Morning Walk Conversation Prabhupada: This cloud is for rain. Svarupa Damodara: It was raining a little bit when I came, in the south, towards Laguna Beach, it was raining. And when I came this side, it was very clear. Prabhupada: You approach the United Nations also. What they are doing? Simply wasting money. What is their aim and object, United Nations? Svarupa Damodara: Peaceful co-existence, cooperation among different nations. Prabhupada: So what they have done so far? Svarupa Damodara: Nothing. Prabhupada: Just see. Brahmananda: Many speeches. Prabhupada: Peaceful co-existence is this, Krsna consciousness. Brahmananda: They did not do anything. These posts are still here. Srutakirti: They are finding it very difficult. (pause) Prabhupada: What they are doing there? Something aimless. (some noise of people yelling a distance away) [break] …because frogs never come to the… You will never find a frog in the ocean. Did you mark it? Brahmananda: No. Prabhupada: You have got so many animals but never a frog. Svarupa Damodara: Maybe they don’t like the salt. Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, frog is conspicuous by absence. There is no frog. Therefore that example is given. They have never seen what is the ocean. (laughs) So all these scientists, they are frogs. They have never seen what is the kingdom of God. Therefore this example, “Doctor Frog.” Doctor frog is never visible in the ocean. They are visible only within this circle, well. That’s all. Svarupa Damodara: This example is available in Bhagavatam, Prabhupada. Prabhupada: Yes, in nyaya-sastra. Kupa-manduka-nyaya. Kupa means well, and manduka means frog. “The frog in the well.” The frogs, sometimes they are in river also, in bank of the rivers. But never in the ocean. Svarupa Damodara: The environment is not suitable. They are fresh water species. Prabhupada: Well, they are also aquatics. They also live in water. But they are unfit for living in ocean water. So many varieties of life, different living entities meant for different purposes. Svarupa Damodara: According to the desire of the… Prabhupada: According to the desire of the living entity. All facilities, whatever you want, you can have. Harer nama harer nama harer nama eva kevalam [Adi 17.21]. Another logic is bakanda-nyaya. Bakanda. Baka and anda. Baka, the duck. And anda, the testicle, testicle of the bull. The bull is going and the testicle is hanging, and the duck is after it. He is thinking here is a fish. You find him always going…when it will drop. Bakanda. This is nature’s study. [break] The baka, the duck, they are after fish. So the testicle is hanging, he’s thinking it’s a big fish, it will drop now. So it will never drop but he is going after it. Just see. Neither it is fish. Another logic is aja-gala-stana, aja-gala-stana. You have seen on the goats in the neck, just like nipples. If one is expecting milk from that nipple, he is also fool. It is not nipple but it looks like nipple. Aja-gala-stana-nyaya. Svarupa Damodara: It is like the mirage in the desert. Prabhupada: Yes, illusion, these are illusions. Aja-gala-stana-nyaya is applied for these rascals, those who are thinking that from matter life is coming. Exactly the same. They are thinking that here are nipples, there will milk come. Let us milk here. Brahmananda: But they are not getting, they are saying maybe in the future. Prabhupada: Yes, in future, yes. (laughter) In Sanskrit logic all these examples are there from nature’s study. Brahmananda: Simple. Prabhupada: Simple, yes. Another is nagna-matrka-nyaya. Nagna-matrka-nyaya, just like sometimes if somebody says, “Mother, when you were a child, you were naked. Why do you put cloth now?” Nagna-matrka-nyaya. The mother was naked when she was a child. Therefore she should remain naked still. That is nagna-matrka-nyaya. Brahmananda: What is that in connection? Prabhupada: It has connection, if somebody was not very important and now he has become important, so the logic is how this man can be important? This logic. That because the mother was naked in the childhood, therefore she should not put on any garment. This is nagna-matrka-nyaya. We change according to the circumstances. You cannot say that this must remain like this. Svarupa Damodara: It is also not because of the development of consciousness. Prabhupada: Yes, yes, yes. Everything is development of consciousness. So when one comes to Krsna consciousness that is perfect. Consciousness is there even in the tree, but that is not developed. When you cut the tree, it feels. Even a child their consciousness is not developed. Sometimes operation in the body of a child does not require anaesthetic, because they do not feel much. Can go on surgical operation on the child’s body and they will feel little. Because the consciousness is not developed. Svarupa Damodara: So according to the consciousness… Prabhupada: Development. Svarupa Damodara: When a person becomes very old, he should be very intelligent. Prabhupada: No no. It is a question of consciousness of the body. That does not mean when a dog becomes very old he becomes very experienced. No. Consciousness according to the body. The same theory. Because a child’s body is not developed, the consciousness is also not developed. Hare Krsna. And these rascals say that because the consciousness is not developed, he has no soul. Soul is there even within the tree. But because the consciousness is not developed, the sensation is less. Svarupa Damodara: But still the consciousness in a particular species is developing. Prabhupada: Everywhere is developing consciousness. And the topmost development is Krsna consciousness. Svarupa Damodara: But the modern science, they say when one becomes old, the memory becomes short and then they tend to… Prabhupada: Yes. The body has changed. Therefore you have to accept that body has changed. Therefore next conclusion is when this body is lost he gets another body. Change of body. Seasonal changes. That one verse in the Bhagavad-gita, tatha dehantara-praptir dhiras tatra na muhyati [Bg. 2.13]. Dehantara-praptih, acceptance of another body. Then these modern scientists, they do not know this. They sometimes explain medical science, that blood corpuscles are changing, do they not? Svarupa Damodara: There are sometimes white, they say, suppose when I am injured, my external something hurts. They say the white blood corpuscles are responsible to protect the body. But when the white blood corpuscles is not enough, then infection normally occurs. Prabhupada: Anyway there is change of corpuscles. And with the change of corpuscles there is change of body. That is scientific. Therefore body is changing every moment, so why not after death? Tatha dehantara-praptih. Svarupa Damodara: So consciousness is also subject to body’s changes, change of body. Prabhupada: Yes. Body’s circumstances association. Sangat sanjayate kamah. According to association, atmosphere, circumstances, the desires changes. So that is, desire means consciousness. Just like our boys, they had different consciousness before coming to Krsna consciousness. Just like you are also scientist, there are other scientists. But your consciousness is different from theirs. Therefore you could challenge him like that. If you can create life by accumulation of these facts. He says that I do not know. He is not confident in his science. Svarupa Damodara: He is not experienced. He has not seen yet. Prabhupada: He is not above the defects, four defects of conditioned life. You know these four defects? Svarupa Damodara: Yes. Prabhupada: Illusion, mistake, cheating, imperfectness. They are aware of the imperfectness of the senses. Still they are proud of their knowledge. This is illusion. (end)
with His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada
May 5, 1973, Los Angeles