with David Wynne
His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada
July 9, 1973, London
Prabhupada: …recently I’ve heard that the people in the airport protested against Indira Gandhi, that “Give us rain.” Yes. That is Vedic civilization ideal. Why there is rain then no rain? The king should be responsible. One brahmana lost his son. He immediately went to the king and asked him that “The son has died before the death of the father; why this irregularity? You are responsible.” You see? The ideal is that the king is representative of God, because we are all sons of God. We have come here in this material world for our proper guidance. The king is responsible, the spiritual master is responsible, the father is responsible, the elderly persons are responsible. Because you told me that we have to work for other. That other is Krsna. If we utilize our intelligence for serving Krsna under the guidance of the king or the spiritual master or the father, then the society is perfect. That is ideal civilization. What is your opinion about this? How do you think this ideal…
David Wynne: I think it’s… I… I… I wonder when it will come. Will it come on this level or what…?
Prabhupada: Immediately, provided you take to Krsna consciousness.
David Wynne: Yes.
Prabhupada: Immediately. It is not a question of when. Just like here is light. It doesn’t depend there is darkness. You can remain in the darkness and immediately come to the light, and from the light immediately go to the darkness. So, this darkness and light, they are existing, co-existing. It is my choice whether to remain in the darkness or in the light. It is my choice. As soon as you are in the darkness, there is no light. As soon as you are in light, there is no darkness. It is your choice. And this Krsna consciousness is light. And anything else, that is maya. So we can accept either maya or Krsna. If you take to maya, then you’ve spoiled your energy and time. If you take to Krsna, you utilize your energy and time. Everything is there, ready. You haven’t got to create. Everything is there. Just like night is there and day is there. You can keep yourself always in day. Do you know how to do it?
David Wynne: Keep going round, I suppose. (devotees laugh)
Prabhupada: Yes. Nowadays it is not difficult, because…
Devotee (1): Airplane.
Prabhupada: Just like I started from India at eleven o’clock, and I came here at half past eight, the sunlight was still there. So if you proceed still further, further towards Western side, the night will not be able to come. So you can travel always in daylight. (laughs) Don’t allow. It is an example.
David Wynne: Why do we choose the dark?
David Wynne: Why do we all choose the dark? Why are we all in the dark, most of us?
Prabhupada: Dark means without Krsna consciousness—-darkness.
Devotee (1): He asked why do we usually choose the darkness.
David Wynne: And most people.
Prabhupada: Due to bad association.
David Wynne: To…?
Prabhupada: Bad association.
David Wynne: Ah.
Prabhupada: Therefore, our Society is association. If we keep good association, then we don’t touch the darkness. What is that association? There is a song, sat-sanga cari goinu asate vilasa teka name lagi loma karma bandha phansa.(?) Sat-sanga. Sat-sanga means association with the devotees. That is called sat-sanga. So the, one poet, Vaisnava poet, is regretting that “I did not keep association with the devotees, and I wanted to enjoy life with the nondevotees. Therefore I’m being entangled in the fruitive activities.” Karma bandha phansa. Entanglement. Here in this material world we act, and the result is there. Again we enjoy the result and act, again another result. We act, another result, another result. Because as soon as you act, there will be some result, good or bad. So, good or bad, by good result we get good birth, good money, good bodily features, good education—these are the effects of good work. And the effects of bad work, low-grade family, abominable, ugly bodily features, no education, no money, poor— these are the two effects of material good and bad work. But those who are trying to be transcendental both to the good and bad work, devotees, they are perfect. Because in this material world either you do good work or bad work, you have to suffer the material condition. Just like you are, suppose you are Englishman, you are well situated. But you can not avoid the influence of the weather. (laughs)
David Wynne: No.
