Morning Walk Conversation Svarupa Damodara: Recently I went to a lecture called “The origin of life.” It was given by a well-known biochemist whose name is Professor Stanley Miller. He was talking about the origin of life. Prabhupada: Yes. So what is origin of life? Svarupa Damodara: He said that there are twenty amino acids, twenty of them which are necessary for the maintenance of life, the living entities. So he was discussing how these amino acids are formed before the dawn of creation, and he had so many theories, all nonsense. Prabhupada: So did you not protest? Svarupa Damodara: Yes. Then there was… After his lecture… It was a one hour long seminar, and there was question and answer. So they invited questions. Nobody asked. Prabhupada: So you did not ask? Svarupa Damodara: No, I asked later on. I asked, that “Your topic is about origin of life, but you are not talking about the origin of life. So there is no basis of your argument.” Prabhupada: Very good. Svarupa Damodara: Then I asked, “Supposing I give you the chemical materials, say, the molecules likes amino acids and the big molecules like DNA and RNA…” These are the molecules, which they think necessary for the maintenance of life. “Supposing I give you all these chemical compounds, then do you think that you will be able to put life into it. If you get all the chemical materials necessary, but will you be able to put life into it?” Then he said, “I do not know.” Prabhupada: Then why you are talking nonsense? (laughter) Then? People did not laugh? Svarupa Damodara: Yes. No, everybody was silent. Everybody was silent because everybody believes that life started from matter, all the, in the audience. So I said that “Your basis means life started from matter. That means…” He was saying that when the earth, before the life started, there was no living entities on earth. Then I said, “How do you know there is no living entities on earth?” Then he could not answer. Prabhupada: Just see. Very good. Yes. You have to go and lecture all the universities, calling these rascals fools. That will be our mission. They do not know anything and talking all nonsense. That’s it. There was nobody to challenge till now. Now we are creating persons to challenge these rascals. That is our credit. Till now whatever nonsense they are talking, people thought, “Oh he is a big scientist.” Now our scientist will protest against them, stop them talking all nonsense. That is what we want. If a lay man like me goes and protesting, he may say that “First of all you come to my level, then I shall talk with you.” Now, he cannot talk with you like that. Because you are on the level. So challenge all this nonsense. Why they talk nonsense? So later on, other persons, they did not talk with you? Svarupa Damodara: No, the chairman of the department, he was telling later on that “About theology let us talk later on.” So he dispersed the meeting after that. Theology, they thought, that I was talking on theology. Prabhupada: It is not theology, it is science. Svarupa Damodara: Yes, it is science. But he was assuming like that because his business is to protect the… This is outside speaker, comes from outside the university. Prabhupada: So how do you say it is theology? Svarupa Damodara: He was just commenting like that, that… Prabhupada: So you should have presented, “No, it is not theology. I am talking on the scientific basis.” Svarupa Damodara: I said, “Why not think like life started from life? What is wrong in it?” Because he was talking that life started from matter. So why not think like life started from life? What is wrong in it? That is why they thought I was talking about theology, when I asked them. Prabhupada: Yes, this protest must be now. If they accept life started from life, then they will have to accept God. That is their difficulty. That is their difficulty. And practically we have no experience… We can see life started from life, father begetting child. We can see father is a living man, and another child will be born. But where is life starting from matter? Where is that evidence? Life starting from life, we have got practical experience, but where is the evidence that life started from matter? Svarupa Damodara: They are assuming. There is no proof. They just think, they just assume it. Prabhupada: Assuming, what is that? There is no proof? Svarupa Damodara: There is no proof. Prabhupada: What is their proof? What they go on, proof? Svarupa Damodara: They are just speculating that life started spontaneously. There was a time, they said, it started all spontaneously, only once. Prabhupada: That’s all right. But life, whether begins from life or matter? That is the question. You are saying that life started from matter. We are saying life started from life. How to make solution of this question? For life starting from life, we can see practically. Birds, beasts, human beings, they are begetting children, eggs. The life from life, he’s a living entity. That we have got proof. But where is the proof that life started from the matter? Where is that proof? Just give one instance that “Here is a life starting from matter.” Where is that instance? Anyway, at least one audience protested. It will be recorded. And he said, “I do not know.” Svarupa Damodara: Yes. Prabhupada: Oh, then what kind of scientist he is? So they know that you are theologist? Svarupa Damodara: In the department everybody knows. (laughter) There is one theoretical chemist. His name is Max Muster (?). He is from Germany. He is a theoretical chemist. Once I invited him to