupada: …because he knows things as they are. Bob Cohen: (indistinct) …knows things as they are. Prabhupada: Huh? Bob: He hopes he knows things as they are. Prabhupada: No, he’s supposed to know. We approach to a scientist because he’s supposed to know the things right. (A loudspeaker is playing very loudly in the background.) Let them make a little soft. [break] (laughter) Great relief. (laughter) Bob: I have felt that the loudspeakers were too loud all day. Prabhupada: Yes. Bob: And I mentioned it to somebody. Prabhupada: It is pinching. Bob: Yeah. It loses some maybe transcendentalism through the amplifier. Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Ask them to make it softer. So scientist means one who knows things as they are. That is scientist. So Krsna means all-attractive. (Speaks to someone in Bengali) [break] So just like your daughter, she was also… I was little older, so I was beating her like anything. (laughter) (pause) So Krsna means all-attractive. Bob: All-attractive. Prabhupada: All-attractive. Bob: All-attractive. Prabhupada: Yes. So unless God becomes all-attractive, how He can become God? (pause) A man is important when he’s attractive. Is it not? Bob: It is so. Prabhupada: So, God must be attractive and attractive for all. Therefore, if God has got any name, or if you want to give any name to God, only “Krsna” can be given. Bob: But why only the name Krsna? Prabhupada: Because all-attractive. Krsna, this word, means all- attractive. Bob: Oh, I see. Prabhupada: Yes. God has no name, but by His quality we give His name. Bob: May He be called…? Prabhupada: Just like if a man is very beautiful, we call “beautiful.” If a man is very intelligent, we call him “wise.” So name is given according to the quality. Because God is all-attractive, therefore the only name Krsna can be applied to Him. Krsna means all-attractive. Bob: What about a name meaning “all-powerful”? Prabhupada: Yes. Attractive means… Unless you are powerful, how you can be attractive? (laughter) Acyutananda: It includes everything. Prabhupada: Includes everything. He must be very beautiful, He must be very wise, He must be very powerful, He must be very famous… Bob: Is Krsna attractive to rascals? Prabhupada: Oh yes. He was the greatest rascal also. Bob: How is this? Prabhupada: (laughing) Because he was teasing always the gopis. Syamasundara: Teasing? Prabhupada: Yes. The Radharani would go, because She was married and Krsna will attack Her. And when She fall down, “Krsna, don’t torture Me in that way,” She will fall down, and Krsna will take the opportunity and kiss her. (Prabhupada laughs) So from superficially, Radharani was very pleased, but superficially Krsna is a great, the greatest rascal. Unless rascaldom is not in Krsna, how rascaldom is there, existence in the world? Because our formula of God is that He’s the source of everything. Ask her not to talk. (Shouts at someone in Bengali) Katha kaibe na! Katha kaibe na. Unless rascaldom is not in Krsna, how it can be manifest. Because He’s the source of everything. But His rascaldom is so nice that everyone worships His rascaldom. Bob: But what about the rascals who are not so nice? Prabhupada: Huh? Bob: What about… Prabhupada: No, rascaldom is not nice. But Krsna is absolute God, therefore rascaldom is also good. Krsna is all-good. God is good. Bob: Yeah. Prabhupada: Therefore, when He becomes a rascal, that is also good. That is Krsna. Rascaldom is not good, but when it is practiced by Krsna, because He’s absolute good, that rascaldom is also good. That one has to understand. Bob: Are there some people who do not find Krsna attractive? Prabhupada: It is not the…, no question of some people. Krsna cannot be compared with some people. He’s God. Bob: No, do some people find Him not attractive? Prabhupada: Huh? Bob: Do some people find Krsna not attractive? Prabhupada: No. Anyone will find Him… Some people must be of some kind. You cite any kind of people, he’ll be attracted. Who’s not attracted? Just place a man, example, that “This man or this living entity is not attracted to Krsna.” Just find out. Bob: Somebody who wishes to do things in life that he may feel are wrong, but he wishes to do to gain power or prestige or money… Prabhupada: Yes. Bob: …may find God unattractive. He may not find the God attractive, because God gives him guilt. Prabhupada: No, not the God. Because he wants to be powerful, his attraction is to become powerful. A man wants to become powerful, or rich. Is that not? But nobody is richer than Krsna. Therefore, Krsna is attractive to him. Bob: So if a rich, if a person who wants to become rich prays to Krsna, will he become rich? Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Bob: He can become rich through this means. Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Because Krsna is all-powerful. If you pray to Krsna to become rich, Krsna will make you rich. Bob: But even if you do not live, even if you live an evil life you will still become rich? Prabhupada: Huh? Bob: If somebody lives an evil life but prays to become rich, they may still become rich? Prabhupada: Yes. Prays to Krsna, that is not evil. Bob: All right, I… Oh, yeah. Prabhupada: (chuckling) Somehow or other, he prays to Krsna, so you cannot say that He’s evil. Bob: Yeah. Prabhupada: Krsna says in the Bhagavad-gita, api cet suduracaro bhajate mam ananya-bhak. You have read it? Bob: Yeah. I think, the Sanskrit I don’t know, but the English maybe I do. Is it “Even if the most evil man prays to Me…” Prabhupada: Yes. Bob: “…then he will be elevated.” Prabhupada: Yes. Bob: Something like that. Prabhupada: Yes. So as soon as he begins to pray to Krsna, that is not evil. Therefore He is all-attractive. Syamasundara: Srila Prabhupada? Prabhupada: Why don’t you cover? Devotee: I covered the outside with a cloth, I didn’t want to disturb you; so I put thick cloth on the outside. Prabhupada: You have covered? Devotee: Yes. [break] Prabhupada: Kamsa… You know Krsna’s life? Bob: Not, not much. Prabhupada: Krsna’s mother… (pause—background noise is very loud) [break] …the Vedas that the Absolute Truth or the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the reservoir of all pleasure—raso vai sah. Everyone is hankering after something because he relishes some mellow in it. Bob: Excuse me? Prabhupada: Some mellow. Bob: Ah, some mellow. Prabhupada: Yes. Just like a man is drinking. Why he’s drinking? He’s getting some mellow out of that drinking. A man is hankering after money because by possessing money he gets a mellow out of it. Bob: What does mellow mean? Maybe I… Prabhupada: What is mellow? Devotees: Taste, pleasure. Bob: Oh, O.K. Prabhupada: Yes, pleasure. Pleasing taste. So Vedas say, raso vai sah. The exact Sanskrit translation of mellow is rasa. What is that? Malati: Eggplant fried. Prabhupada: Oh! (laughter) All-attractive! All-attractive! You are becoming all-attractive! Malati: No. Prabhupada: Yes, No more, no more! No more attraction! (laughing) Where is your all-attractive daughter? Malati: She is in all-attractive maya. Prabhupada: Actually, she’s all-attractive. (chuckling) Everyone loves her. [break] …Krsna, the Reservoir of All Pleasure. Bob: This must be a new book. Prabhupada: Yes. [break] Bob: Prabhupada said tonight again, he said, “Krsna is the greatest scientist.” And he said (indistinct) more that I remembered, but I can’t recall now. There was something else he said that stuck in my mind, I just can’t recall it. Can you remind me? Syamasundara: How is Krsna the greatest scientist? Prabhupada: Because He knows everything. A scientist means one who knows a subject matter thoroughly. He’s scientist. Krsna, He knows everything. Bob: You said… I told you I teach science. You had said something about teaching, or teaching of science. Prabhupada: Yes. Teaching, unless you have got perfect knowledge how you can teach? That is our proposition. Bob: Without perfect knowledge, though, you can teach what knowledge you have. Prabhupada: No, that is cheating. That is not teaching, that is cheating. Just like the scientists said, “There was a chunk, and the creation took place, perhaps…” What is this? Simply cheating. It is not teaching, it is cheating. Bob: Let me say what else you said this morning that was interesting. I asked him about miracles, and Prabhupada said that only a fool would believe in miracles because… Let us say you are a child and an adult lifts this table. That’s a miracle. Or you’re a chemist, and you combine acid and base and make smoke, an explosion or whatever. To somebody ignorant, that’s a miracle. And for everything there’s a process. And so when you see a miracle, it’s just ignorance of the process. So that only a fool would believe in miracles, and, you correct me if I say wrong… Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Bob: …that when Jesus came, the people then were somewhat more ignorant and needed miracles as aid. Was that… I wasn’t sure if that’s quite what you said. Prabhupada: Yes, yes, yes. Miracle means ignorant. Bob: I had asked this in relation to all the miracle men you hear about in India. Prabhupada: Krsna is the highest miracle man. Bob: Yes. Prabhupada: That is stated by Kunti. Bob: Without perfect knowledge, can I not teach some things? For example, I may… Prabhupada: You can teach up to that, which point you know. Bob: But should not claim to teach more than I know. Prabhupada: Yes, that is cheating. Yasodanandana: In other words, you can’t teach the truth… Prabhupada: Huh? Yasodanandana: …you can’t teach the truth with partial knowledge. Prabhupada: Yes. That is not possible by any human being. Because any human being, his senses are imperfect. So how he can teach perfect knowledge? Just like you see the sun like a disc. You have no means to approach the sun. If you say, “We can see the sun by telescope and this and that,” that is also made by you. And you are imperfect, your instrument is imperfect. Because that telescope you can say that you are seeing, but that machine is made by you, and you are imperfect. How your machine can be perfect? Therefore your knowledge of the sun is imperfect. So you don’t teach about sun unless you have got perfect. That is cheating. Bob: But what about to teach that it is supposed that the sun is 93,000,000 miles away? Prabhupada: As soon as you say “it is supposed,” it is not scientific. Bob: Yeah, but I think almost all of science, then, is not scientific. Because all science… (laughter) Prabhupada: That is the point. Bob: Oh, I see. Is based on, you know, suppositions of this or that. So imperfect knowledge may be taught… Prabhupada: Huh? Bob: Imperfect… Prabhupada: They’re teaching imperfect. Just like they are advertising so much about moon. Do you think the knowledge is perfect. Bob: No. Prabhupada: Then? Bob: What do you think is the proper duty of the teacher? Prabhupada: No more. Huh? Bob: What is the proper duty of the teacher in society? Let’s say a science teacher. What should he be doing in the classroom? Prabhupada: Classroom, you should simply teach about Krsna. Bob: He should not teach about… Prabhupada: No, that will include everything. But his aim should be how to know Krsna. Bob: Can a scientist teach the science of combining acid and alkaline and this kind of science with Krsna as its object? Prabhupada: How it can be? Bob: If you… When one studies science, one finds general tendencies of nature, and these general tendencies of nature point to a controlling force. Prabhupada: That I was explaining the other day. Where? In Madras, or where? “Who has supplied these chemicals?” Syamasundara: Ah, in Madras. Prabhupada: I asked one chemist that according to chemical formula, hydrogen and oxygen mixed, it becomes water. Is it not? Bob: That’s true. Prabhupada: Now, this vast water in the Atlantic Ocean and Pacific Ocean, how much chemicals were required? Bob: How much? Prabhupada: Yes. Bob: Oh, I don’t know. Prabhupada: How many tons? Bob: Many. Prabhupada: So who supplied it? Bob: This was supplied by God. Prabhupada: Somebody must have supplied. Bob: Yes. Prabhupada: So that is… You can teach like that. Bob: And should one bother teaching that if you combine acid and alkaline… Prabhupada: The same thing, the same thing, that now we have to…, that… There are so many effervescence. So, who is performing it? Who is supplying the acid and alkaline? (pause) Bob: So this comes from the same source as the water. Prabhupada: Um hmm. Yes. Water you cannot manufacture unless you have got hydrogen and oxygen. So here is a vast… Not only this Atlantic or Pacific, there are millions of planets, and there are millions of Atlantic and Pacific oceans. So who created this water with hydrogen and oxygen, and how it was supplied? That is our question. Somebody must have supplied; otherwise how it came to existence? Bob: But should it also be taught how you make water from hydrogen and oxygen? The procedure of burning them together, should this also be taught? That if you burn hydrogen and oxygen together… Prabhupada: That is secondary. Bob: Excuse me? Prabhupada: That is secondary. That is not very difficult. Just like this Malati made puri. So there is flour and there is ghee, and she made puri, but unless there is ghee and flour, where is the chance of making puri? (pause) In the Bhagavad-gita there is this, “Water, earth, air, fire, they are made of My energy.” Bob: Made of, what is that? Prabhupada: “My energy.” Bob: Ah. Prabhupada: (Bengali?) What is your body. This external body, that is your energy. Do you know that? The body is made out of your own energy. Just like I am eating. Bob: Yeah. Prabhupada: So I am creating some energy, and therefore my body is maintained. Bob: Oh, I see. Prabhupada: So therefore your body is made out of your energy. Bob: But when you eat the food, there is energy from the sun in the food… Prabhupada: No, that… I am giving the example, I am creating some energy by digesting the food and that is maintaining my body. Therefore my body is maintained by my energy. If your energy supply is not proper, then your body becomes not in proper order. Therefore the conclusion is that your body is made out of your own energy. Similarly, why this big gigantic body, universes, is not made of Krsna’s energies? How can you deny? As your body is made out of your energy, similarly, the universal body must be made by somebody’s energy. That is Krsna. (pause) Bob: I have to think about that. I have to think about it to follow that. Prabhupada: Why follow? It is a fact. (Bob laughs) Your hairs are growing daily. Why? Because you have got some energy. Bob: The energy I obtain from my food. Prabhupada: Somehow or other, you have obtained that energy. And through that energy your hairs are growing. So if your body is manufactured by your energy, similarly, the whole gigantic manifestation is made of God’s energy. It is a fact it is not your energy. Bob: Yeah. O.K. I see that. Syamasundara: Just like, aren’t the planets in this universe the sun’s energy, a product of the sun’s energy? Prabhupada: Yes. But who produced the sun? That is Krsna’s energy. Because it is heat, and Krsna says, bhumir apo ’nalo vayuh. Analah, analah, heating. “That is My energy.” The sun is