Prabhupada: That is our problem. Either you become rich man or poor man, but you have to undergo. (aside:) Make the light. There is switch. (pause) So our position is that we are in this material world. George has sung that “I am in the material world.” Yes, very sensible song. (laughs) He’s good boy, realizing, he also… So this material life is not good. Material life is not good in this sense, because you have to change your body. Sometimes good birth, sometimes not good birth. Sometimes Englishman, sometimes cats, dogs. Because after death you’ll get a body that will be chosen not by you but by the material nature. You’ll create your body by your present activities, and nature will simply award you that body. So, so long we have got this material body, the four kinds of miserable conditions, repetition of birth, death, old age and disease, you have to suffer. Therefore, this human life should be utilized in such a way that we do not become subject to these four tribulations, birth, death, old age and disease. That is perfection. But people are not given that chance, the modern education, modern civilization. They’ve no knowledge; they do not know that there is life after death, although it is a simple fact. Just like in our present existence we have got past, present and future. Just like you are young man, you have your past. You are a child, or a boy, now that is past. Present, you are young man, and in future you are expecting to become old man. So as you have got past, present and future, similarly, I’m old man, I’ve got my past life, why not future? What is the reason to deny it? Past, present, future, that is the time calculation. I had my past, I’ve now present, and why is my future? They do not care for the future. They’re so blind. There must be future. So what I’m doing for the future? Just like in this life we collect some money, keep in the bank balance so that in future, old age, I may not be in difficulty. Similarly, what a human being should do for his future life? That he does not know, although past, present, future is there. So this is foolishness. He doesn’t care for the future. So one who is foolish, without any knowledge of the future, whatever he’s doing is defeated—in ignorance, because it is ignorance. Just like a boy does not take education, does not think of future. That is not very good. We must be prepared for the future, his next life. Yes, where is that civilization? Where is that education, that people are thinking for future life? Is there any educational system at the present moment? So everything is being defeated. Parabhavas tavad abodha-jato yavan na jijnasata atma-tattvam. Abodha-jata, these rascal fools, born foolish. He does not inquire about the self-realization, so whatever he is doing, it is all defeat, he is spoiling his time, because he does not know. Atma-tattvam, the science of self-realization. So in ignorance, whatever you do there is defeat. And they’re being defeated and they’re thinking “I’m victorious.” This is called maya. This is called maya. So this Krsna consciousness movement is very scientific. We are trying to save the living entity from disastrous condition. This is the aim and mission of Krsna consciousness. It is not a religious sentiment, no. It is a very scientific. And we have got so many books already printed, and many books coming. Each and every one. You have seen our books?
David Wynne: I have seen the one that (indistinct) gave.
Devotee (2): Bhagavad-gita he has seen.
Prabhupada: If you read carefully, each and all carries volumes of meaning. David Wynne: Yes.
Devotee (2): He’s got the Bhagavad-gita that the Queen was reading.
Devotee (2): She was looking at…
Prabhupada: Bhagavad-gita, our Bhagavad-gita?
Devotee (2): Yes. Queen Elizabeth was looking, and she gave…
Prabhupada: Yes, as far as possible you should help everyone how to be, how to become enlightened about his future. That is real humanitarian work—to save a human being from the future disastrous condition of life. Just like a father thinks of his son, that he may not be unhappy in his future life. So it is the duty of the king, it is the duty of the father, it is the duty of the spiritual master to see that his subordinate is not falling a victim of future disastrous life.
Devotee (2): Didn’t the Queen make some remarks about that? She said something to you…
David Wynne: Yes, she said, “How marvelous it would be to completely trust Krsna.”
Prabhupada: That’s very nice.
David Wynne: She said, ah, “What a relief to be able to pass all responsibility to Krsna.”
Prabhupada: Yes. But that one has to learn, how to surrender to Krsna. The sentiment is very nice. It is just fitting from the royal… Because she’s after all favored, she has taken birth in the royal family, so she is not ordinary woman. And her intelligence must be extraordinary. So she has remarked like that, what is that exact word?
David Wynne: I think the exact word… She said “How marvelous to be able to give all responsibility to Krsna.”
Prabhupada: Yes. Krsna is ready.
David Wynne: Yes. And she said…
Prabhupada: But the thing is from our side Krsna expects something.
David Wynne: (laughs)
Prabhupada: Krsna is not a dead stone. Reciprocal. If you fully surrender to Krsna, then Krsna takes full responsibility. If you keep some reservation, Krsna also keep reservation.
David Wynne: Yeah.
Prabhupada: This is it. When Krsna understands that you have fully surrendered, He takes full responsibility. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita:
sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayisyami… [Bg. 18.66]
Krsna is always ready to take responsibility, provided we give. If we think that “Let me do in my own way, and Krsna be responsible for my fault…” (laughs) That is not… Reciprocal. Responsive cooperation. Krsna is always ready to cooperate. So by the grace of Krsna you have got some position. Try to understand this great science of Krsna consciousness and spread it whenever it is possible, whenever it is possible. That will make your life sublime. Yes. Yare dekha tare kaha ‘krsna’-upadesa [Cc. Madhya 7.128] Caitanya Mahaprabhu, an expansion. “Whomever you meet, you just give him the advice Krsna has given.” Krsna has given all an instruction, advice here in the Bhagavad-gita. So if you simply repeat, your life is perfect. Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. Let us say, you are surrendered to Krsna you’ll be happy. What is the difficulty? If I, you, fully surrender to Krsna, and simply ask people that “You also surrender to Krsna,” what is the difficulty?