come to Los Angeles to talk with Prabhupada. He agreed, and but then he told me that he will think for one day whether he will come or not. Then next day he told me that he is afraid. “I cannot come because I am afraid that I will be put on the walls.” (laughter) But he is very philosophical. He believes in God. He has some… That’s why if you talk with him, very nice. Prabhupada: So that is also nice. We are not afraid of meeting any philosopher or scientist, but they are afraid. That is our credit. All scientists know that they are on the wrong basis, but because they are scientists, they say like that. That is their position. They do not believe in their own statement. Therefore he said, “I do not know.” Svarupa Damodara: Because there is no solid background. Prabhupada: No. (pause, japa) You and Dr. Rao just make a combination, world-touring. I shall give you all expenditure. And go to the universities, scientists, and talk with them. Our kirtana party also will go. We challenge all scientists, “Come on.” We shall pay all expenditure. Ask Dr. Rao to come and join. Just like in Calcutta University, all the students… No, one leader student, he came. He talked about economic development, and he said that “Our students did not derive any faith by your theological statement.” So I told them that “Because you are all rascals, therefore you could not.” I told them freely. Because in the Bhagavad-gita… Because they are student of Sanskrit. And in the Bhagavad-gita it is said, na mam duskrtino mudhah prapadyante naradhamah [Bg. 7.15]. “So you are amongst these. You are duskrtinas, sinful, lowest of the mankind, and the university is responsible for creating such rascals.” So professors clapped and later on they said, “Swamiji, you have rightly said.” All the professors said. And so far economic question is concerned, the birds, beasts, animals, they have no economic concern. Why you have got? You are less than bird and beast, you have created this economic problem. Harer nama harer nama [Adi 17.21]. Where is the economic question? The small birds, tiny birds, they are solving their economic question, coming (makes sound:) “bup, bup,” finished. They are not stocking, they are not thinking of tomorrow, but are satisfied. They have got eating, sufficient eating, sufficient sex, sufficient intelligence to defend. As soon as we go, immediately they fly away. That is defense. They know how to defend them. They immediately understand, “They are human beings, stronger. They may do some harm. Let us fly away.” So these things are everywhere, eating, sleeping, mating and defending. There is no scarcity. Only scarcity is Krsna consciousness. That we have to preach. Theology… Logy means science, is it not? Svarupa Damodara: Yes. Prabhupada: Everything, logy means science. So theology is also science. Why they reject theology “Yes, you are talking…” What kind of scientist you are? It is a “logy,” it is a science. Why you are giving preference to one “logy” to another? What kind of scientist you are? Even though I am talking of theology, why should you reject it? In Vedic knowledge, “logy” is the basic… Nyaya-prasthana, sruti-prasthana, smrti-prasthana. These are the three ways of understanding the Absolute Truth. Svarupa Damodara: Logic and argument? Prabhupada: Yes. Nyaya-pra… Just like Vedanta-sutra, it is logic and argument to approach the Absolute Truth. Athato brahma jijnasa: “Now it is the time for inquiring about Brahman.” This is logic. Because other animals, they cannot inquire about the Absolute Truth, but human being can, therefore the first proposition is, atha atah, “Now because you have got human form of life, therefore you should now inquire about the Absolute Truth.” This is the beginning. It is logic. And actually we feel, “Who has created the ocean? Who has created the stars? How it is floating? Whether there are human beings?” So many questions. That should be solved now. And actually they are doing, the scientists. Scientists means they are also trying to solve so many problems. So that is, human being can be scientist. Not a dog can be scientist. So why not become the supreme scientist to know the Absolute Truth. That is Vedanta-sutra. Athato brahma jijnasa. Now you propose that “Why don’t you accept that life begins from life?” What is their objection? This is also theory, and why not accept this theory? And now let us compare, which theory is feasible. Why you are afraid? Svarupa Damodara: They are silent. Prabhupada: Biased. Rascal bias. Karandhara: They say life is also matter. Prabhupada: Life is matter, that’s all right. But produce from matter life. That you cannot do. Life is also matter or we say, “Matter is also life.” We say that. Sarvam khalv idam brahma. Brahman means life. So everything is life. The basis of everything. Just like my body is depending on my life. Therefore the whole cosmic material manifestation is also depending on God. So matter is another energy of life. That we practically see. So in that sense we can say that matter is also life. That we can say. Or obversely, we can say, “life is matter,” that we can accept. Svarupa Damodara: Matter is a part of life? Component. Prabhupada: Yes. Just like this nail is coming. This is matter. But it is coming from life. Because the body is in life, therefore the nail is coming, daily growing. Any child can understand. When this body is dead, no more nail will grow. Therefore this is matter coming from life. This body grows because the life is there. Life is there. If there is no life, the body will not