representation of the heating energy of Krsna. It is not your energy. You cannot say that “The sun is made by me.” But somebody must have made. And Krsna says. So we believe therefore Krsna. Therefore we are Krsna- ites. Bob: Krsnites. Prabhupada: Yes. Our knowledge is perfect. You cannot say… If I say that “Heat is energy of Krsna,” you cannot defy it. Because it is not your energy. Just like in your body there is some certain extent of heat. Similarly… Heat is somebody’s body’s energy. And who is that body? That is Krsna. Krsna says, “Yes, it is My energy.” So my knowledge is perfect. Therefore I am the greatest scientist. Because I take the version of the greatest scientist, therefore I am greatest scientist. I may be fool personally, but because I take the knowledge from the greatest scientist, I am greatest scientist. I have no difficulty. Bob: Excuse me? Prabhupada: I have no difficulty to become the greatest scientist. Because I take the knowledge from the greatest scientist. (pause) [break] “This earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and ego—they are My eight separated energies.” Bob: They’re separate energies? Prabhupada: Yes. Brahmananda: Separated. Prabhupada: Separated. Separate, no? Just like this milk. What is this milk? The separated energy of the cow. Is it not? It is the manifestation of the separated energy of cow. Syamasundara: Is it like a by-product? Prabhupada: Yes. Bob: So what is the significance of this energy being separated from Krsna? Prabhupada: Separated means this is made out of the body of the cow, but is is not cow. That is separation. Bob: So this earth and all is made out of Krsna, but is not Krsna? Prabhupada: It is not Krsna. Or you can say, Krsna and not Krsna simultaneously. That is our philosophy. One and different. You cannot say different because these things without Krsna has no existence. At the same time you cannot say, “Then let me worship water. Why Krsna?” That the pantheists, they say, that “Because everything is God, so whatever I take, that is God worship.” The Rama-Krishna Mission says like that. But that’s wrong. Bob: The Rama-Krishna Mission says that? Prabhupada: Yes. And the Mayavadis. “Because everything is made of God, therefore everything is God.” That is their… But our philosophy is everything is God, but not God also. Bob: So what on earth is God? Is there anything on earth that is God? Prabhupada: Yes. Because it is made out of the energy of God. (pause) But (that) does not mean that anything you worship, you worship God. Bob: So what is on earth, though, is not maya. It is… Prabhupada: maya means energy. Bob: It means energy. Prabhupada: Yes. maya, another meaning: illusion. So foolish persons, the energy is accepted as the energetic. That is maya. Just like sunshine. Sunshine enters your room. Sunshine is the energy of the sun. But because the sunshine has entered in your room you cannot say the sun has entered. If sun enters, then your room and yourself, everything will be finished immediately. (laughter) You’ll not have the leisure to understand that sun has entered. Is it not? Bob: It is so. Prabhupada: But you cannot say that sunshine is not sun. But without sun, where is the sunshine? So you cannot say sunshine is not sun. But at the same time it is not sun. It is sun and not sun, both. That is our philosophy. Acintya-bhedabheda, inconceivable. In the material science you cannot conceive that a thing simultaneously positive and negative. That you cannot think. That is inconceivable energy. And because everything is Krsna’s energy, Krsna can manifest Himself from any energy, and act. Therefore, when we worship Krsna made of something of earth, water, or something like that, that is Krsna, that is not Krsn… You cannot say it is not Krsna. When you worship this metal form of Krsna, that is Krsna. That’s a fact. Because metal is energy of Krsna. Therefore it is non-different from Krsna. And Krsna’s so powerful that He can present Himself fully in His energy. So this Deity worship is not heathenism. It is actually worshiping God, provided you know the process. Bob: If you know the process, then the Deity becomes Krsna? Prabhupada: Yes. Not becomes, it (is) Krsna. Bob: The Deity is Krsna. Prabhupada: Yes. Bob: But only if you know the process of it. Prabhupada: Yes. Just like this electric wire is Krsna…, er, is electricity. One who knows the process he can derive electricity out of it. Syamasundara: Otherwise it’s just wire. Prabhupada: That’s all. Bob: So if I build a statue of Krsna, it is not Krsna. But if I, unless I know the process… Prabhupada: No, it is Krsna. But you have to know the process that it is Krsna. It is Krsna. Bob: It is not just earth and mud, it is Krsna… Prabhupada: No, earth… Earth has no separate existence without Krsna. Krsna says, “It’s my energy.” You cannot separate the energy and the energetic. It is not possible. You cannot separate heat from fire. But fire is different from the heat. And heat is different from the fire. You are taking heat, that does not mean you are touching fire. Fire, in spite of expanding heat, it keeps its identity. Similarly, Krsna by His different energies creating everything, He remains Krsna. The Mayavadi philosophers, they think, “If Krsna is everything, then Krsna’s separate identity is not there.” That is material thinking. Just like drinking this milk, so little, little, when I finish, there is no more milk. It has gone to my belly. Krsna is not like that. Because He’s omnipotent, we are utilizing His energy continually, but still He’s there, present. Just like a man begetting children unlimitedly, but the man is there. Crude example. But not that because he has produced hundreds of children, therefore he is finished. So similarly, God or Krsna, in spite of His unlimited number of children, He’s there. Purnasya purnam adaya purnam eva avasisyate. This is Krsna consciousness. Krsna is never finished. [break] …so powerful, therefore He is attractive. This is one side of the display of Krsna’s energies. Similarly, He has got unlimited energies. This study of Krsna’s energy is only one side, one portion only. So in this way if you go on studying Krsna, that is Krsna consciousness. It is not a bogus thing, that “maybe,” “perhaps not.” Absolutely. It is. Syamasundara: And the study itself is never finished. Prabhupada: No. How can you? Krsna has unlimited energy. [break] Bob: I’ve asked devotees about how they feel towards sex in their relations, and I under…, I see their way they feel, but I can’t see myself acting the same way. See, I’ll be getting married in this end of this summer. Prabhupada: Hmm? Bob: I’ll be getting married the end of this summer, in September or August, when I return to America. And the devotees say that the householders only have sex to conceive a child. And I cannot picture myself at all in such a position, and… What kind of sex life can one lead, living in the material world? Prabhupada: The Vedic principle is that one should avoid sex life altogether. The whole Vedic principle is to get liberation from this material bondage. And there are different attachments for this material enjoyment, out of which sex life is the source of topmost enjoyment. The Bhagavata says that this material world… Pumsah striya mithuni-bhavam etam. Means that a man is attached to woman and woman is attached to man. Not only human society, in animal society also. That attachment is the basic principle of material life. So, a woman is hankering or seeking after the association of a man, and a man is hankering or seeking the association of a woman. Just like we see the, all the fictions, novels, dramas, this cinema, or even ordinary advertisement, simply they depict the attachment between man and woman. Even in tailor’s shop you’ll find on the window some woman, some man. [break] So this attachment is already there. Bob: The attachment between man and woman. Prabhupada: Man and woman. So if you want to get liberation from this material world, then that attachment should be reduced to nil. Otherwise, simply for that attachment, you’ll have to take birth and rebirth, either as human being or as demigod or as an animal, as a serpent, as a bird, as a beast. You have to take birth. So this basic principle of attachment, increasing, is not our business. It is decreasing. Pravrttir esa bhutanam nivrttis tu maha-phalam. This is the general tendency, but if one can reduce and stop it, that is first class. Therefore our Vedic system is that first of all a boy is trained as a brahmacari, no sex life. Brahmacari. He goes to the teacher’s home. (pause—a devotee chanting Hare Krsna over loudspeaker is very loud.) Who is this? Stop it. [break] The whole principle is, Vedic principle is, to reduce it, not to increase it. Therefore the whole system is varnasrama-dharma. Our, the Indian system is called varna and asrama, four spiritual orders and four social orders. The social order is brahmacari, grhastha, vanaprastha, and sannyasa. Uh, this is spiritual order. And social order is brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, and sudra. So under this system the regulative principles are so nice that even one has got the tendency for enjoy material life, he is so nicely molded that at last he gets liberation and goes back to home, back to Godhead. This is the process. So sex life is not required on principle, but because we are attached to that, therefore there are some regulative principles. Sex life… It is said in the Srimad-Bhagavatam that pumsah striya mithuni-bhavam etam tayor mitho hrdaya-granthim ahuh ato grha-ksetra-sutapta-vittair janasya moho ’yam aham mameti [SB 5.5.8] It is said that this is the basic principle of material life: attachment for man or woman. And when they are united, when a man and a woman is united, that attachment becomes increased. And that increased attachment will induce him for grha, means home; ksetra, means land; suta, means children; apta, friendship, or society; and vitta, vitta means money. In this way, grha-ksetra-sutapta-vittaih, he becomes entangled. Janasya moho ’yam. This is the illusion. And by this illusion he becomes aham mameti [SB 5.5.8], “I am this body, and anything in relationship with this body, that is mine.” Bob: What is that again? Prabhupada: This attachment increases. The material attachment. The material attachment means “I am this body, and because I have got this body in a particular place, that is my country.” And that is going on. “I am American,” “I am Indian,” “I am German,” “I am this,” “I am that,” this bodily… “This is my country. I shall sacrifice everything for my country, society.” So in this way the illusion becomes increased. So under this illusion, when he dies he gets another body. That may be a superior body or inferior body according to his karma. So if he gets superior body, then that is also entanglement. Even if he goes to the heavenly planet, that is entanglement. And if he becomes cats and dogs, then his life’s lost. A tree. There is every chance. So this science is not known in the world, that how the soul is transmigrating from one body to another and how he’s being entrapped in different types of body. This science is unknown. Therefore when Arjuna was speaking from the bodily concept of life that “If I kill my brother, if I kill my grandfather, the other side…” So he was simply thinking on the basis of bodily concept of life. But when it was not solved he surrendered to Krsna, accepted Him as spiritual master. And when Krsna became his spiritual master He chastised him in the beginning. Asocyan anvasocas tvam prajna-vadams ca bhasase [Bg. 2.11], that “You are talking like learned man, but you are a fool number one because you are talking on the bodily concept of life.” So this sex life increases the bodily concept of life. Therefore the whole process is to reduce it to nil. Bob: To reduce it over the stages of your life? Prabhupada: Yes. Reduce it, just like a boy is trained up as a student up to twenty-five years, restricting sex life. Brahmacari. So, some of the boys they remain naisthika-brahmacari. He, because he’s given education, so if he becomes fully conversant he doesn’t like to marry. But one who has not such restraint, he’s allowed to marry. That is also restricted, that he cannot have sex life without being married. Therefore in the human society there is marriage, not in the animal society. But we are reducing human society gradually to animal society. We are forgetting marriage. That is also written in the sastras. Svikara eva codvahe. In the Kali-yuga there will be no marriage performances, but the boy and the girl, they’ll simply agree to live together. Dampatye ’bhirucir hetuh. And their relationship will exist on sexual power. If the man or the woman is deficient in sex life, then there is divorce. So on this philosophy… There are many western philosophers like Freud and others. They have written so many books. But according to Vedic culture, we are not interested. We are interested only for begetting children. That’s all. Not to study the psychology of sex life. There is already psychology, pravrtti, natural. Even if one does not read any philosophy, he’ll be sexually inclined. There is no need of philosophizing sex life. Nobody is taught sex life in the school and the colleges, but everyone knows it, how to do it. (laughs) So pravrttir esa bhutanam nivrttis tu maha-phalam. That is the general tendency. But education should be given to stop it. That is real education. (pause) Bob: That, for today, is a radical concept, for nowadays. Prabhupada: Hmm? Bob: Presently, in America that’s a radical concept. Prabhupada: Well, in America there are so many things which requires thorough reformation. And this Krsna consciousness movement is that. When I went to your country, so I saw these boys and girls, they’re living like friends. I said that “You cannot live as friends; you must get yourself married.” Bob: Many people see that even marriage is not sacred. So they find no desire to… Because people get married, and if things are not proper they get divorced so very easy… Prabhupada: Yes, that also. Bob: …that some people feel to get married is not meaningful. Prabhupada: No, the idea is that marriage is not sacred. They think marriage is a legalized prostitution. They think like that, but marriage is not that. Even that Christian paper, what is that, “Watch…?” Syamasundara: Christian…“Watchtower?” Prabhupada: “Watchtower.” It has criticized, one priest has allowed the marriage between man to man, homosex. So these things are going on. They take it purely for prostitution. That’s all. So therefore people are thinking, “What is the use of keeping a regular prostitution at a cost of heavy expenditure? Better not to have this.” Syamasundara: You use that example of the cow and the market? Prabhupada: Yes, when the milk is available in the market, what is the use of keeping a cow? (laughter) It is a very abominable condition. In the western countries I have seen. Here also, in India, gradually it is coming to be so. (Speaks to someone in Bengali) [break] …movement is especially meant for making human life, reaching the real goal. Bob: The real goal? Prabhupada: The real goal of life. Bob: Is the