Morning Walk Conversation Nitai: Morning Walk, January 12th, 1974, Los Angeles. [break] Prabhupada: :…accepting a leader, one has to consider what is the position of the leader. They do not take such account. Now they calculate if the leader is very cunning, then he is qualified. They think that politics means cheating, cunning, bluffing. That is good qualification. Lloyd George, sometimes before he came, he said, “Consistency in politics is the qualification of an ass.” He must be inconsistent. And here, this is defense. Tasya vartamanasya. How he is situated [break] …as it was everywhere, especially in India, that if one is not God conscious, he is a third-class rascal. That standard is now gone. Now to become God conscious, to talk of God, is a business of primitive fools. They think like that. Is it not? Prajapati: Yes. They say they are realistic and we are not realistic. Prabhupada: Who is realistic? The rascals? Prajapati: They think that people who believe in God are not realistic. Prabhupada: Oh. And what is the realistic? Satsvarupa: To work in social reform or politics is realistic. Prabhupada: Reform means that continuously reform? Then where is perfection? Svarupa Damodara: They have no standard. Prabhupada: No standard. What is the standard of reform, that they do not know. Wherefrom the swan came? Satsvarupa: Krsna. Svarupa Damodara: When the facilities are there… Prabhupada: Yes. Prajapati: [break] …from Rupanuga Maharaja stating that six devotees around the country now will be running for political offices, hopefully just to inject Krsna consciousness into the political arena. Prabhupada: He is one of them? Prajapati: No, no. Not Rupanuga Maharaja. I am one of them in this area, here. Prabhupada: So which post you are going to contest? Prajapati: United States Congress. Prabhupada: Oh. Senator? Prajapati: Well, congressman. There’s two offices of the legislature: the Senate and the House of Representatives. For each state there are two senators, no matter what the population, and for the house of representatives, every so many hundred thousand people, there is one representative. Prabhupada: That’s like in England, House of Commons. And senator, House of Lords. Prajapati: Yes, that’s right. [break] …have been projected. One is that we preach very boldly and hold no bars, make it known completely what our platform is. The other attitude is one of making up propaganda more palatable by saying if elected we will reinstitute prayers into schools and not tell them much more than that. Prabhupada: Why in the school? In every home. Prajapati: Well, it was a very big issue several years ago. They used to have a prayer at the beginning of each school day. But then one demoniac lady, one atheist, she, by her, simply by her will-power got the Supreme Court to rule that unconstitutional. Now prayers are not allowed in schools anymore unless we make an amendment to the constitution, saying “Yes, we can have a prayer in school.” Then it would be allowed. Prabhupada: Even prayers are allowed, unless there is scientific knowledge of God, that will not help. The prayer’s still going on in the churches, but what improvement? They have become hackneyed. It requires training. Prajapati: Then our political campaign should be educating the people in general as much as possible in the principles of Krsna consciousness. Prabhupada: Yes. It is taking a chance to educate people. Svarupa Damodara: We may not be successful in the beginning, but it is a good way of preaching, exposing to the general mass. Prabhupada: Yes. [break] Nara-narayana: As they elect the congressmen generally to solve different social problems which are existing in the society, so in our campaigning process, should we try to show them practical application of the philosophy for solving all their social problems, or should we preach philosophically? Prabhupada: No. We should preach that “Stop these things. No illicit sex, no gambling, no meat-eating.” Practically you teach them. This is the real social problem. Umapati: Should we also try to introduce legislation immediately to close the slaughterhouses? Prabhupada: No. If you want good men, good leader, you must be free from all these, I mean, sinful activities. Otherwise there is no question of good leader, or good man. There is no question. First principle is this. Just like a patient, he must abide by the prescription, that “You must do this, you must do not this.” Then there is cure. And simply if he goes on in his own way, then there is no value of consulting a physician. So the first program is that “If you want really good leader and if you want to become yourself also good, then you must give up these four sinful activities. Otherwise, all your scheme will be failure.” Umapati: So we would tell the people that if we were elected we would try to close the slaughterhouses. Prabhupada: No, no, that is different thing. Why you should say, revolting something. You say that “Don’t eat meat.” That is slaughterhouse closing. If you say that “Close your slaughterhouse,” they will think that these are, what is called? Umapati: Radical. Prabhupada: Ideal, radicalist, idealist. But if you can induce them… That is also another process… Umapati: Through influence. Prabhupada: They agree. Then automatically, slaughterhouse will be closed. If there is no customer for meat, then slaughterhouse will be closed. Just like Gandhi started this movement, non-cooperation, “Don’t cooperate with the British