grow. So it’s natural conclusion, that matter grows upon life. And because life is the cause and matter is the effect, therefore as in the effect the cause is there… Just like cotton. Cotton is the cause and the thread is the effect. In the thread there is cotton. That is understood. Similarly, because life is the cause, matter is the effect, therefore in the effect there is life. In another form. Karandhara: They say there is no difference between that life and that matter. Prabhupada: No, how can you say rascal? Then you are rascal immediately. There is so much difference. Then immediately you talk like rascal. There is difference. You have to accept superior, inferior. Just like two things. When you go to purchase something the shopkeeper gives you, “Here is superior.” Although there is no difference, but there is difference of superiority and inferiority. That you have to accept. Therefore you pay more price to the superior. How there is no difference? This is another rascaldom. You have to distinguish between superior and inferior. Karandhara: Well, they say it is all made up of the same elements. Prabhupada: That is all right, but do why you pay more? That is difference. Question is difference. You have to accept difference. Why do you pay more for the superior thing? That is difference. Why do you pay more respect to a superior person? That is difference. Mr. Nixon is also a human being, you are also human being. But if Mr. Nixon immediately comes, we shall all pay him respect. Why? That is difference. Karandhara: That’s all on the same plane. Prabhupada: That’s all not. That not all. He is the superior, He is getting respect. Therefore he is not equal to you. You cannot say that. You may say… A rascal may say that “A superior person is as good as I am.” But people will not accept it. People will say, “No, you are a rascal. He is an intelligent.” Although you have got two hands, he has got two hands, that doesn’t matter. So you must distinguish between superior and inferior. We say it is one, but superior and inferior. Svarupa Damodara: But in other words, the matter cannot grow without a living force. Prabhupada: No, that is another branch of, I mean to say, accepting matter as life. We have to distinguish them, that life is superior than matter. That we have to accept. You cannot say both of them are all the same. No. We have to distinguish them as superior, inferior. Svarupa Damodara: That is why the scientists, when they are trying to find out the origin of life, they are concerned only on the matter, the elements, chemical elements and the chemical compounds, the molecules, not on the superior energy. Prabhupada: No, there is superior energy. The same example. Just like because I am now living, I am eating something, going to the stomach, the chemical action is going on. If I am dead, it will not. Therefore life is superior. On account of presence of life, the foodstuff which we are taking, that is being divided into different chemicals, some urine, some stool, some blood, and they are being utilized differently. So how can you say? But without life, such distinction will not act. Therefore life is superior. Even accepting life is also matter. Karandhara: They say there is no evidences that that life is eternal. Prabhupada: Life is eternal? That is another question. That we shall see. First of all, you accept that life is superior. Make solution one after another. Karandhara: Well so long as they do not see that life as eternal or significantly different… Prabhupada: No eternal, that can be understood by any child. First you have to accept that life is superior. Karandhara: That is just a conventional superiority. That superiority is just conventional or relative. Prabhupada: Why conventional? Actually. Just like a child and a teacher, they are of the same. He is also human being and children also, human being. But still, the children are controlled by the teacher. Therefore superior. It is not convention. If you disobey the superior, you will be punished. That superiority is explained in the Bhagavad-gita. apareyam itas tv anyam prakrtim viddhi me param jiva-bhutam maha-baho yayedam dharyate jagat Svarupa Damodara: It is explained nicely in today’s Bhagavata sloka that by the influence of Krsna, the rivers are flowing filled with water, the trees are bearing fruits, flowers of the… Prabhupada: That’s a fact. I have several times explained that in higher sense there is no matter. Did I not? So life and matter equal, that can be accepted, but there is superior and inferior position. Just like Krsna is life, I am also life. Krsna is also person, I am also person. Krsna has got… What Krsna, propensities He has got, I have also got. Krsna wants to love another girl, so I want to love. A girl wants to love another boy, so Radharani wants to love Krsna. So everything qualitatively are all equal, but Krsna can marry at a time millions of wives. You cannot maintain even one wife. That is the position. Nityo nityanam cetanah, Vedas say. That is the difference. He is life, I am also life. All the life symptoms, there is in Krsna and there is in me, but still I am inferior, He is superior. And that is the law, that the inferior should be subordinately serving to the superior. Therefore we want to…, our business is to serve Krsna, although qualitatively we are one. That inferior, superior, that is the difference between God and the living entity. Svarupa Damodara: I am not clear about the life equal to matter. Prabhupada: Life equal to matter means the same thing. Just like here