real goal of life to know God? Prabhupada: Yes. Bob: So that is the real goal, to know God. Prabhupada: Yes. Go back to home, back to Godhead. That is real goal of life. Just like the water coming from the sea as cloud falls down as rain and the actual goal is to flow down the river and again go to the sea. So we have come from God. Now we are embarrassed in this material life. Therefore the aim should be how to get out of this embarrassment and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is real goal of life. mam upetya tu kaunteya duhkhalayam asasvatam napnuvanti mahatmanah samsiddhim paramam gatah [Bg. 8.15] That is the version of Bhagavad-gita. “If anyone comes back to Me,” mam upetya kaunteya… Mam upetya tu kaunteya duhkhalayam asasvatam, napnuvanti, “he does not come back again.” Where? In this place, duhkhalayam asasvatam [Bg. 8.15] This place is the abode of miseries. Everyone knows, but he has become fooled, befooled by so-called leaders. This is miserable life, material life. So duhkhalayam… Krsna says, God says, that this place is duhkhalayam, it is a place of miseries. And that also asasvatam. You cannot make a compromise, “All right, let it be miserable. I shall remain as American or Indian.” No. That you also cannot do. You cannot remain as American. You may think that you are born in America, you are very happy. But you cannot remain as American for long. You’ll have to be kicked out of the place, and next life you do not know. Therefore it is duhkhalayam asasvatam [Bg. 8.15]. That is our philosophy. Bob: But when you have some knowledge of God, then life is not so miserable. Prabhupada: No, some knowledge will not do. You must have perfect knowledge. Janma karma me divyam yo janati tattvatah. Tattvatah means perfect. That perfect knowledge is being taught in the Bhagavad-gita. So, we are giving chance to the human society to learn Bhagavad-gita as it is and make his life perfect. That is Krsna consciousness movement. What your science says about the transmigration of the soul? Bob: I think that science cannot deny it, by scientific methods cannot deny it, or does scientific method show it. Science does not know of it. Prabhupada: Therefore I say, imperfect science. Bob: Science may, though, say something. It is said in science that energy is never destroyed. It is just changed. Prabhupada: That’s all right, but how the energy is working in future, that science does not know. Bob: Yeah. Prabhupada: How the energy is diverted, how by different manipulation the energy is working differently. Just like electric energy, by different handling it is creating heater and it is creating cooler. Just opposite. But the same electric energy. So similarly, these energies, living energy, how it is being directed, which way it is going, how it is fructifying in the next life, so they do not know. They do not know. And in the Bhagavad-gita it is very simplified. Vasamsi jirnani yatha vihaya [Bg. 2.22]. You are covered by this dress, by this shirt. When this shirt is not workable you change it. Similarly, this body is just like shirt and coat, when it is no longer workable, we have to change. Bob: What is the “we” that has to change? What is constant between one life to the next? Prabhupada: That is soul. That is soul, “I”, what you are speaking, “you”, what I am speaking, identification, atma, or soul. Bob: My soul is different than your soul? Prabhupada: Yes. You are individual soul, I am individual soul. Bob: But you have removed yourself from karmic influences. If I was to remove myself from karmic influences, would our souls be the same or different? Prabhupada: Soul is the same. Just like you are under certain conception of life at the present moment. Just like your these countrymen. They were under certain conception of life. But by training they have taken another conception of life. So the ultimate training is how to become Krsna conscious. That is perfection. Bob: If two people are Krsna conscious, is their soul the same? Prabhupada: Soul is always the same. Bob: In each person. In each person is it the same? Prabhupada: Yes. [break] Soul, as spirit soul, pure soul, they are all equal. Even in animal. Therefore it is said, panditah sama-darsinah [Bg. 5.18], means those who are actually learned, they do not see the outward covering, either human being or animal. Bob: Oh, then they are all equal and the same, or just equal? Are they equal and the same, or are they just equal? Prabhupada: No, equal and the same. Qualitatively and quantitatively. Syamasundara: I thought there was also a difference. Prabhupada: Huh? Syamasundara: Isn’t there also individuality and difference? Prabhupada: Their individuality becomes different in accordance with the development of consciousness. Syamasundara: Oh. The soul before the development of consciousness… Prabhupada: Yes. So therefore, when one comes to Krsna consciousness, then there is no difference. [break] Because their aim is at that time how to… [break] …and that is nice. Bob: But they are the same because they are flowers. Prabhupada: Yes. Bob: In that sense. Prabhupada: Same. That is acintya-bhedabheda philosophy. That everything is one and different simultaneously. Bob: Now, if I may ask another question on this? Prabhupada: Yes. Bob: The soul may be, I have considered, somewhat a part of God. But my soul I do not feel, but at times I think I feel God. It’s… I’m here maybe, and you may say God is here. If the soul is inside me, then should I be able to feel God inside me? Not all of God I mean, but a… Prabhupada: Part of God. Bob: Yeah. Not to mean to say that I feel I am God, but to mean to say I feel that I am God… Prabhupada: (Speaks to someone in Bengali) [break] Bob: I was asking Prabhupada the meaning of the soul being part of God but I don’t feel my soul, God in me. But God may be here, separate, separate from me. But should I be able to feel God inside me because my soul is a part of God? Prabhupada: Yes, God is inside also. Bob: If I could feel God inside me, then I should be able to understand transmigration, I would think. Prabhupada: Hmm? Bob: If I could feel God inside me… Prabhupada: Yes… Bob: …feel this soul, then I should be… Prabhupada: God is everywhere. God is inside and outside also. That is to be known. Bob: And how do you feel God inside you? Prabhupada: That is, of course, not in the beginning. But you have to know it from the sastras by the Vedic information, as in the Bhagavad-gita it is said that isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese ’rjuna tisthati [Bg. 18.61] God is there in everyone’s heart. In the Brahma-samhita it is also said, andantara-stha-paramanu-caya… Not only in my heart, God is also within the atom. So this is the first information. And then, by yogic process you have to realize it. Bob: Yogic process. Prabhupada: Yes. Paramatma realization. Bob: Is chanting Hare Krsna such a yogic process for realizing this? Prabhupada: Yes, it is also yoga, yogic process. Bob: What kind of yogic process must I do to find out, to feel this information, to feel the soul inside? Prabhupada: Yes, there are many different yogic processes, but for this age this process is very nice. Bob: Chanting. Prabhupada: Yes. Bob: Through this I can feel not only God outside, but God inside? Prabhupada: You understand everything of God. How God is inside how God is outside, how God is working—everything will be revealed. Sevonmukhe hi jihvadau svayam eva sphuraty adah. By the service attitude God will reveal Himself. You cannot understand God by your endeavor. If God reveals. Just like when the sun is out of your sight you cannot see the sun by your torchlight or any light. Any amount of scientific method, you cannot see the sun at night. But in the morning you can see the sun automatically, without any torchlight. Similarly, you have to create a situation, you have to put yourself in a situation wherein God will reveal. Not that by your method you can ask God, “Please come. I will see.” No, God is not your order carrier. Bob: You must please God for Him to reveal, is that correct? Prabhupada: Yes. Sevonmukhe hi jihvadau. Syamasundara: How do we know when God is pleased? Prabhupada: Huh? Syamasundara: How do we know when God is pleased, when we are pleasing God? Prabhupada: When you see Him. (pause) Then you’ll understand. Just like when you eat you needn’t require to ask anybody whether you are feeling strength or your hunger is satisfied. If you eat, you understand that you are satisfied, you are feeling strength, you’re feeling energy. It doesn’t require to inquire anyone. Similarly, if actually, if you serve God, then you’ll understand that “God is dictating me. God is, I am seeing God.” Brahmananda: Or God’s representative. Prabhupada: Huh? Brahmananda: Or God’s representative. Prabhupada: Yes. Brahmananda: Becomes easier. Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore you have to go through the God’s representative. Yasya prasadad bhagavat-prasadah **. If you please God’s representative, then automatically God becomes pleased. That is a… That you can directly see. Huh? Indian man: How to please God’s representative? Prabhupada: You have to carry out his order. That’s all. God’s representative is guru. So he’s asking you to do this, to do that. If you do that, that is pleasing. Yasyaprasadan na gatih kuto ’pi. If you displease him, then you are nowhere. Therefore we worship guru. Saksad-dharitvena samasta-sastrair uktas tatha bhavyata eva sadbhih **. A guru should be accepted as God. That is the injunction of all sastras. Bob: The guru should be accepted as representative of God? Prabhupada: Yes, guru is representative. Guru is the external manifestation of Krsna. Bob: But different than, like the incarnations of Krsna that come? Prabhupada: Yes. Bob: In what way is the external manifestation of the guru different than the external manifestation of, let us say, Krsna or Caitanya when They come to earth. Prabhupada: Guru is one, representative of Krsna. So there are symptoms who is guru. The general symptoms are described in the Vedas. Tad-vijnanartham gurum evabhigacchet, srotriyam brahma-nistham [MU 1.2.12]. The first symptom is srotriyam. Guru is in disciplic succession. One who has thoroughly heard about the Vedas through his spiritual master. This is general description. So another description is in the Bhagavatam: tasmad gurum prapadyeta jijnasuh sreya uttamam sabde pare ca nisnatam brahmany upasamasrayam [SB 11.3.21] Generally, the guru’s symptom is that he’s a perfect devotee. That’s all. And he’s serving Krsna by preaching His message. Bob: Lord Caitanya, He was not a guru, He was different than guru? Prabhupada: He’s guru. Bob: Lord Caitanya, He was a different type of guru than you were? Prabhupada: No, no. Guru cannot be different types. All gurus are of one type. Bob: But He was, was He also an incarnation at the same…? Prabhupada: Yes, He is Krsna Himself, but He is representing as guru. Bob: I see. Prabhupada: Yes. Bob: And then. Prabhupada: Because Krsna, as God, He demanded that sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66] But people misunderstood Him. Therefore Krsna again came as guru and taught people how to surrender to Krsna. Syamasundara: Doesn’t He say in the Bhagavad-gita, “I am the spiritual master”? Prabhupada: Huh? Syamasundara: Doesn’t Krsna say “I am the spiritual master”? In Bhagavad-gita it says… Prabhupada: Yes, He’s the original spiritual master. Because He has accepted spiritual master of Arjuna. So what is the difficulty? Sisyas te ’ham sadhi mam tvam prapannam. “I am your disciple.” So unless He’s spiritual master, how Arjuna becomes His disciple? He’s the original guru. Tene brahma hrda adi-kavaye, in the Bhagavata. That He gave instruction about Vedas in the heart of Brahma. So He’s guru. Bob: Krsna. Prabhupada: Yes, He’s the original guru. Then His disciple Brahma is guru. Then his disciple Narada is guru. Then his disciple Vyasa is guru. In this way there is guru-parampara. Evam parampara praptam, the transcendental knowledge is received through the disciplic succession. Bob: So a guru receives his knowledge through the succession, not directly from Krsna. Do you receive some knowledge directly from Krsna? Prabhupada: Yes, Krsna’s direct instruction is there, Bhagavad-gita. Bob: I see, but… Prabhupada: But you have to learn it through the disciplic succession; otherwise you’ll misunderstand. Bob: But presently you do not receive information directly from Krsna. It comes through the succession from the books? Prabhupada: Yes. There is no difference. Suppose if I say that this is a pencil. And if you say to him, “This is a pencil.” And he says to another man, “This is a pencil.” Then what is the difference between his instruction and my instruction? Bob: Krsna’s mercy allows you to know this now? Prabhupada: No, Krsna’s mercy you can take also, provided it is delivered as it is. Now, just like we are instructing people Bhagavad-gita. The Bhagavad-gita says, Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. Now we are saying that “You give up everything, just surrender to Krsna.” So therefore there is no difference between Krsna’s instruction and our instruction. There is no deviation. So if you receive knowledge in that perfect way, then it is as god as receiving the instruction directly from Krsna. But you don’t change anything. Bob: When I pray faithfully and reverently, does Krsna hear me? Prabhupada: Yes. Bob: Directly? Prabhupada: Yes. Bob: From me to Him? Prabhupada: Because He’s within your heart, He’s always hearing you. When you are praying or not praying, you are doing some nonsense, He also hearing. And when you pray, that is very good, welcome. But even if you are doing some nonsense, He’s hearing. Bob: Is praying louder than nonsense? Prabhupada: Huh? Bob: To Krsna’s ear, is praying louder than nonsense talk. Prabhupada: No, He’s all-perfect. He can hear any temper, or any degree of saying. Even if you don’t speak, even if you simply think, He can hear you. As soon as you think that “I shall do it,” then He hears you. Sarvasya caham hrdi sannivistah. Bob: But one should pray, is that so? That one should… Prabhupada: That is his business. Bob: Excuse me? Prabhupada: That is his business. Bob: Listening? Prabhupada: Praying. Bob: Whose business? You mean… Prabhupada: Every living entity’s. That is the only business. Eko bahunam vidadhati kaman. That is the statement of the Vedas. Bob: What does that mean? Prabhupada: He supplies everything. Everyone, actually He’s supplying. He’s supplying food to everyone. So He’s father. So why should you not pray, “Father, give me this”? Just like in Christian Bible there is, “Father, give us our daily bread.” That is good, they are accepting the Supreme Father. But grown-up children, they should not ask from the father, but they should be prepared to serve the father. That is bhakti. Bob: My questions you solve so nicely. (Mild laughter) Prabhupada: Thank you very much. Bob: So, should I ask you another question now? Prabhupada: Oh, yes, yes. Bob: I have read that we are influenced by the different gunas, passion, ignorance, …[break] Prabhupada: (Speaks to someone is Bengali) [break] Bob: I’ve read about