government.” That was his… Because the Britishers were ruling India with the cooperation of the Indians. Otherwise, how they could rule? The soldiers were Indian, the police were Indian, the secretariat, office, clerks, they were Indians—all Indians. But they manufactured in such a way that they were cooperating. So Gandhi took the route that “You non- cooperate; then the Britishers will automatically go away.” That was his movement. Similarly, if we educate public that “You must find out a leader who is free from these sinful activities. Then you will be happy. And you also give up. Otherwise, how you will be able to select such a leader?” This should be our real propaganda. Otherwise they will think that “They’re against our real joyful life. So these men are useless.” You have to explain that “If these things, sinful activities, you prolong, then you cannot become happy.” Umapati: People will ask us, if we get into office. What are we going to do? What is the first thing we are going to do? What can we do? Since there are many, many other legislators and many other senators, they say, “You are only one man. How you can possibly change the country if we elect you?” Prabhupada: That I know. That I know, that I am… Therefore we are, internally, we are not after the office; we are after educating people. Yes. Even if you go to office, you cannot do. Even if give manifesto, that you will stop slaughterhouse, and you are elected a senator, you cannot stop. Because they are majority there. If you say they will laugh, “What this nonsense saying?” So even if you give any manifesto, you will not be able to carry out it, because their majority is there. Simply you can general way educate them. Or you can give what is there. There is no harm. Umapati: But there are many people in this country that would like to see prayer put back in schools. Even though they don’t understand prayer, at least they like the idea. They are sentimentally attached to it. It was one idea that if we at least say that we would try to get prayer put back in schools… Prabhupada: But prayer, without these things, background, there is no value of prayer. Umapati: Yet there are a lot of people who would vote for us on sentiment at least, that at least we are for prayer in schools. Prabhupada: Then it is all right. Prayer, to advise people to offer prayer is not bad, but unless one is purified, that will not stay. But prayer, they are still going to church, but still, the churches are being closed. Umapati: Still, that could be influenced in the right direction afterward. Prabhupada: Well, influenced, to a certain extent. But as soon as you say, “prayer to God,” they will laugh, “What is this God and prayer?” Umapati: Well, some people won’t. Some people still have at least a sentimental attachment to God, and they would like to see at least a semblance of prayer in school. Prabhupada: Do something practical. “Prayer means to chant the holy name of the Lord. If you have no holy name of the Lord, we are giving you. So you have no expenditure, neither you have any loss. So why don’t you try this? Chant Hare Krsna.” This will be reasonable. Is it not? And if they actually chant Hare Krsna, then automatically the prayer and everything will be done. Umapati: But they still would not be allowed to do it in school. There’s a law against that, officially, in school. Prabhupada: That you can introduce. Umapati: We should try to fight that? Prabhupada: Yes. Now in the schools, now the senator have fixed up one date for prayer? Prajapati: Yes, one day. Prabhupada: Some 30th or 31st April. So if the government wants prayer, why they have prohibited in the schools? This is contradiction. Point out. This law was introduced due to inexperience. Now they are coming to experience that it has not helped us. Therefore they are introducing prayer. So why don’t you take it? Umapati: We should ride with that. We should try to get in on that. Prabhupada: Otherwise what is the use of introducing prayer again? They have experienced that this without prayer, things have failed. That’s a fact. You take this point. Umapati: Yes. The schools are falling apart. Delinquency and there’s lots of criminal activity amongst the children in school. And even the teachers are walking out of the classrooms because of the violence in the schools and the lack of communication with their students. Prabhupada: No, in India, in examination hall there is regularly police. Regularly. I have seen it. So what is the value of this education? There is regular police. Now there is no ordinary guard. Svarupa Damodara: In fact some people get killed. During the examination hall, people get killed. Prabhupada: Just see. Svarupa Damodara: Sometimes people want to copy, and those people who are… Prabhupada: Guarding. Svarupa Damodara: Yes. They catch them, and sometimes they get killed outside. Still in Calcutta. Prabhupada: Yes. There has been case. Yes. Umapati: In Calcutta that way too? Svarupa Damodara: Oh yes. I was in the examination hall, and in fact, people are very afraid to be caught there. But now I heard that the government of India is going to change the system of examination. Prabhupada: What is that? Svarupa Damodara: That they have introduced a grade system just like here in the United States, and then there will be open books, so that they will be not be afraid of copying things. Open book examination. Prabhupada: Oh, common sense. (pause) [break] …man’s aeroplane. Just