Devotee (1): Sometimes people ask, “If I surrender to God, give everything to God, then how will the state go on, how will the work, the factories, how would all that go on?
Prabhupada: That, Krsna is taking responsibility. Krsna says, aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayisyami. He takes responsibility. Otherwise what is the use of surrender unto Krsna? He takes responsibility.
Devotee (1): (laughs) Just can’t go wrong, then.
Prabhupada: No. Krsna says aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayisyami. Actually Krsna is doing everything. We are thinking, “I’m doing it.” We are doing nothing. Just like he has become a famous sculptor. Why you could not? Why, what is the reason? Sarvasya caham hrdi sannivistah. “I am seated in everyone’s heart.” When He works, Krsna says, “Do like this; it will be perfect like this.” So Krsna is guiding. And everyone is being guided by Krsna, even in this condition of life. And when he fully surrenders, how much guidance he will come his way? Even without surrender he’s guided. Without His guidance he can not do it.
David Wynne: That’s true.
Prabhupada: You cannot do it. Cannot do anything. Sarvasya caham hrdi sannivisto mattah smrtir jnanam apohanam ca [Bg. 15.15]. Krsna is guiding everyone, even an ant. Krsna is giving information, “Mr. Ant, there is a grain of sugar, you can go there.” Immediately goes. Otherwise, how he gets the information? For him, one hundred miles away, a grain of sugar, and he goes there. He did not inform. Who informs him? Who informed him?
David Wynne: You feel this very much when one’s trying to make sculpture, because it is impossible for a man; one can’t do it…
David Wynne: …one has to wait and be passive…
Prabhupada: If Krsna withdraws the intelligence, you cannot work. So Krsna is guiding already, but He’s guiding at the present moment according to your whims. “You wanted to do this? All right.” Krsna is giving intelligence: “Do it.” But when he’ll agree to act according to the whims of Krsna, that is perfection.
David Wynne: How do you agree to this?
David Wynne: How does one agree to this?
Prabhupada: There is process.
David Wynne: Yeah.
Prabhupada: Yes. You have to learn it. In the conditioned state we act according to “my whims.” In the liberated state we act according to Krsna’s whims. That’s all. That is the difference. That is the difference. Just see, Bhagavad-gita. Arjuna wanted to act according to his whims, “Oh, He is going now fight with my grandfather, with my teacher.” These are the problems. Krsna… “No, I cannot fight.” And then at last he agreed to act according to the whims of Krsna: “Yes, karisye vacanam tava. Nasto mohah smrtir labdha [Bg. 18.73].” Find out this verse. Nasto mohah. Whatever we are speaking, there is reference in the Bhagavad-gita. We don’t speak anything according to our whims. No.
nasto mohah smrtir labdha tvat-prasadan mayacyuta sthito ’smi gata-sandehah karisye vacanam tava [Bg. 18.73]
“Arjuna said: My dear Krsna, O infallible one, my illusion is now gone. I have regained my memory by Your mercy, and I am now firm and free from doubt and am prepared to act according to Your instructions.”
Prabhupada: There it is. “I am prepared now to act according to Your whims.” That is Krsna consciousness. When he was trying to act according to his whim, the necessity of instruction of Bhagavad-gita was there. And when he heard Bhagavad-gita, he’s changed. “Now this is…, all doubts are gone. At last I will act according to your…” This is… Very important verse. Changing. Changing the whole picture. This is Krsna consciousness. Same Arjuna, same fighting, same battlefield, everything same, but still everything changed. The consciousness is changed. Externally nothing changed; internally changed. This change is equal for perfection.
Devotee (2): So one doesn’t have to give up his…
Prabhupada: No. Arjuna was a soldier, he was a fighter. The battlefield was there, the war was there, everything was there. He did not… He took to Krsna consciousness does not mean he gave up the field and went away. He remained there, but simply the consciousness was changed. He was not willing to fight on his own account. He changed his opinion, “Yes, now I shall fight. By Your grace, my all doubts are now gone.” This is required, this is perfection. And there’s the picture how Krsna is guiding Arjuna. When the ranks are formed.
Devotees and David Wynne: Yes.
Prabhupada: “Just here. Just here.”
Devotee (3): This picture is in George’s album.
David Wynne: Yeah, yeah. When I was young my mother died. I was very unhappy, and I read the…, a bit where Krsna says to Arjuna that “That which is real always exists, and that which isn’t real never existed at all,” and then I stopped being unhappy. Because this book is…, it tells you everything. (end)