there are three gunas, passion, ignorance, and goodness, in life. And I was wishing that you could explain this somewhat, especially what is meant by the mode of ignorance and the mode of goodness. Prabhupada: Goodness means you can understand things. Knowledge. You can know that there is God, that this world is created by Him, and so on, so on, so many things, actual things. The sun is this, the moon is this, perfect knowledge. Even not perfect, he has got some knowledge. That is goodness. And passion means he identifies with this material body. And he tries to gratify his senses only. That is passion. And ignorance means animal life. He does not know what is God, how to become happy, “why I am in this world.” Just like you are taking one animal to the slaughterhouse, it will go. But a man will protest. So this is ignorance. The goat, it is to be killed after five minutes, but if you give him a morsel of grass he’s happy, he’s eating. Just like a child. You are planning to kill her or kill him, he is happy, he’s laughing, because innocent. That is ignorance. Bob: This is… Being in these modes determines your karma, is that correct? Prabhupada: Yes. Bob: Determines your karma. Prabhupada: According to the association of the modes of nature your activities are being contaminated. Karanam guna-sango ’sya sad-asad-yoni-janmasu. A man gets higher birth or lower birth according to the association of the guna, or the modes of nature. Bob: So cheating and like that, what mode is that? Prabhupada: Huh? Bob: Cheating. Prabhupada: Cheating is mixed up passion and ignorance. Just like one man cheats other. That means he wants to obtain something. He’s passionate. But he commits some murder. He does not know that “I’ll have to suffer for it.” So it is a mixture of passion and ignorance. Bob: And what about when somebody helps another person? Prabhupada: That is goodness. Bob: Why is that goodness? What intelligence is that? I mean, is,… This represents knowledge of what? You said that goodness is when you have knowledge, intelligence. Prabhupada: Yes. Bob: So helping another person… Prabhupada: That means he’s ignorant, you’re trying to enlighten him. Bob: So giving intelligence… Prabhupada: Yes, that is goodness. Bob: What about just giving assistance, like you give…? Prabhupada: That is also goodness. Bob: To a beggar who has nothing you give alms. Prabhupada: Um hmm. So that is goodness. But still… Just like in your Bowery Street, they give some charity, and immediately he purchases one bottle of wine and drinks and lie down flat. (laughter) So that is charity… That is not goodness, that is ignorance. Bob: That charity is ignorance. Prabhupada: Yes. There are three kinds of charities: goodness, passion, and ignorance. Goodness means charity where charity must be given. Just like this Krsna consciousness movement. So if anyone gives charity to this movement, that is goodness. Because it is spreading God consciousness, Krsna consciousness. That is goodness. And if one gives charity for some return, that is passion. And if somebody gives in charity, he does not know what he’s going to do, just like the Bowery man, that is ignorance. So our Vedic principle is, Krsna says, that yat karosi yaj juhosi dadasi yat kurusva mad-arpanam. That “Give Me.” There is no question of knowing what is going to happen. If Krsna takes, that is the perfection of charity. Or anyone who is representative of Krsna, he takes, that is perfection. Bob: And what kind of charity is it when you give to, food to somebody who is hungry? Prabhupada: Well, that is also depends on goodness and passion and ignorance. That example I was giving, that a doctor has forbidden that “This patient should not take any solid food.” But if you make charity, “Oh, he…” And he’s asking “Give me some solid…” Sometime patient asks. And if you give him solid food, then you are not doing good to him. That is ignorance. Bob: Are the devotees beyond accumulating karma? Have they… Does a devotee, these devotees, do they feel karma? Do they work in these modes? Are they in the mode of goodness? Prabhupada: Huh? Bob: Are the devotees… Prabhupada: They are above goodness. Suddha-sattva. Devotees are not in this material world. They’re in the spiritual world. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita. mam ca yo ’vyabhicarena bhakti-yogena sevate sa gunan samatityaitan brahma-bhuyaya kalpate [Bg. 14.26] Devotees are neither in the goodness, passion, or ignorance. They are transcendental to all these qualities. Bob: This is a devotee who practices very faithful… Prabhupada: Huh? Bob: A devotee who is very faithful reaches this stage? Prabhupada: Yes. Devotee, you can become devotee, as they have become. It is not difficult. Simply you have to engage yourself in the transcendental loving service of the Lord. That’s all. Bob: I wish to gain more knowledge of God and be able to feel God’s presence more. The reason for this is because I feel life has little meaning without this. Prabhupada: Yes. If you miss this human form of life, then it is a great loss. This is a chance given to the living entity to get out of the entanglement of material existence. Bob: As I feel now… Prabhupada: (Speaks to someone in Bengali) [break] Bob: …thankful that I’ve been able to… Prabhupada: Yes, you can learn more and more. Bob: Now I still have my connections in home. Marriage is… I’m engaged and all this… Prabhupada: No, no. There are so many marriages. He is married. Marriage is no barrier. I told you, there are four different orders of social life: brahmacari, grhastha, vanaprastha, and sannyasa. So after brahmacari, one can marry. But that is not obligatory. He may remain naisthika-brahmacari for whole life. But a brahmacari can marry. So after marriage there is vanaprastha life. Means little aloof from family. Live—husband and wife—separately. That time there is no sex life. And then, when he’s fully renounced, detached from the family life, he takes sannyasa. Bob: Does somebody forget his wife completely then? Prabhupada: Yes. Forgetting is not very difficult if you try to forget. That’s all. Out of sight, out of mind. (laughter) Just like I have got my wife, children, my grandchildren, everything. But out of sight, out of mind. That’s all. Therefore vanaprastha, sannyasa. Everything is nicely arranged by the Vedic system. [break] Prabhupada: You are feeling warm? Bob: Just tight. Prabhupada: Too tight. Bob: I was cold before. [break] (Loudspeaker in background is very loud) Thank you so much for allowing me to ask my questions. Prabhupada: No, that is my mission, that people should understand the science of God. Because I am convinced that it’s a fact. That without again cooperating with the Supreme Lord, our life is baffled. I give this example many times. Just like a screw from the machine fallen down, it has no value. The same screw, when it is again attached with the machine, it has value. Similarly, we are part and parcel of God. Without God, as part and parcel small screw, what is the value? No value. We should again come back to the position of becoming a screw. That is our mission. Bob: I met a fellow today who came in the afternoon. Well, his reason for coming he said, you may find humorous, was to come…, he heard the hippies were in Mayapura. Prabhupada: Huh? Bob: He heard that hippie… [break] …I was talking to him, and then some devotees were talking to him. And he had said some things to me which I could find no answer for. And he said he’ll come back tomorrow to see devotees. But let me tell you. This is confusing. When he was young… Prabhupada: He’s Indian? Bob: Indian, Indian, lives nearby. He speaks English fairly well. When he was young, said he worshiped Kali every day very vigorously. But then the floods all came, and the floods came, and the people saw hardship. But now he has no religion, and he says he finds his happiness in trying to develop love among people. And I couldn’t think of what to say to him to add religion to his life, to add God to his life. He says, “After the hereafter,” he says, after he dies, “so maybe I’ll become part of God, maybe not,” he says, but he can’t worry about it now. He says he’s tried this religious experience; it didn’t work. And one reason I ask this is when I go back to America a lot of people I come across are like this. They see that religion, like his worship of Kali or other kinds of religion that they’ve experienced doesn’t work. And I don’t know what to say to them to convince them that it’s worth trying. Prabhupada: Hm. You do not try to convince him at the present moment. You try to be convinced yourself. Bob: (laughs) Yes, yes. I did… I asked him to see devotees, but then on the way out as he was leaving down the road I met him again and talked, “Come back,” but… Oh, I see. Prabhupada: You first of all be convinced and then try to convince others. Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s instruction is that you can do welfare for others when your life is success. bharata-bhumite haila manusya-janma yara janma sarthaka kari’ kara para-upakara [Cc. Adi 9.41] Janma sarthaka kari. First make your life perfect, and then try to make others, preach. [break] Bob: The devotees have said to me that without consciousness of Krsna all the time, you cannot be happy. Without consciousness of Krsna you cannot be happy. But at times I feel happy. Prabhupada: At times, not always. Bob: Yes. Prabhupada: But if you be Krsna conscious you’ll feel always happy. Bob: Oh. (laughter) They had implied that you cannot feel happy without Krsna consciousness. Prabhupada: That’s fact. Just like if you are an animal of this land and if you are thrown into the water, you cannot be happy in the water in any condition. When you’re again taken up to the land, then you’ll be happy. Similarly, we are part and parcel of Krsna. We cannot be happy without being part and parcel of Krsna. Now we are thrown. The same example. The machine part and parcel without the machine has no value. But when it is put again into the machine it has value. Similarly, we are part and parcel of Krsna; we must join Krsna. So you can join immediately with Krsna by your consciousness. Simply thinking that “I am Krsna’s, Krsna’s mine.” That’s all. Bob: What is that… Prabhupada: “Krsna is mine.” Bob: Mind, yes. Prabhupada: “Mine. My Krsna.” Bob: Ah. Prabhupada: “Krsna is mine, Krsna is mine, and I am Krsna’s.” That is our actual position. Bob: We are part of Krsna. Prabhupada: Yes. Everything is part and parcel of Krsna. Because everything is generated by the energy of Krsna. And everything is energy of Krsna. [break] …tomorrow fasting. Bob: Tomorrow’s fasting? Acyutananda: Tomorrow we fast. Up until evening. Prabhupada: Up to evening. Acyutananda: Until the moon comes. Then we take ekadasi or feast? Prabhupada: You can feast. Feast. Acyutananda: So we’ll fast up until the rising of the moon and then take feast, full prasadam. [break] Tamala Krsna: Sometimes it happens that one day out of the week all the shops close except for one. I’ve experienced in India that all the… [break] Bob: …the people coming and jumping on each other trying to get, afraid that the prasadam would finish before they got served. Prabhupada: No, assure them that we can… “Don’t be jumping. We shall supply you.” What can be done? [break] …the place where we shall perform sacrifice, fire sacrifice, the tablet should be taken there and we shall worship. And then we place it. Tamala Krsna: We’ll carry the tablet. Prabhupada: Yes. Tamala Krsna: To the sacrifice place. Prabhupada: We shall place the in… what is called, paraphernalia? And then begin. So ten feet deep and six feet wide. So you have ordered for bricks and cement? (loudspeaker in background very loud) Tamala Krsna: I was speaking with Mr. Sanyal and he also agreed that by having a man come here and make the bricks, we can save fifty percent. Prabhupada: So try to find out. [break] You can talk. [break] (A devotee is speaking in Bengali over the loudspeaker and Prabhupada mimics him, everyone laughs.) Mahamsa? Who is speaking, Mahamsa speaking or Bardon? [break] Indian man: Srila Prabhupada, I have one question. What is the purpose of service minus devotion? Prabhupada: Hmm? That is not service; that is business. (laughter) Just like we have employed some contractor. That is not service; that is business. Is it not? Indian man: Certainly. Prabhupada: Yes. Just like sometimes they advertise: “Our customers are our master.” Is it not? Sometimes advertise. So this is business, but it is a flowery language only that “Our customers are our masters.” Because nobody is a qualified customer unless he pays. Hmm? But service is not like that. Service, Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, aslisya va pada-ratam pinastu mam, “Oh, You do whatever You like; still, You are my worshipable Lord.” That is service. “I don’t ask any return from You.” That is service. When you expect some return that is business. (pause) Very nice road. [break] Bob: I wish to ask you to advise me on how I can come to feel closer to God. I’ll be leaving you soon, and I’m… With you… Prabhupada: You have to purify. Bob: Somewhat, but let me say I come to the temple at times and then I leave, and I’m not sure how much I take with me. Prabhupada: It will not take much time. Within six months you’ll realize. But you have to follow the regulative principles. Then it will be auspicious. Just like these boys and girls are doing. Just see the girl, how she’s chanting always. All our girls is… Bob: Yeah, I’ve seen… Prabhupada: They have no tendency for going to cinema or going to hotel, no. Everything all stopped. Anartha-nivrttih. Anartha means unnecessary things, all rubbish. Bob: I feel that when I go back, though… Prabhupada: The whole human life is meant for purifying. Suddhyed sattva. Sattva means existence. So if you don’t purify your existence, then you’ll have to change your body, from this body to that. Sometimes it may be higher, sometimes lower. Just like, if you don’t cure your disease, it can take turn in so many ways to put you into trouble. Similarly, if you don’t purify your existence, then you’ll have to transmigrate from one body to another. And there is no guarantee what kind of body you’ll get. Very subtle laws of nature. Now there is no guarantee that you will get a very comfortable body or American body, no. Therefore for human being it is essential that he should purify his existence. Tapo divyam putraka yena sattvam suddhyed yasmad brahma-saukhyam tv anantam. Unless you purify your existence, you’re hankering after happiness, you cannot get continued happiness. That is not possible. Bob: When I go, I go back to my job in New York, I hope I’ll become purer, but I’m sure that I won’t become as pure as your devotees here. I don’t see myself doing that. Prabhupada: You can do as they are doing. They were not pure in the beginning. Now they are pure. Similarly, you can become pure. Just like in your childhood age you were not educated; now you are educated. Bob: So what are the things that I may do? See, if when I go back I must… Prabhupada: Where you go back? Bob: I’ll be going back to Chaibasa, Behar, and to my work there. Prabhupada: What is there in