Room Conversation Prabhupada: You cannot say that I have got a different faith. I do not care for the laws of God. If it is a law… Just like, for example, here in the state, if you kill somebody, then you have to pay for it with your life. So if that is the law in your state, why a similar law in broader sense is not there in the courts of God, law…, law of God? You can avoid the arrest by the police and punishment by the state law by tricks, but you cannot avoid by tricks the law of God. That is not possible. If you violate the law of God, then you will be punished. If you violate the law…, just like if you touch fire your hand will be burned, so this law you cannot violate. Either you are Christian or Hindu or Muslim, if you touch fire, the law of God is that it will burn. So it will not care for you whether you are Hindu, Muslim, Christian. So law of God is applicable to everyone. Either you are Hindu or Muslim or Christian or you have got this faith or that faith, doesn’t matter. So we have got such a God whose laws are equally respectable. Atreya Rsi: Universal. Prabhupada: Universal. We present such God. Atreya Rsi: Moreover, we present a God that is lovable. Prabhupada: Lovable, yes. Practical. Anyone who comes in touch with Him, he becomes a lover of…, immediately. How you can say that is not God? You have to prove that He is not God. That you cannot. Atreya Rsi: How many qualifications does a spiritual master have in terms of being a spiritual master? Prabhupada: One qualification: he is a devotee of God. That’s all. Atreya Rsi: Also is he designated? Prabhupada: Huh? Atreya Rsi: Does he have to be designated by the former spiritual master? He has to be devotee… Prabhupada: Oh, yes, oh yes. Atreya Rsi: …surrendered and designated. That is…, identifies disciplic succession: both surrender and designation. Prabhupada: And by the result. Atreya Rsi: And the result of activity. Prabhupada: So far designation is concerned, the spiritual master authorizes every one of his disciple. But it is up to the disciple to carry out the order, able to carry out or not. It is not that spiritual master is partial, he designates one and rejects other. He may do that. If the other is not qualified, he can do that. But actually his intention is not like that. He wants that each and every one of his disciple become as powerful as he is or more than that. That is his desire. Just like father wants every son to be as qualified or more qualified than the father. But it is up to the student or to the son to raise himself to that standard. Atreya Rsi: Yes, I understand. Prabhupada: If you are incapable of raising yourself to the standard of becoming spiritual master, that is not your spiritual master’s fault, that is your fault. He wants, just like Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, amara ajnaya guru hana, By My order, every one of you become a guru. If one cannot carry out the order of Caitanya Mahaprabhu, then how he can become a guru? The first qualification is that he must be able to carry out the order of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Then he becomes guru. So that carrying out the order of Caitanya Mahaprabhu depends on one’s personal capacity. Amara ajnaya guru hana. Acceptance of Caitanya Mahaprabhu as Krsna, that is there in the sastra, in the Upanisads, in Mahabharata, in Bhagavata. Atreya Rsi: How are the references made? Prabhupada: Hm? Atreya Rsi: What references are given, Srila Prabhupada? Prabhupada: You will find all this in the Caitanya-caritamrta, references from Upanisads, from Bhagavata. Caitanya Mahaprabhu never said that I am Krsna. But the devotees, you know Sanatana Gosvami, corroborated. You know that? You have read that? Atreya Rsi: Yes, I have. Prabhupada: So sadhu sastra guru vakya. So we have to accept the authority of sastra, guru, and sadhu. So those who are sadhu, they accept Caitanya Mahaprabhu. The guru in the…, they accept. And sastra, there is acceptance. So, therefore, it is confirmed. Not only He, any avatara, he must be confirmed by these three sources: sadhu, sastra, guru. I accept Caitanya Mahaprabhu because my Guru Maharaja accepted. He accepted Caitanya Mahaprabhu as Krsna; his Guru Maharaja accepted. And the sastra is there. When guru says that Caitanya Mahaprabhu is Krsna, he quotes sastra. The sastra, guru, and those who are actually devotees, sadhu, they also accept. This is the evidence. Devotee (1) (woman): Prabhupada, is Lord Caitanya always carrying on sankirtana in the spiritual world? Prabhupada: Yes. He is the father of the sankirtana movement. Sankirtana-prayair yajanti hi sumedhasah. This is the statement in the Srimad-Bhagavatam. This Lord, incarnation of Krsna, is worshiped by sankirtana yajna, and those who are intelligent, sumedhasah, sharp brain, they worship this Lord by sankirtana. This is the statement in the Bhagavata. And, therefore, we worship Him with sankirtana. This picture, He is being worshiped by sankirtana. Yajnaih sankirtana-prayair yajanti [SB 11.5.32]. And they are all big men Sri Advaita, Sri Gadadhara, Srivasa, and others, followers. That is the proof. Krsna-varnam tvisakrsnam, He is fair complexioned, but He is always chanting Hare Krsna. Krsna-varnam iti, He is describing the science of Krsna. These are the statement, and He is doing exactly the same thing. His accepting sannyasa order is also mentioned in the sastra. So everything we have to accept through three channels: sadhu, sastra, guru. Saintly person, they you should accept; guru you should accept; and it must be mentioned in the sastra. Guru cannot manufacture something. He must quote from the sastra and then tell to his disciple. So disciple, as soon as he receives a message from guru corroborated by the sastra, then he should take it as fact. This is the way. Why there should be any more doubt? What is your argument? Atreya Rsi: There is no argument, Srila Prabhupada. Prabhupada: That’s all right. Atreya Rsi: It’s just the conditioning of the mind, the trouble of the mind. Prabhupada: That is different. That is different. Manodhara. Manodhara means those who are conditioned by the mind, their statement is not accepted according to our philosophy. Because he