you pinch, you feel, but here with a, I mean to say, iron instrument you pinch, you will not feel. Both things are the same, is it not? But here you feel, here you do not feel. So matter means where there is less feeling, and life means where there is acute feeling. That is meaning. Svarupa Damodara: I can understand that matter is a part of life. Prabhupada: This matter… You can understand by the finger. This matter, this nail, is production of this part. This part is life and this part is not life. But it is a production of this life. When you have cut your nails, you don’t feel pain. But same instrument you touch your little, half inch down, immediately you feel pain. So therefore although qualitatively… This is also produced of matter, as produced of this part. But where there is feeling, that is spiritual, and where there is no feeling, that is matter. What is Krsna consciousness? The human being is the same. But as soon as he feels that “There is Krsna,” he is spiritualist. As soon as he does not feel, he is materialist. That is the difference. It is the question of feeling. Matter means where there is absence of Krsna consciousness. In other things there is also consciousness. Because there is not Krsna consciousness, it is material. And so far we are concerned, we have got the same consciousness, but Krsna consciousness. Therefore we are superior, spiritual. So this material world means this part, and spiritual world means this part. This is the difference. Here you have got feeling. So the conclusion is when you have feeling in Krsna consciousness, that is spiritual, that is superior. When you have no feeling of Krsna consciousness, that is inferior. The same thing can be turned into superior and inferior by the change of Krsna consciousness. Svarupa Damodara: So matter can be converted to spirit. Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Just like expert electrician, the same energy, electric, converting into heat, converting into refrigerator. The energy is the same. Both places the electricity is working, but by his expert management, one is heater, one is cooler. But heat and cool completely different, just opposite. That is stated in the Visnu Purana. Parasya saktir vividhaiva sruyate… Ah. Visnu-saktih para. Both matter and spirit, they are energy of the Supreme. So the energy or the energetic—non-different. But by His arrangement, one is working as superior, one is working as inferior. The same example, that the same electric energy is acting as cooler and acting as heater. But the energy is the same. Similarly, originally the energy is God’s energy. So God’s energy and God, there is no difference. But by his manipulation one is working as material energy, another is working… This is difference. Therefore originally it comes all spiritual energy, life. Therefore we have to take everything from life, not from the dead. Same example: The finger is first coming, life, and then the nail is coming, matter. Not that first of all nail is coming. You can study. This is meditation. Svarupa Damodara: So in any case, everything is controlled by the superior energy. Prabhupada: Yes. That superior energy is life. A small seed of banyan tree fructifies; there is life, and the big tree comes. So many wood, so many twigs, so many things, huge quantity. Here is the proof. Life is the origin. According to our Vedic description, Brahma is first created. He is life. Not that matter is first created, then Brahma comes. No. And Brahma comes from Visnu. Visnu is life, the supreme life. Then Brahma creates this universe. That is Vedic version. What do you think? Svarupa Damodara: Yes. Prabhupada: So life is the origin. Svarupa Damodara: Life started from life. It cannot start from matter. Prabhupada: No. If you can establish this theory, you will get also Nobel Prize. Yes, try for… Yes, do it. And all these rascals will be defeated. Do that. Their so-called theory that life has come out of matter… Do this by your education. Yad-uttamasloka-gunanuvarnanam. Here is life, Krsna. Here begins everything. Krsna says, aham sarvasya prabhavo mattah sarvam pravartate [Bg. 10.8]. Krsna says. Vedanta says, janmady asya yatah [Bhag. 1.1.1]. Everything is there. Simply we have to present it scientifically. That’s all. So you were the only person to protest against him in the meeting? Svarupa Damodara: Yes. Nobody asked any questions. Brahmananda.: Blind leading the blind. Prabhupada: That’s all. Andha yathandhair upaniyamanah. Anyway he has admitted, “I do not know.” That is sufficient defeat for him. But they are shameless. In spite of being defeated, they won’t admit that “I am defeated.” Not gentlemen. Formerly between two learned scholars there will be argument. If one is defeated… Just like Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya. As soon as he became defeated, he became His disciple. That’s all. That was the system. Not that we go on arguing for hours, and one is defeated; still, he remains the same. No. If you are defeated, then you must accept the other party as your master. That was the system. As soon as he said that I do not know, he should have become your disciple. That is the system. “If you do not know why you have come to teach me.” Svarupa Damodara: He should come and become a disciple of Srila Prabhupada. Prabhupada: No, Prabhupada… No. We want everyone to become Krsna’s disciple. That is our mission. We are disciplic succession. The original master is Krsna. (end)
with His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada
May 2, 1973, Los Angeles