Chaibasa? Bob: That’s where I do my teaching. I live there with… Prabhupada: So better do not teach. Because you do not know what to teach. Bob: I have, I’m actually, I’ll be going… I don’t like this so much and I’ll be returning to America in May. But while I’m here, this is my agreement to stay in India, that I… Prabhupada: (Referring to microphone) It will not stay. No, if you are serious, you can keep yourself pure anywhere. It doesn’t matter whether you stay in America or India. But you must know how to keep yourself purified. That’s all. Bob: You mean by following these principles. Prabhupada: Yes. Just like I went to America. So either in America or in India, I am the same man. Bob: I have tried somewhat to follow since I met you the first time. Prabhupada: But follow… You must strictly follow if you are serious. Bob: Maybe… O.K., maybe what I say now is the most foolish of all I’ve said, but let me tell you how I feel. Prabhupada: No, no, not foolish. I don’t say foolish. But imperfect. Bob: O.K., imperfect. But let me tell you. I feel that right now I admire and respect your devotees, but I don’t feel as if I’m part of them or even a great desire to be part of them. I feel that I just want to do what is right and come closer to God, and if I just go to a better life next time, I’d be satisfied. Prabhupada: Very good life. Bob: Maybe that’s just material clinging. Prabhupada: So just you follow in their footsteps, my other students, and it will be fulfilled, your desire. We are training to that direction, how to become purified and happy. That is our mission. We want to see everyone happy. Sarve sukhino bhavantu. But people do not know how to become happy. They do not take the standard path to become happy. They manufacture their own way. That is the difficulty. Tapo divyam putraka yena suddhyed sattva yasmad brahma-saukhyam anantam. This advice was given by Rsabhadeva to his sons. “My dear boys, just undergo austerity,” divyam, “for transcendental realization.” Everyone is going austerity. This boy, I know, he had to go foreign countries to learn this commercial management. So many… So now he’s good situated. But everyone has to undergo some austerity for future life. So why not take that austerity for permanent happiness? Tapo divyam putraka yena satt… Permanent happiness, you have to purify your existential body. This body, so long you will accept this material body, you’ll have to change it. And as soon as you get a spiritual body there is no question of change. Spiritual body you have already. Simply now, due to our material contamination, we are developing material body. But if we associate with spiritual life, then we shall develop spiritual body. The same example I have several times given, that you put the iron rod with fire, it will develop to be fire. Is it not? Bob: Put the iron rod into fire… Prabhupada: Yes, and it will become fire. Bob: Yes… Prabhupada: Although iron rod. Bob: Yes. Prabhupada: Similarly, this body, if you always keep yourself spiritually engaged, it will act as spiritual, although it is material body. The same example. Iron rod, when it is red hot, it is not longer iron rod, although it is iron rod. You can catch it as iron rod, but touch anywhere it will burn. It has got the quality of fire. Similarly, if you always keep yourself in Krsna consciousness then you become spiritualized. You’ll act spiritually. No more material demands. Bob: How do I do this? Prabhupada: This process, as they are doing. You have seen. These boys are, our six boys, they are now initiated today. It is very simple. You have to follow the four restrictive regulations and chant this beads. Very easy. Bob: Well, um, but… See, when I’m back in Bihar and following my lifestyle there, I…, if I follow all these regulative principles… Some I follow now, but not all… But if I follow all… Prabhupada: Some means? Bob: Some… Prabhupada: There are only four regulative principles. Some means three, or two? Bob: Two or three. Prabhupada: So why not other one? Bob: No, no, I mean I follow one or two now. One or two now I follow. Prabhupada: (laughs) Why not the other three? What is the difficulty? Bob: Umm… Prabhupada: Which one you follow? Bob: Which one I follow? I am almost vegetarian, but I eat eggs. Prabhupada: That is also not fully. (laughs) Bob: No, not even fully. But since last time I’ve become vegetarian, and… Prabhupada: No, no, vegetarian is no qualification. Bob: Not much. Prabhupada: You see, vegetarian, the pigeon is vegetarian. The monkey is vegetarian. But most rubbish creature. Bob: Well… Prabhupada: A monkey is vegetarian, naked sannyasi, lives in the forest, the most mischievous. Bob: I felt that it was a little bit of progress because it was somewhat difficult at first, then easy, and I had returned to… Prabhupada: No, you can stick to all regulative principles provided you take to Krsna consciousness process. Otherwise it is not possible. Bob: Yeah, but this is it. I have… When I’m back in Bihar and my friends may say… Well, we’re sitting in the evening, and there’s nothing to do but fight mosquitoes, and they’ll say, “How about smoking some marijuana?” And I say, “Sure, there’s nothing else to do,” and then I sit down and I enjoy myself for the evening. Now, we did this… we got carried away, we were doing it every day and realized we were hurting ourselves and stopped, but still, on occasion we do that…. Prabhupada: You have to live with us. Then your friends will not ask you, “What about marijuana?” (Bob laughs) Keep the association of devotees. Satam prasangan mama virya-samvido bhavanti hrt-karna-ras… We are opening centers to give chance people to associate with us. Why we have taken so much land? Providing for those who are seriously desirous. They will come and live with us. Association is very influential. Satam prasangat. Sangat sanjayate kamah. If you associate with drunkards, you become a drunkard. If you associate with sadhu, then you become sadhu. Syamasundara: He can come and stay with you in Bombay. Prabhupada: Huh? Syamasundara: He could come and stay in Bombay. Prabhupada: Yes, you can stay with us in Bombay. But here he wants friend, marijuana. That is the difficulty. Bob: Um, let me ask you about something else. Then maybe I’ll come back to this because I’m still… I find that I think of myself too much, and this way you can’t think of God so much. One can’t think of God. I think of myself in too many places. How can I forget about myself so I can concentrate on other more important things? Prabhupada: As they have done. Bob: (laughs) You are saying to me that my path… I think what you’re saying is my path to purity is to become a devotee. Prabhupada: Do you hesitate? Bob: Well, I… Prabhupada: It is very difficult to become a devotee? Bob: For myself… It is… I don’t feel so much the desire. I have… First the devotees tell me that they have given up material life. These four regulative principles, they have explained to me, means giving up material life, and that I see. And in place of this they have… Prabhupada: What do you mean by material life? I am sitting on this bed. Is it material or spiritual? Bob: Material. Prabhupada: Then how we give up material life? Bob: I think how I interpreted it was a desire for material gains. Prabhupada: That is material life. Bob: You’re working towards material gains, not giving up all material. Prabhupada: Material life means when you desire to gratify your senses, that is material life. And when you desire to serve God, that is spiritual life. That is the difference between material life and spiritual life. Now we are trying to serve our senses. Instead of serving the senses, when we serve God, that is spiritual life. What is the difference between our activities and others’ activities? We are using everything: table, chair, bed, this tape recorder, typewriter. So what is the difference? The difference is that we are using everything for Krsna. Bob: This I see. The devotees have said that the sensual pleasures that they have given up are replaced with spiritual kinds of pleasures. But see, I haven’t… Prabhupada: Spiritual kinds of pleasure means when you desire to please Krsna, that is spiritual pleasure. Just like example, a mother is more pleased by feeding her son. [break] Bob: Spiritual pleasure, then, is pleasing God. Prabhupada: Spiritual pleasure means pleasure of Krsna. Bob: Pleasure of Krsna. Prabhupada: Yes. And material pleasure means pleasure of senses. That’s all. This is the difference. When you try simply to please Krsna, that is spiritual pleasure. Bob: I had viewed this as… My thought of pleasing God was to do… Prabhupada: No, no, don’t manufacture your ways of pleasing God. Don’t manufacture. Suppose if I want to please you, then I shall ask you, “How can I serve you?” Not that I manufacture service. That is not pleasing you. Suppose if I want a glass of water. And if you manufacture that “Swamiji will be more pleased if I give him a glass of milk, hot milk,” that will not please me. If you want to please me, then you should ask me, “How can I please you?” And what I order, if you do that, that will please me. Bob: And pleasing Krsna, then, is being a devotee of Krsna. Prabhupada: The devotee means who is always pleasing Krsna. He has no other business. That is devotee. Bob: Can you tell me some more about chanting Hare Krsna? I have for quite some time chanted, but never regularly, just a little bit here and there. I just got beads very recently. And once in a while I feel comfortable chanting, and once in a while not comfortable at all. And maybe I don’t chant properly. I don’t know. Prabhupada: Yes, everything has got process. You have to adopt the process. Bob: The devotees tell me of the ecstasy they feel when chanting. Prabhupada: Yes, that is when… More you become purified, you feel ecstasy. But this chanting process is purifying process. Syamasundara: Srila Prabhupada, this afternoon we were discussing about austerities. Prabhupada: Hmm? Syamasundara: About austerities. If you don’t practice voluntarily austerities, then you must involuntarily practice some austerities. Prabhupada: Yes, under the direction of spiritual master. You have no mind to follow austerities, but when you accept a spiritual master you have to carry out the order. That is austerity. Syamasundara: Even if you don’t want to practice austerity, you must. You are forced to. Prabhupada: No, because… You have got… You have surrendered to your spiritual master. His order is final. So even if you don’t like, you have to do it. To please me. Even you don’t like. Nobody likes to fast, but spiritual master says, “Today is fasting,” so what can be done? (laughter) This is austerity. And disciple means who has voluntarily agreed to be disciplined by the spiritual master. That is austerity. (Loudspeaker in background is very loud.) Syamasundara: Say, like our parents or many people in the material world, completely addicted to material life. They don’t want to follow any austerities, uncomfortable, but still they must. By nature they’re forced to austerities. Prabhupada: That is forced austerity; that is not good. Voluntary austerity will help. Syamasundara: (indistinct) …if you don’t undergo voluntary austerity, you must be forced to undergo… Prabhupada: Yes. (pause) That is the difference between man and animal. Animal cannot accept austerity. But man can accept austerity. That is the difference between. Just like there is a nice foodstuff in a confectioner’s shop. So a man wants to eat it, but he sees that he has no money. So he can restrain. But an animal, cow comes, immediately he pushes his mouth in that. You can beat him with stick, it will tolerate, but it will do that. Therefore, animal cannot undergo austerity. (Someone else speaks inaudibly about volume of loudspeakers) Yes, yes, reduce. [break] Our austerity is very nice. We chant Hare Krsna, dance, and Krsna sends nice foodstuff, we eat. That’s all. Why your people are not agreeable to such kind of austerities? Chanting, dancing, and eating nicely? (indistinct) I see austerity, call my mother. Bob: What is that? Prabhupada: Suppose we have this nice foodstuff this mother has brought. So those who are not following austerities, they cannot expect. But because we are following austerity, Krsna sends us nice thing. So we are not loser. When you become Krsna-ized, then you’ll get more comfort than at the present moment. That’s a fact. I am living alone for the last twenty years, but I have no difficulty. When, before taking sannyasa, I was living in Delhi, these boys were taking care of me. Yes. So I had no difficulty, although I was living alone. Devotee: If you don’t accept a spiritual discipline, then nature forces so many… Prabhupada: Oh, yes. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita. daivi hy esa gunamayi mama maya duratyaya mam eva ye prapadyante mayam etam taranti te [Bg. 7.14] Maya is imposing so many difficulties, but as soon as you surrender to Krsna, no more imposition. Syamasundara: We are so foolish that we are always thinking, “In the future I’ll be happy.” Prabhupada: Yes, that is maya, illusion. That is an ass. You sit down on the back of the ass and just take a morsel of grass. He’ll go. The ass is thinking, “Let me go forward little, and I shall get the ass, er, grass.” But it is… One feet distant it always remains. That is ass-ism. (laughter) That is not… Everyone is thinking, “Let me go a little forward, and I’ll get it. [break] …get it, be very happy.” [break] Bob: I thank you so much for… Prabhupada: Hmm? [break] Don’t talk l-e-a-v-e. But talk l-i-v-e. Bob: I, I, I cannot yet, but I was thinking now of returning tomorrow to my town. But… Prabhupada: Don’t return. Bob: I should stay tomorrow, yes. Prabhupada: Stay here. Bob: You tell me to, I’ll stay. Prabhupada: Yes. You’re a very good boy. Bob: O.K. Thank you. [break] Prabhupada: It is very simple. The living entities forgetting Krsna, they are in this material world. Krsna means His name, His form, His abode, His pastimes, everything. Bob: What was that last? Prabhupada: Pastimes. Bob: Pastimes. Prabhupada: Yes. Just like, when you speak of king, it means king’s government, king’s palace, king’s queen, king’s son, secretaries, military strength, everything. Is it not? Bob: Yes. Prabhupada: Similarly, Krsna being the Supreme Personality of Godhead, as soon as we think of Krsna (it) means all energies of Krsna. That is complete by saying “Radha-Krsna.” Radha represents all the energy of Krsna. And Krsna is the Supreme Lord. So when we speak of Krsna, the living entities are also included. Because the living entities are energies, different energies of Krsna, superior energy. So when this energy is not serving the energetic, that means material existence. The whole world is not serving Krsna. They are serving Krsna in a different way. they are serving Krsna indirectly. Just like disobedient citizens, they serve the government indirectly. They have come to the prison house on account of their disobedience of the laws of the state. So in the prison house they’re forced to obey the laws of the state. Similarly, all the living entities here, they’re godless. Either by ignorance or by his will, he doesn’t like to accept the supremacy of God. Demonic. So we are trying to bring them in their original condition. That is Krsna consciousness movement. [break] Bob: I’d like to ask you just something I talked with devotees about, just medicine. I went to go, I walked to the river with some devotees today. I have a cold, so I said I shouldn’t go in the water. Some felt I should because it is the Ganges, and some said I shouldn’t because I have a cold. And we were talking, and I don’t understand. Some… Devotees, do we get sick because of our bad actions in the past? Prabhupada: That’s a fact. Bob: But when one is… Prabhupada: Any kind of distress we suffer, it is due to our impious activities in the past. Bob: But when one is removed from karmic influence… Prabhupada: Yes? Bob: …does he still get sick? Prabhupada: No. Even if he gets sick, that is very temporary. Just like this fan is moving. If you disconnect with the electric power, then the fan will move for a moment. That movement is not due to the electric current. That is force. What is called physically, this… Syamasundara: Momentum. Prabhupada: Huh? Syamasundara: Momentum. Prabhupada: Momentum. But as soon as he stops, no more movement. Similarly, a devotee who has surrendered to Krsna, even he’s found that he’s suffering from material consequences, that is temporary. Therefore a devotee does not take any material miseries as misery. He takes as Krsna’s, God’s, mercy. Bob: But what about a perfected soul, a devotee, a pure devotee? Prabhupada: Perfected soul means twenty-four hours engaged in Krsna consciousness. That is perfection. Transcendental position. Perfection means to be engaged in his original consciousness. That is perfection. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita, “Anyone who comes to Me, that is the…” Samsiddhih labhate param. Samsiddhi. Perfection, complete perfection. Samsiddhi. Siddhi and samsiddhi. Siddhi is perfection. That is Brahman realization. And samsiddhi means devotion, after Brahman realization. Bob: Could you just say that last thing again please? Prabhupada: Samsiddhi. Bob: Yes. Prabhupada: Sam means complete. Bob: Yes. Prabhupada: And siddhi means perfection. So in the Bhagavad-gita it is stated that one who goes back to home, back to Godhead, he has attained the complete perfection. So perfection means when one realizes that he’s not this body, he’s spirit soul. Brahma-bhuta. That is called Brahman realization. That is perfection. And samsiddhi means after Brahman realization, when one is engaged in devotional service. Therefore, one who is already engaged in devotional service, it is to be understood that Brahman realization is there. Therefore it is called samsiddhi. Bob: I, I, I ask you this very humbly, but do you feel diseases and sickness? Prabhupada: Hmm? Bob: Do you personally feel disease and sickness? Prabhupada: Yes. Bob: Is this a result of your past karma? Prabhupada: Hmm? Bob: This is a result of your past karma? Prabhupada: Yes. Bob: So one in this material world never escapes his karma completely? Prabhupada: Yes, escapes. No more karma. For a devotee, no more karma reaction. Bob: But you must be the best devotee, and you… Prabhupada: Hmm. No, I don’t consider I am the best devotee. I am the lowest. Bob: No! No! Prabhupada: You are the best devotee. Bob: (laughter) Oh, no! But see, you say, what you say…, it always, always seems right. Prabhupada: Yes, but… Bob: So then you must be the best devotee. Prabhupada: Yes, the thing is that even the best devotee, when he preaches, he comes to the second-class devotee. Bob: What would the best devotee be doing? Prabhupada: The best devotee does not preach. Bob: What does he do? Prabhupada: He sees there is no need of preaching; everyone is devotee. (Bob laughs) Yes. He sees no more non-devotee, all devotee. Yasodanandana: Uttama-adhikari? Prabhupada: Uttama-adhikari. But while I am preaching, how can I say I am the best devotee? Just like Radharani. She does not see anyone non-devotee. Therefore we try to approach Radharani. Bob: Who is this? Prabhupada: Radharani, Krsna’s consort. Bob: Ah. Prabhupada: Anyone approaches Radharani, She recommends to Krsna, “Here is the best devotee. He’s better than me.” And Krsna cannot refuse. That is best devotee. But it is not to be imitated, “I have become best devotee. Therefore I have stopped.” That is… Actually, that is a different stage. So even the best devotee… Without (being) best devotee, he cannot preach actually, acarya, but he comes to the second stage. Isvare tad-adhinesu balisesu dvisatsu ca. He has the vision of dvisat, somebody envious of God. But it is not the vision of the best devotee. Best devotee sees, “Nobody is envious to God. Everyone is better than me.” Just like Caitanya-caritamrta author, Krsnadasa Kaviraja. He says that “I am lowest than the worm in the stool.” Bob: Who was saying this? Prabhupada: Krsna… The author of Caitanya-caritamrta, Krsnadasa Kaviraja. Purisera kita haite muni se laghistha. He’s not making a show, he’s feeling like that, that “I am the lowest. Everyone is best, I am the lowest. Everyone is engaged in Krsna’s service, I am not engaged.” Just like Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, “Oh, I have not a pinch of devotion to Krsna. I cry to make a show. If I would have been a devotee of Krsna I would have died long ago. I am living; that is the proof that I do not love Krsna.” That is the vision of the best devotee. He’s so much absorbed in Krsna’s love that he sees, “Everything is going on; simply I am the lowest, therefore I cannot see God.” That is best devotee. Bob: So then a devotee must work for everybody’s liberation? Prabhupada: Yes, yes. A devotee must work under the direction of a bona fide spiritual master. Not imitate the best devotee. Bob: Excuse me? Prabhupada: Not imitate the best devotee. Bob: Not, what is that word? Prabhupada: Imitate. Devotees: Imitate, imitate. Bob: Oh, accha, accha, I see. Imitate. (pause) [break] Syamasundara: …you said that sometimes you feel pain, some sickness, due to the sinful activities of your devotees. Is that… Couldn’t sometimes disease be that, due to that? Caused by that? Prabhupada: You see, Krsna says that aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayisyami. So Krsna’s so powerful that He can immediately take up all the sins of others and immediately make it gone. But when a living entity plays the part on behalf of Krsna, he also takes the responsibility of these sinful activities of his devotee. So to become a guru is not an easy task. You see? He has to take all the poisons and absorb. So sometimes, because he’s not Krsna, so sometimes there is some trouble. Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu forbidden that “Don’t make many sisyas, many disciples.” But for preaching work we have to accept many disciples, for expanding preaching. Never mind we suffer. But that’s a fact. The spiritual master has to take the responsibility of all the sinful activities of his disciples. So to make many disciple is a risky job unless he’s able to assimilate all the sins. (pause) [break]… patitanam pavanebhyo. He takes responsibility for all the fallen souls. That is… That idea is in Bible. Just like Jesus Christ take all the sinful reaction of all people and sacrificed his life. That is the responsibility of spiritual master. Because he’s Krsna’s representative. So Krsna takes all responsibility. Krsna is Krsna, apapa-viddham. He cannot be attacked by any sinful reaction. But a living entity may be subjected sometimes, because he’s small. Big fire, small fire. On a small fire if you put some big things, (chuckling) then the fire itself may be extinguished. In the big fire, whatever you put, that’s all right. Finished. The big fire can consume anything. Bob: So Christ’s suffering was of that nature? Prabhupada: Hmm? Bob: Was Christ’s suffering this… Prabhupada: That I have already explained, that he took the sinful reaction of all the people, therefore he suffered. Bob: I see. Prabhupada: He said… That is the Bible, that he has taken all the sinful reactions of the people and he sacrificed his life. But these Christian people, they have made it a law that “Christ will suffer and we shall do all nonsense.” Such great fools they are. They are… “Let Jesus Christ make contract for taking all one sinful reaction, and we will go on with all nonsense.” That is their religion. This… They are not in sense that “Christ is so magnanimous that he took all our sins and he has suffered… We stop all these sins!” They have not come to that sense. They have taking it very easily: “Let Lord Jesus Christ suffer, and we do all nonsense.” Is it not? Bob: It is so. Prabhupada: Yes. They should have been ashamed that “Lord Jesus Christ suffered for us. Instead of… We are continuing the sinful activities still. He asked everyone, ‘Thou shall not kill,’ and we are indulging in killing.” And “Lord Jesus Christ will excuse us, take all the sinful reaction.” This is going on. [break] …should be very much cautious that “For my sinful actions my spiritual master will suffer. So I’ll not commit a pinch of sinful action.” That is the duty of the disciple. After initiation his all sinful reaction is finished. Now if he again commits sinful activities, the spiritual master has to suffer. They should be sympathetic for this, that “For my sinful activities my spiritual master will suffer.” [break] …attacked with some disease it is due to the sinful activities of the disciples. Exactly like Lord Jesus Christ was crucified on account of the sinful activities of others. [break] …forbidden, “Don’t make many disciples.” But we do because we are preaching. Never mind, let us suffer; still, we shall accept. [break]… question was that when I suffer it is due to my past misdeeds? Was it not? Bob: Yes, yes, yes. Prabhupada: That is my misdeed, that I accept a disciple who is nonsense. That is my misdeed. Bob: This happens on occasion? Prabhupada: Yes, this is sure to happen because we are accepting so many men. But it is the duty of the disciple to be cautious. That “My spiritual master saved me. I may not put him again into these sufferings.” [break] When the spiritual master is in suffering, Krsna saves him. Krsna thinks, “Oh, he has taken so much responsibility for delivering a fallen person.” So Krsna is there. Kaunteya pratijanihi na me bhaktah pranasyati. Because the spiritual master takes the risk on account of Krsna. Bob: So your suffering is not the same kind of pain that an impure person… Prabhupada: No, it is not due to karma. The pain is there sometimes so that the disciples may know that “Due to our sinful activities my spiritual master is suffering.” [break] Bob: …very well now. Prabhupada: I’m always well. [break] …well in this sense, even there is suffering, I know Krsna will protect me. But this suffering is not due to my sinful activities. [break] Bob: But let us say, when I, in the town I live in I drink boiled water because some of the water has disease in it. Now, why should I drink boiled water? If I have been good enough not to get a disease, then I may drink any water. And if I have been not doing proper, then I shall get diseased… Prabhupada: So boiled water is any water also. Boiled water is included within any water. Bob: But, you see, I drink that to prevent disease. Prabhupada: Yes. So long you are in the material world, what is physical laws, you cannot neglect that. Just like if you go to a jungle, there is tiger. It is known that it will attack you. Why should you voluntarily go and be attacked? It is not that a devotee should take physical risk so long he has got some physical body. It is not a challenge to the physical laws: “Oh, I have become a devotee. I challenge everything.” That is foolishness. Anasaktasya visayan yatharham upayunjatah. Visaya, these physical necessities, the devotee is advised to accept the necessities of life without any attachment. Physical law is take the boiled water, but if boiled water is not available, does it mean he’ll not drink water? If it is not available, you drink ordinary water. [break] We take Krsna-prasadam. But while in touring, in hotels sometimes we have to take some food in the hotel. Does it mean, “Oh, I do not take any foodstuff from the hotel, I shall starve”? If I starve, then I’ll be weak, I cannot preach. [break] Bob: Does a devotee lose some of his individuality in that… Prabhupada: No, he has got full individuality, but he sacrifices individuality for pleasing Krsna. Krsna says, “You surrender unto Me.” So he voluntarily surrenders. Not that he has lost his individuality. He keeps his individuality fully. But because Krsna desires that he should surrender, he never minds. He’s individual. Just like Arjuna, in the beginning he was declining to fight on account of his individuality. But when he accepted Krsna as his spiritual master, he became sisya. Then whatever He ordered, “Yes.” That doesn’t mean he lost his individuality. He voluntarily accepted, “Whatever Krsna says, I shall do it.” Just as all my disciples, they have not lost their individuality, but they have surrendered their individuality. That is required. Just like if a man does not use sex, does that mean he has become impotent? If he likes he can have, thousand times sex life, but he has voluntarily avoided it. Param drstva nivartate. Sometimes we fast, that does mean we are diseased. We voluntarily fast. It does not mean that I am not hungry, I cannot eat. But we voluntarily fast. Bob: Does the devotee who surrenders keep his individual … Prabhupada: Yes, in full. Bob: …taste for different things? Prabhupada: Eh? Bob: Does he keep his individual likes and dislikes? Prabhupada: Yes, everything he keeps, but he gives preference to Krsna. Suppose I like this thing. Krsna says, “No. You cannot use it.” Then they are sacrificed. It is for Krsna’s sake. Nirbandhah krsna-sambandhe. Bob: Let us say a devotee has a liking for one food over another food. Prabhupada: Yes. But if Krsna does not like it, he won’t take. Bob: And how does he know which food Krsna likes him to take? Prabhupada: That is stated in the sastra. You have to know from Krsna. When you… Just like, what kind of behavior government likes, how do you know it? From the lawbooks. Is it not? Similarly, what Krsna likes and not likes, you get from the sastra. You cannot manufacture the like and disliking of Krsna. That is nonsense. Krsna says, patram puspam phalam toyam yo me bhaktya prayacchati. He says definitely. Positively He says, that “I like these things.” So we have to offer to Krsna what He likes, and then we take prasadam. Krsna likes Radharani. Therefore all the gopis, they’re trying to push Radharani to Krsna. Nikunja-yuno rati-keli-siddhyai ya yalibhir yuktir apeksaniya **. That is expert. “Oh, Krsna likes this gopi. All right, push her.” That is Krsna consciousness. To satisfy the senses of Krsna. Not satisfy my senses. That is bhakti. That is called prema, love for Krsna. “Oh, Krsna likes this. I must give Him this.” Bob: There is, some prasadam is offered, and then we go and eat, and different prasada’s are served. And some I like, and some I find the taste not at all to my liking and do not eat. Prabhupada: You should not do