has no value. Atreya Rsi: They have to be cured. Prabhupada: Huh? Atreya Rsi: They have to be cured. Prabhupada: Yes. Crazy. Atreya Rsi: Yes. Prabhupada: So a crazy man’s statement is not accepted. Child’s statement, crazy man’s statement, unauthorized person’s statement, blind man’s statement, we cannot accept. Atreya Rsi: A woman’s statement? Prabhupada: Huh? Atreya Rsi: A woman’s… Prabhupada: If a woman is perfect in Krsna consciousness… Just like Jahnava-devi, Lord Nityananda’s wife, she was acarya. She was acarya. She was controlling the whole Vaisnava community. Atreya Rsi: Lord Nityananda? Prabhupada: Wife. Jahnava-devi. She was controlling the whole Gaudiya Vaisnava community. Atreya Rsi: Do you have references about that in any of your books, Srila Prabhupada? Prabhupada: I don’t think. But there are many acaryas. Maybe somewhere I might have mentioned. It is not that woman cannot be acarya. Generally, they do not become. In very special case. But Jahnava-devi was accepted as, but she did not declare. Atreya Rsi: Women today…, there is a very popular topic amongst women. They speak of liberation. And their desire to be liberated is sane, but they do not understand. And they object very strongly… I’ve spoken to some of these so-called liberated women, and they object strongly to Krsna consciousness, because they think we discriminate against women. So I have been taking advantage of opportunities to describe to them that the only means to liberation for men and woman is through Krsna consciousness. Prabhupada: Krsna does not make any discrimination. Krsna does not make. Whatever difference is there, it is bodily difference. But as soul, there is equality. So whatever difference we make, that is bodily difference. So when one is above the bodily concept of life, there is no difference. Why woman? Even cats and dogs. Woman is human being. Even cats and dogs, they have got the same spirit soul. So a learned scholar will see from the spiritual platform. Then there is equality. Atreya Rsi: Yes. This woman liberation movement, they speak like that, but they try to control every man with their body, they try to control their mind. And I told them, when you stop doing that, you’re liberated. And they talk, they talk all the time, but they’re still playing woman games. Devotee (2): They want to be men in women’s bodies. Prabhupada: Huh? Devotee (2): They want to be men in women’s bodies. They want to control, they want to be the president of the company, they want to wear pants, and they don’t want to have children. This is basically their idea. Atreya Rsi: But they want to control with their bodies, with their physical attraction. They want to use that too. Prabhupada: That is material. It has no spiritual significance. Devotee (2): Prabhupada, I’ve heard that every one of us who are in the movement now has had some association with Lord Caitanya (indistinct). Prabhupada: Yes. Devotee (2): Is it so? Prabhupada: Yes. He’s associating with Lord Caitanya just now. Devotee (2): Yes, now. But in some other life, this is what is… Prabhupada: In other life may not, but he is associating at the present. That’s a fact. Atreya Rsi: When you first came, Srila Prabhupada, a lot of people probably presented you arguments such as If you call the movement God consciousness you’ll be more successful. If you not wear tilaka and do not shave your head and do not wear robes and do not go on sankirtana, you will be more successful. And people still tell us things like this, that You tell us the philosophy, we like the philosophy, but why do you go on sankirtana? So what were some of the arguments you presented to these type of people? Prabhupada: This is the same argument, ardha-kukkuti-nyaya. You cut the mouth of the chicken because it eats, it is expensive, and keep the back side because it lays down egg. You see? Intelligent man said, I am getting every day one egg. So that side, the back side, is very good. But this side is expensive, eats. Cut it. So he does not know, he is such a foolish, that if I cut the head, then the egg- giving business will also stop. Similarly, if you accept this philosophy, then you must accept this also. Atreya Rsi: Yes, that is difference… Prabhupada: If you don’t accept this kirtana, then it will prove that you don’t accept the philosophy. Atreya Rsi: Yes. That’s the difference between Your Divine Grace and all these other bhogis. They make it according to the taste of the people. They change. That’s why this movement is so solid: no compromise. Prabhupada: No. Why compromise? My Guru Maharaja never made any compromise. Atreya Rsi: Compromise means you have some material attachment. Prabhupada: Yes, compromise means you don’t want real business but you want some money by cheating and by bluffing. That’s all. That is compromise. If I aim… Just like this Mahesh Yogi is doing: Yes, God has given you senses, why should you not enjoy? You simply enjoy. You simply give me thirty-five dollars, I’ll give you a special mantra. And here, Allen Ginsberg told me, Swamiji, you are very conservative. I said that I am the most lenient. I’m not conservative. You are conservative. You cannot give up your bad habits. I am very liberal and accepting everyone. But you are… Because you are conservative, you cannot give up your bad habits; therefore you deny to come to my camp. I am very liberal. Atreya Rsi: A Vaisnava is conservative with Krsna and liberal with everybody else. Prabhupada: That is not conservative. Conservative means unnecessarily catching something. That is conservative. If you try to protect your life, will anyone say You are very conservative. I wanted to kill you, and you want to keep your life? Is that conservatism? Do you think? Atreya Rsi: No. Prabhupada: And if the murderer thinks that You are very conservative. I wanted to kill you and you did not allow. That is not conservative. That is self-preservation, that is not conservative. Conservative means unnecessarily you catch some rules and regulation without any meaning or without any utility. That is conservative. In Sanskrit it is called niyamagraha. (end)
with His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada
San Diego, June 29, 1972, (new98)