see. Immediately he goes up. And man’s aeroplane, oh, you have to takes position, you have to go so many miles like this. Then you can… It is imitation. The aeroplane has also wings, but his wings is collapsed. But that wing you have to keep. Therefore you require so much space. Svarupa Damodara: Just like, Srila Prabhupada, a vulture. When the vulture wants to take off, he will run just like an aeroplane for a certain distance. They cannot just get up immediately. Vulture. Prabhupada: So you scientists, you are like vultures. (laughter) You have imitated vultures. Umapati: The symbol of the United States is an eagle, which is a bird of prey. Prabhupada: No, eagle… Our symbol is also Garuda, big eagle. Yes. Big eagle, Garuda. And you know Garuda is not vegetarian. You know that? Prajapati: Snakes. Prabhupada: Yes. He is not vegetarian. So if one becomes a sincere devotee like Garuda, you can allow him to become non-vegetarian. If he cannot give it up. [break] Nara-narayana: Garuda is from the jiva-tattva or he is an expansion? Prabhupada: No, he is jiva-tattva. Nitya-siddha. Nara-narayana: Does that mean that there is some soul who can come under influence of maya in the spiritual sky and some soul who cannot? Prabhupada: Yes, that potency is there always. Umapati: Is that the difference between jiva-tattva and Visnu-tattva. Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore Visnu-tattva is called acyuta, infallible. [break] Prajapati: …from politics to the world of theology. One of the most misunderstood passages in the western scriptures, things that are…, most speculation about, is the beginning of the Book of John, where it is said, “In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God.” And that Greek word is logos. And so many people have said so many different things about that passage. No one really understands it. Prabhupada: They cannot understand the Absolute. God and God’s word are not different. Otherwise, why we are after Bhagavad-gita? Because Bhagavad-gita is the words of God. So as good as God. Umapati: Absolute? Prabhupada: Absolute, yes. Svarupa Damodara: We also say that. We say that the beginning the sound vibration om was there. Om. Prabhupada: Yes. Sabdad anavrtti. In Vedanta-sutra, sabdad anavrtti. Sabdat. By vibration. Prajapati: But it goes on to say, “Then the word then came down to earth and dwelt with man as Jesus Christ.” They say Lord Jesus Christ was the word incarnate. Prabhupada: That’s all right. Umapati: Incarnate means flesh, having come down in flesh. Prabhupada: That’s all right. Prajapati: From our Krsna conscious standpoint, this means a person who is jagad-guru, who is fully living sastra, and therefore non- different from the word of God? Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Because he is following the words of God, therefore he is not different from the words of God. It is practical. Just like a lawyer is not different from the law. Therefore he is called lawyer. Prajapati: But like you were mentioning this morning in class, how they are cheaters. They simply say they are lawyers, but instead they are breaking the law. Prabhupada: Yes. Nowadays, big lawyer means who can tactfully break the law. That is good lawyer. They will find out some flaw in the law and win the case. A man has committed murder, everyone knows, and if a lawyer can save him, then he is a good lawyer. How to nullify the law, he is a good lawyer. Umapati: We find that our administration and our government is composed of about fifty or sixty per cent lawyers. Prabhupada: Like Nixon. Umapati: Yes. Pretty much so like Nixon. Prabhupada: What is the position of Nixon now? Umapati: He’s getting more popular. Prabhupada: How? Umapati: Well, he couldn’t get any less popular. So now nothing’s happened. So he is the only one available. So he is getting more popular. People forget. Prabhupada: Yes. Prajapati: They are all cheaters. So because he is a cheater, they feel he is one of them. Prabhupada: Yes. Umapati: That’s called representation. Prabhupada: Yes. People have become cheaters. Therefore their representative is also cheater. You can make vigorous propaganda that “This will not help without prayer, offering prayer to Lord. You shall stopped; it is not good. And prayer means you chant the name of God. So there is no loss on your part. If there is some gain, why don’t you try it?” It will be very nice, beneficial. Umapati: They have nothing more to lose. Prabhupada: “But if you chant, you will be gainer. So… And what is the harm? You chant and see the result.” Umapati: But they must follow the four regulative principles too. Prabhupada: You can advise. Even they do not follow, they will later on follow, by chanting. Yes. Nara-narayana: At our Sunday program, generally, the guests do not follow the four regulative principles, but when they come, they become very blissful. Prabhupada: But one thing. When you make your propaganda, you must have the facility for chanting Hare Krsna. Or you are simply going to speak? No chanting? Prajapati: No, we’ll always have chanting. We will not speak without first chanting. Prabhupada: Yes. Umapati: But still we have to talk to them. Prabhupada: No, you can talk. But first of all chanting. And request them to join the chanting. Umapati: We will probably become known as the Hare Krsna party, just like we became known as the Hare Krsna movement. (end)
with His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada
January 12, 1974, Los Angeles