that. The perfection is whatever is offered to Krsna, you should accept everything. You cannot make, “I like this. I do not like this.” That is perfection. So long you make such discrimination that means you have not appreciated what is prasada. (pause) Devotee: What if there is someone… This… (Static)… likes and dislikes. Say, someone is preparing some prasadam… Prabhupada: No dislikings, no liking. Whatever Krsna likes, that’s all right. Devotee: Yes. But say someone prepares something, like some prasadam for Krsna, but he does not make it so good, and it is… Prabhupada: No, if you have made sincerely with devotion, then Krsna will like it. Just like Vidura. Vidura was feeding Krsna banana. So he was so absorbed in thought he was, I mean to say, throwing away the real banana and he was giving Him the skin, and Krsna was eating. (laughter) Because He knows that “He’s giving Me in the devotion.” So Krsna can eat anything, provided there is devotion, real devotion. It does not matter whether it is materially tasteful or not. Similarly, a devotee also take Krsna prasadam. Whether it is materially tasteful or not, he should accept everything. Devotee: But the devotion is not there. Like in India… Prabhupada: Devotion is not there, He does not like any food, either is tasteful or not tasteful. He does not accept it. Devotee: In India, somebody said… Prabhupada: No India, of India, don’t talk of India. Talk of the philosophy. If there is no devotion, Krsna does not accept anything, either in India or in your country. It is not… Krsna’s not obliged to accept anything costly because it is very tasteful. Krsna has many tasteful dishes in Vaikuntha. He’s not hankering after your food. He accepts your devotion. That out of… Bhaktya, tad aham asnami. Bhaktya upahrtam, real thing is devotion. Not the food. Krsna does not accept any food of this material world. But He accepts only the devotion. Patram puspam phalam toyam yo me bhaktya prayacchati, tad aham asnami bhaktya upahrtam. “Because it has been offered to Me with devotional love,” that is required. One who has no devotional love, from his hand… Therefore we do not allow anyone to cook who is not a devotee. Krsna does not accept anything from the hands of a non-devotee. Why should He accept? He’s not hungry. He does not require any food. He accepts only the devotion. That’s all. That is the main point. So one has to become a devotee, not a good cooker. But if he’s a devotee, then he’ll be a good cook also. Yasyasti bhaktir bhagavaty akincana sarvair gunais tatra samasate surah. Automatically he’ll become a good cook. Therefore one has to become devotee only; then all other good qualification will automatically be there. And if he’s a nondevotee, any good qualification has no value. Harav abhaktasya kuto mahad-guna mano-rathenasati dhavato bahih [SB 5.18.12] He’s on the mental plane. So he has no good qualification. [break] The time? Syamasundara: Six o’clock. Twenty more minutes, twenty minutes. [break] Prabhupada: It is… Question and Answer, it is required. It is beneficial to all the… Bob: I still have question on the prasada. Prabhupada: Suta Gosvami says, munayah sadhu prsto ’ham bhavadbhir loka-mangalam, krsna-samprasnah [SB 1.2.5]. Krsna-samprasnah is very good. When you discuss and hear, that is loka-mangalam, either by the question or by the answer. munayah sadhu prsto ’ham bhavadbhir loka-mangalam yat krtah krsna-samprasno yenatma suprasidati [SB 1.2.5] [break] Bob: I still have…, do not understand so much about what you’re telling me about the prasadam. But if you like I’ll think about it and ask, ask you again tomorrow. About prasadam. Prabhupada: Prasadam is always prasadam. So because we are not elevated sufficiently, therefore we do not like some prasadam. Bob: I found, specifically what I mean, is some was too spicy and hurt my stomach. Prabhupada: Well, that is also due to … not appreciate. But Krsna should be… The cook should have consideration that Krsna must be offered first-class foodstuff. So if he offers something last class, that is not his duty. But Krsna can accept anything if it is offered by a devotee, and a devotee also can accept any prasadam, even if it is spicy. [break] Hiranyakasipu gave his son poison and he drank it nectarine. So for the devotee even it is spicy to other taste, it is very palatable to the devotee. What is the question of spicy? He was offered poison, real poison. [break] …she also offered Krsna poison, but Krsna’s so nice that “She took Me as My mother.” So He took the poison and delivered her. Krsna does not take the bad side. Any good man, he does not take the bad side; he takes only the good side. [break] He wanted to make business with my Guru Maharaja. But he did not take the bad side. He took the good side that “He has come forward to give me some service. So whatever he wanted he gave him.” Bob: Business with you, what was that? Business with who? Prabhupada: That is, I am talking about my Guru Maharaja. Bob: Oh, oh, I see. [break] …question on prasadam, if I may. Let us say if some devotee has some trouble and does not eat a certain type of food. Like some devotees do not eat ghee because of liver trouble. So these devotees, should they take all the prasadam? Prabhupada: No, no, no. I say those who are not perfect devotee, they may discriminate. But a perfect devotee does not discriminate. So why should you imitate a perfect devotee? So long you have discrimination, you are not a perfect devotee. So artificially why should you imitate a perfect devotee and eat everything? Bob: Oh-h. Prabhupada: The point is, a perfect devotee does not make any discrimination. Whatever is offered to Krsna, it is nectar. That’s all. Just like exactly Krsna accepts anything from a devotee. “Whatever is offered to Me by My devotee,” He accepts. The same thing for a devotee. [break] …point? Bob: Yes. Prabhupada: The perfect devotee does not make any discrimination. But if I am not a perfect devotee, I have got discrimination, why shall I imitate a perfect devotee? That will not be possible to assimilate or digest. Because I am not a perfect devotee. These things are… A devotee should not be a foolish man. It is said that krsna yei bhaje se bada catura. So a devotee knows his position and he’s intelligent enough to deal with others accordingly. [break] …it is posted? The… Specifically, it is prescribed that one should perform yajna. Yajna means to act for satisfaction of Lord Visnu, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. In the Bhagavad-gita it is said… So shall I stop this fan? I think you can stop. You got? Otherwise much mosquitoes may disturb. Bob: I have a sweater here if you like. Prabhupada: No. So good karma means performance of the yajnas as they are prescribed in the Vedic literature. And this purpose of this yajna is to satisfy the Supreme Lord. Just like good citizen means one who satisfies the government. Law-abiding. Good citizen. Similarly, good karma means who satisfies Lord Visnu, the Supreme Lord. Unfortunately, the modern civilization, they do not know what is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and what to speak of satisfying Him. They do not know. They are simply busy in material activities. Therefore, all of them are doing only bad karma, and therefore they are suffering. They are blind men and leading some other blind men. And both of them are expanding the path to hell by bad karma. Bad karma, you suffer. That is very easy to understand. If you do something criminal, you’ll suffer. If you do something benevolent for the state, for the people, then you are rewarded, you are recognized, you are given title. Sometimes shot. This is good and bad karma. So… (microphone noise) …some material happiness, and bad karma means you suffer from material distress. By good karma you get birth in good family, janma. You get riches, good money. Then you become learned scholar, you become beautiful also. Sit down. There is some trouble with your leg? What is that? Devotee: There is an infection in this ankle. Prabhupada: Ankle? Oh, there was some… [break] Bob: …who is not very aware of God, but… Prabhupada: Then he’s an animal. The animal does not know what is God. A person who does not know what is God or one who does not try to understand what is God, he’s animal. The animals are with four legs, and that animal is with two legs. And Darwin’s theory is they are monkeys. So anyone who does not know God or does not try to understand God, he’s nothing but animal. Bob: What about the people in the…the innocent people? Prabhupada: The animal is very innocent. You cut its throat, it won’t protest. So innocent is not very good qualification. The animals are all innocent. Therefore you get the chance of cutting their throat. So just… To become innocent is not a very good qualification. Our proposition is one must be very, very intelligent, and then he can understand Krsna. Krsna yei bhaje se bada catura. So to become innocent, ignorant, simpleton is not very good qualification. Simplicity is all right, but one should not be unintelligent. Bob: Can you tell me again what intelligence is? Prabhupada: Intelligence means one who knows what he is, what is this world, what is God, what is the interrelation, he’s intelligent. If he does not know what he is… The animal does not know what he is. He thinks that he’s body. Similarly, any man who does not know what he is, he’s not intelligent. Bob: What about a person who does, tries to do what is right and is very conscientious instead of being unconscientious about the things he does? Like the servant who is very honest to his master, but if he was not honest he knows he would not be caught. But he stays honest anyway, a person like that. Is that some kind of good karma? Prabhupada: Yes, to become honest is also good karma. How to become good man, they’re described in the Bhagavad-gita. Daivi sampad and asuri sampad. These are very elaborately described in the Bhagavad-gita. So if you become qualified with the daivi sampad, then daivi sampad vimoksaya, then you’ll be liberated. And nibandhayasuri mata. And if you are qualified with the demonic qualification, then you’ll be more and more entangled. Unfortunately, the modern civilization, they do not know what is liberation and what is entanglement. They’re so much ignorant. They do not know… Suppose if I ask you, “What do you mean by liberation?” Can you answer? And if I ask you, “What do you mean by entanglement?” Can you answer? These words are there in the Vedic literature. Liberation and entanglement. But at the present moment they do not know even what is liberation, what is entanglement. They’re so ignorant and foolish, and still, they’re proud of their advancement in knowledge. Can you answer what is liberation? You are a professor, teacher, but if I ask you, can you explain what is liberation? Bob: Not adequately because if I could explain, then I would be becoming liberated very fast. Prabhupada: But if you do not know what is liberation, then how fast and slow liberation? (laughs) There is no question of liberation. It is neither fast nor slow. You first know what is liberation. If you do not know where the train is going, then what is the use of asking or understanding fast and slow? You do not know your destination. What is liberation? Bob: Umm… Prabhupada: I am asking. You daily ask me; I am asking you today. Bob: Okay, yes. (laughs) I’ll think for a moment. Syamasundara: Shall I turn this off, this fan? It’s cool now. Prabhupada: Yes, yes. No, he’ll do. Where is Nanda Kumara? He can do. [break] …is described in the Bhagavad-gita, er, Srimad-Bhagavatam. The exact Sanskrit word for liberation is called mukti. So that mukti is defined in the Srimad-Bhagavatam: muktir hitvanyatha rupam svarupena vyavasthitih. One should stop doing all nonsense, and he must be situated in his original position. But this is also more embarrassing because nobody knows what is his original position. And how to act properly. Muktir hitvanyatha rupam. People are generally acting differently. But they do not know what is differently and what is properly. So much ignorant are the modern population about their life. It is very, very awkward position. They do not know. Bob: [break] …who is honest? Prabhupada: But he does not know what is honesty. How he can be honest? If you know what is honesty, then you can become honest. But you do not know what is honesty. What is honesty? First of all explain. Bob: Honesty is doing what you really feel is right. Prabhupada: Then a thief is feeling that “I must steal to provide my children. It is right.” Does it mean that he’s honest? Everyone thinks… The butcher, he thinks, “It is my life. I must cut throat of the animals daily.” Just like that, what is that, vyadha, vyadha… When Narada Muni met him? Devotee: Oh, Mrgari. Prabhupada: Yes, Mrgari. “Why you are killing in this way?” “Oh, it is my business. My father taught it.” So he was honestly doing that. So feeling of honesty depends on different culture. A thief’s culture is different. He thinks stealing is honesty. Bob: So what is honesty? Prabhupada: Yes, that is my question. (laughter) Real honesty is that you should not encroach upon other’s property. This is honesty. Just like this is my table. If you want to take it away while going, is that honesty? No. So therefore the simple definition of honesty is that you should not encroach upon other’s right. That is honesty. Bob: So somebody who is honest will be in the mode of goodness. Would that be correct? Prabhupada: Certainly. Certainly. Because mode of goodness means knowledge. So if you know, if you’re well conversant that “This table does not belong to me; it belongs to Swamiji,” so you’ll not try to take it away. Therefore one must know, be thoroughly well conversant; then he can be honest. Bob: So… Now, you had said the mode of goodness was knowledge of God, but somebody may be honest without having very much knowledge of God. Prabhupada: Hmm. Bob: You know, without being honest, without thinking they’re honest because it is God’s wishes, they just feel like they ought to be honest. Prabhupada: No. God wishes everyone should be honest. Why God should think otherwise? Bob: So you may follow God’s wishes without knowing you are following God’s wishes. Like somebody may be in the mode of… Prabhupada: No. Without knowing following, that is absurd. Without knowing following that is absurd. You must know that this is the order of God. And if you follow that, then that is honesty. Bob: But somebody would not be honest without knowing God? Prabhupada: Yes. Because God is the supreme proprietor. See… God is the supreme proprietor and He’s the supreme enjoyer and He’s the supreme friend. That is the statement in the Bhagavad-gita. If anyone knows these three things, then he is in full knowledge. These three things only, that God is the proprietor of everything, God is friend of everyone, and God is the enjoyer of everything. Just like the same example, in your body… Everyone knows in the body the stomach is the enjoyer. Not the hands, legs, eyes, ears. They are simply to help the stomach. Eyes, the vulture goes seven miles up to see where is food for the stomach. Is it not? Bob: That’s so. Prabhupada: Then the wings fly there, and the jaws catch the food, and after all he puts into the mouth. Similarly, as in this body, this particular example, the stomach is the enjoyer, similarly, the central figure of whole cosmic manifestation, material or spiritual, the central figure is Krsna, God. He’s the enjoyer. We can understand. As in my this particular body, the body is also a creation. The body has got the same mechanism as you will find out in the whole universe. The same mechanical, anywhere you go, you find even in animals or human body or in the cosmic manifestation. Almost the same mechanism. So as you understand very easily that in this body, my body, your body, the stomach is the enjoyer. Or there is a central enjoyer. And the stomach is friend also of everyone. Because if we cannot digest food, you see, then all other limbs of the body they become weak. Therefore stomach is the friend. It is digesting and distribute the energy to all the limbs of the body. Is it not? Bob: It is so. Prabhupada: Similarly, the central stomach of the whole creation is God, or Krsna. He’s the enjoyer and He’s the friend. He’s maintaining everyone. Eko bahunam vidadhati kaman. Therefore He’s friend of everyone. And everywhere… He is maintaining means everywhere He’s the proprietor. Just like a king can maintain the whole country, citizens, because he’s the proprietor. Without being proprietor, how he can become everyone’s friend? So these things have to be understood, that Krsna is the enjoyer, Krsna is the proprietor, and Krsna is friend. If you know these three things, then your knowledge is full. You do not require to understand anything more. Yasmin vijnate sarvam evam vijnatam bhavati. If you simply understand Krsna by these three formulas, then your knowledge is complete. You don’t require any more knowledge. But people will not agree. “Why Krsna shall be proprietor? Hitler shall be proprietor. Yayha Khan should be proprietor. (laughter) Nixon shall be proprietor.” That is going on. Therefore you are in trouble. But if you understand these three things only, then your knowledge is finished. But he’ll not accept, he’ll put forward so many impediments for understanding these three things. And that is the cause of our trouble. But Bhagavad-gita, in the Bhagavad-gita it is plainly said, bhoktaram yajna-tapasam sarva-loka-mahesvaram suhrdam sarva-bhutanam jnatva mam santim rcchati [Bg. 5.29] But we won’t take this. We shall put forward so many false proprietor, false friends, false enjoyer, and they will fight one another. This is the situation of the world. If this education is given and people takes this knowledge, there is peace, santim rcchati. Immediately there is peace. This is knowledge. And if anyone follows this principle, he’s honest. He does not claim “It is mine.” He everything knows it is Krsna’s, so therefore everything should be utilized for Krsna’s service. That is honesty. If this pencil belongs to me the etiquette is… Just like my students sometimes do: “Can I use this pencil?” “Yes.” This is etiquette, I say, “Yes, you can.” Similarly, if I know that everything belongs to Krsna, without His permission I’ll not use. That is honesty. And that is knowledge. And one does not know, he’s ignorant, he’s foolish, and foolish man commits all criminality. All criminals, they’re foolish men. Out of ignorance one commits lawbreaking. So ignorance is not bliss, but it is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss. That is the difficulty, our. The whole world is enjoying ignorance, and when we say about Krsna consciousness, they do not very much appreciate. If I say, “Krsna is the proprietor, you are not proprietor,” he’ll not be very much satisfied. (laughs) Just see, ignorance is bliss. So it is my foolishness to say the real truth. Therefore this is, it is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss. So we are taking the risk to offend people because they’ll think we are fools. If I say, “Birla, Mr. Birla, you are not proprietor, Krsna is proprietor. So whatever money you have got spend for Krsna,” he’ll be angry. Murkha upadeso hi prakopaya na santaye. If you instruct a rascal, he’ll be angry. Therefore we go as beggar. “My dear Mr. Birla, you are very rich man. I am sannyasi beggar. So I want to construct a temple if you spare some money.” So he’ll be, “Oh, here is a beggar, give him some money.” (laughter) But if I say “Mr. Birla, you have got millions of dollars at your disposal. That is Krsna’s money. Give it to me. I am Krsna’s servant.” Oh, he will… (laughter) He’ll not be very satisfied. Rather, if I go as a beggar, he would give something, and if I tell him the truth, he’ll not give me a farthing. Therefore we take this beggar’s dress. We are not beggar. We cheat him as beggar. We are not beggar. We are Krsna’s servant, we are not beggar. We don’t want anything from anyone. Because we know Krsna will provide everything. Bob: Ahh. Prabhupada: This is knowledge. Just like a child sometimes takes something important. He’ll not spare it. So we have to flatter, “Oh, you are so nice, please take these lozenges and give me that paper. Hundred rupees, it is nothing. It is paper.” (laughter) And he will, “Oh, yes, take. That’s nice. That two-paise lozenges is very nice. It is sweet.” So we have to do like that. Why? Because he’ll go to hell taking Krsna’s money. So some way or other, take some money from him and engage in Krsna consciousness movement. Bob: And then he may not go to hell. Prabhupada: Yes. You save him from going to hell. Because a farthing spent for Krsna it will be accounted, “Oh, this man has given a farthing.” This is called ajnata-sukrti. Ajnata-sukrti means doing pious activities without knowledge. So we give everyone chance to act very piously without his knowledge. This is Krsna consciousness movement. Mahad-vicalanam nrnam grhinam dina-cetasam. Dina-cetasam. They’re very poor in their thought. Therefore the saintly persons work(?) just to enlighten him little, to give him chance to serve Krsna. That is saintly person’s study. Bob: That is what? Prabhupada: But if he takes money from other and utilizes for his sense gratification, then he goes to hell. Then it is finished. Then he’s a cheater. Actually, he is criminal. You cannot take money, a farthing from anyone. [break] Bob: I think of people I know who are not Krsna conscious. Prabhupada: Krsna means God. Bob: Oh, yeah. Are not very, are just slightly God conscious, but still these people are honest to the extent they don’t take, they don’t take from other people at all and they try to be honest with other people. Will these… Prabhupada: But he does not take from other people, but he takes from God. Bob: So these people are half good? Prabhupada: Huh? Bob: These people then are half good? Prabhupada: Not half God. Bob: Half good, good. Prabhupada: Not good. If he does not know this principle, that God is the proprietor… Others’ thing, what do you mean by others’ thing? Bob: Like, people I’m thinking of, they’re poor people who need money and food, but… Prabhupada: Everyone needs money. Everyone needs. Who is not poor? Anyone find out. So many gentlemen sitting here. Who is not in need of food and money? You are also in need of money. So what do you distinguish poor and rich? Everyone needs. If that is your definition, if one needs money and food, everyone needs money and food. So everyone is poor. Bob: So, but, well, I was thinking of terms of just people who are relatively poor. Prabhupada: No relatively. Relatively maybe. You are more hungry than me. But that does not mean you are not hungry or I am not hungry. I don’t feel hungry now, that does not mean I do not feel hungry or I am not hungry. For the time being you may not be hungry. Tomorrow you’ll be hungry. Bob: What I feel is that somehow these people that… Everybody around them may be stealing, but they still stand up and don’t steal. That these people somehow deserve something good to happen to them. Prabhupada: But the man who is thinking that he’s not stealing, he’s also a thief. Because he does not know that everything belongs to Krsna. Therefore whatever he’s accepting, he’s stealing. Bob: Is he less of a thief? Prabhupada: You may not know that I am the proprietor of this wrapper, but if you take it away, are you not steal? Bob: But, maybe it isn’t… If I know it is yours and I take it I’m a worse thief than if I do not know whose it is and I just think it may be nobody’s and I take it. Prabhupada: That is also stealing. Because it must belong to somebody. Bob: Yeah. Prabhupada: How do you take it without his permission? You may not know exactly who is the proprietor, but you must know, “It must belong to somebody.” That is knowledge. Sometimes we see on the road so many valuable things are lying, government property. You see? For repairing roads or electrical, so many things, valuable things are lying down. But a man may think that it is “Fortunately, it is lying there; so I take it.” Is it not stealing? Bob: It is stealing. Prabhupada: Yes. He does not know that these are all government property. He takes away. That is stealing. And when he’s caught he’s arrested and he’s punished. So similarly, whatever you are collecting… Suppose you are drinking a glass of water from the river. Is the river your property? Bob: No. Prabhupada: Then? It is stealing. You have not created the river. You do not know who is the proprietor. Therefore it is not your property. So even if you drink a glass of water without the knowledge to whom it belongs you are a thief. So you think, “I’m honest.” But factually you are thief. (Speaks to someone in Bengali) Raso ’ham apsu kaunteya. You must remember Krsna that “Krsna, it is Your creation, so kindly allow me to drink it.” This is honesty. This is honesty. Therefore a devotee always thinks of Krsna in all activities. “Oh, it is Krsna’s.” Sarvatra sphuraya tara ista-deva murti. This is honesty. (Speaks to someone in Bengali) So without Krsna consciousness everyone is a rascal, is a thief, is a rogue, is a robber, these qualifications. Therefore our conclusion is anyone who does not understand Krsna, he has no good qualification. Neither he’s honest, neither he has knowledge. Therefore he’s a third-class man. Is that correct? What do you think, Giriraja? Giriraja: Yes. Prabhupada: This is not dogmatism, this is fact. (Speaks to someone in Bengali) [break] …you have understood what is knowledge and what is honesty? Bob: In a way, in a way. Prabhupada: And if there is other way to defy it? Is there any other way? You defy it. (laughs) If there another way? Giriraja? Giriraja: No. Prabhupada: Is there any alternative? To defy it? We do not say anything which can be defied by anyone. That experience we have got. Rather, we defy it. “Any question?” Till now. And Krsna gives us protection. In big, big meeting, in big, big country, after speaking I ask, “Any question?” Bob: Now…I have none. Prabhupada: In London, we had, how many days lecture in that, what is that, Conway Hall? Gurudasa: Twelve days. Conway Hall. Prabhupada: Conway Hall, yes. Gurudasa: Twelve days. Prabhupada: So after every meeting I was asking, “Any question?” Bob: Did you get many questions? Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Many foolish questions. (laughter) Bob: Let me ask one more question. What is being foolish? Prabhupada: Foolish means who has no knowledge. Bob: No knowledge. Prabhupada: That is foolish. Is it not foolish? Bob: Having no knowledge? Yes. Indian man: Prabhupada, I have one personal question, can I ask? Prabhupada: Yes. Indian man: Some time ago in Calcutta they observed a week. It was named “Prevention of Cruelty to Animals.” Prabhupada: Hmm. (Chuckles) This is another foolishness. They are advertising prevention of cruelty and they are maintaining thousands of slaughterhouse. You see? That is another foolishness. Indian man: No, I wanted just to ask… Prabhupada: Asking, before asking, I give you the answer. (laughter) That is another foolishness. They’re regularly cruel to the animals, and they’re making society. Bob: Maybe this is… Prabhupada: Just like a gang of thieves gives a signboard, “Goodman and Company.” A gang of thieves are giving signboard, “Goodman and Company.” You sometimes find such signboard. Syamasundara: Our landlord in San Francisco temple, his name was Goodman. Prabhupada: Yes. Their philosophy is that the animal, when it is not properly nourished that is cruelty. Therefore instead of allowing to starve, better kill him. Like that, theory. Is it not? Bob: Yes. Prabhupada: They say, “Oh, it is better to kill him than to give him so much…” That theory is coming in communist country. That an old man, grandfather, is suffering. Better kill him. And there, in Africa, there is a class of nation they eat, make a festival, by killing great- grandfather and grandfather. Is it not? Yes. Syamasundara: They eat them? Prabhupada: Yes. Huh? Pancadravida: I had an uncle and aunt. They were in the army so when they went overseas, they could not take their dog with them. So they said, “The poor dog, he will be so heartbroken not to be with us,” that they had him put to sleep. They killed. Prabhupada: In Gandhi’s life also, he once killed one calf or some cow. It was suffering very much. So Gandhi ordered that “Instead of suffering, just kill him.” Giriraja: Yesterday you said that the spiritual master may have to suffer due to the sinful activities of his disciple. What do you mean by sinful activities? Prabhupada: Sinful activity means therefore you promised that “I shall follow the regulative principles.” If you do not, that is sinful. That is the promise. That is sinful. You break your promise and do nasty things; therefore you are sinful. Is it not? Giriraja: Yes. (pause) But there are some things we’re instructed to do… Prabhupada: Hmm? Giriraja: There are other things which we’re instructed to do which even though we try to do we cannot do perfectly yet. Prabhupada: How is that? You try to do and cannot do? How it is? Giriraja: Like chanting attentively. Sometimes we try to… Prabhupada: That is not fault. Suppose you are trying to do something and due to your inexperience you sometimes fail, that is not fault. You are trying. There is a verse in Bhagavata that a devotee is trying his best, but due to his incapability he sometimes fails. So Krsna excuses. And in the Bhagavad-gita also it is said, api cet suduracaro bhajate mam ananya-bhak. By, due to his bad habit, past, sometimes, not willingly, but due to his habit, habit is second nature, he does something nonsense. But that does not mean he is faulty. But he must repent for that, that “I have done this.” And should try to avoid as far as possible. But habit is the second nature. Sometimes, in spite of our trying hard, the maya is so strong, push me into pitfalls. That can be excused. Krsna excuses. But those who are doing willingly something, that is not excused. On the strength that “I am a devotee, I am chanting. Therefore I may commit all this nonsense, it will be nullified.” That is the greatest offense. (end)
by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada
February 27, 1972 (contd. on February 28, 1972 and February 29, 1972), Mayapura