with Svarupa Damodara
His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada
March 1, 1975, Atlanta
Prabhupada: Try to understand this, that life is always there, as God is there. So these living entities, part and parcel of God, they are also there. That God has got multi-energies, potencies. Out of that, three potencies have been taken as very important. Parasya saktir vividhaiva sruyate. God has multi-energy. Out of that, three energies have been taken as principal: material, spiritual, and marginal. The material energy is this material world. The spiritual world is the spiritual energy. And we living entities, we are also spiritual, but we are called marginal because we may live under the subjugation of material energy or spiritual energy. So the living entities, they are eternal. Their only position is marginal, sometimes manifested here, sometimes manifested there. So in the material world the living entities are already there. You haven’t got to create. That is foolishness. It is never created. Simply in the material world it becomes manifest in four ways. Some of them are coming like trees, plants. And some of them are coming from perspiration… not coming, being manifested through fermentation, perception. And some of them are being manifested through eggs. And some of them are being manifested through embryo. The living entity were already there. Their struggle is going on, and they become manifest in the material world in four sources. In the spiritual world there is no such… They are eternally existing. There is no question of manifestation. So this is the science of living entities. What do they know? Therefore I say they are rascals. They do not know anything, simply trying to create. What is the creation? It is already there. But they do not know what is this, and still, they are scientists, they are advanced education. All rascal. They do not know. Therefore through Bhagavad-gita we say they are rascals. Mudha. Now you tell these mudhas that “My dear sirs, you cannot create; neither it is created. You find out how they are coming out, what is their source, who is the brain behind all this nature. That you find out. That is knowledge. So if you struggle for this and try to find out the original source of everything, then some day you may come to this platform, vasudevah sarvam iti sa mahatma su-durlabhah [Bg. 7.19]. Then you understand that Krsna is the source of everything, and then your knowledge will be perfect.” This is the… Vasudevah sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19]. Whatever we see, that is, the source is Vasudeva. Do you think this nice flower has come out without any brain, this nonsense philosophy? The so-called scientist will put some bombastic word, “this, that…” What is that explanation? Nobody can understand. It will be understood by them only. They will put some language in such a way that it is to be understood by them. Unless they explain, nobody will understand. They say it is automatically being done, nature. That’s not the fact. Nature is an instrument. Just like this wonderful machine, computer. But still, there is operator. But they have no common sense even, that where is the machine that is working without any operator? Where is that machine within their experience? How they suggest that the nature is doing automatically? Nature is wonderful machine, but the operator is Krsna. That is real knowledge. Because the machine is working wonderfully, there is no operator? Where is that experience? Have you got any experience, Dr. Wolf, like that?
Dr. Wolf: No, sir, I don’t.
Prabhupada: Oh, we have got any experience? You have got any experience? Then, why do you say nonsense, this? You have no experience, and you say something nonsense, ludicrous. They say “nature.” What is the nature? Nature is a machine only. Just like the harmonium. It is also machine. But if one expert operator is there, it makes very melodious, oh, nice. So will the harmonium play automatically? And bring melodious sound? So they have no common sense even; still, they are scientist. That is our regret. They are less than common sense man. That you have to expose, that these people have not even common sense, and they are passing on as scientist. That you must protest because you are servant of God, you are servant of the scientist. Call them directly rascal. Let them defend that they are not rascal. He brought some scientist. I called him, “You are rascal, you are demon. You are everything,” (laughs) and he tolerated. That means internally he accepted that he is a rascal. (laughs) Actually they… They have no common sense even. So we are not scientist, but we speak from common sense. That’s all. Yesterday or day before yesterday, I was talking on common sense on law points, so Rupanuga said that “You are bigger than lawyer.” I do not know that I am bigger than lawyer, but I was speaking on common sense. The difficulty is they are misleading. So many people are being misled by the so-called politician and scientist and… But Gandhi says… He has written so many nonsense things. One thing is that he said, “I do not believe that there was anybody as Krsna living ever. Krsna is of my imagination.” These things he has written. And he is Mahatma Gandhi. Mahatma’s definition is there in the Bhagavad-gita, mahatmanas tu mam partha daivim prakrtim asritah [Bg. 9.13]. Mahatma means devotee, who have understood vasudevah sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19]. But these rascal politicians, they have become mahatma. For politics, they can do anything, lie like anybody, and so many things. There was a big writer in Bengal. So he is giving evidence in the court… That’s a comic. So he says, “Do you think I am editor? I am pleader? I am prostitute?” Means indirectly he is saying that they are prostitutes. As the prostitute can say anything, lies, for their profession, similarly, these people, the editor and the…, pleaders, they are like that. “Do you think I am prostitute? Do you think I am lawyer? Do you think I am editor, newspaper editor?” So take this formula from the sastras that a living entity is never created. These rascals are trying to create living entity and spending money and going to hold big, big conference. So where is the question of creation? They are already created. Why this common sense do not come in their brain? Why?
Svarupa Damodara: Because they are illusioned.
Rupanuga: Illusioned, illusioned.
Prabhupada: Oh, illusioned, yes.
Prabhupada: Yes. Mayayapahrta-jnana. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita. They are so-called educated, doctors, but actually they have no knowledge. Simply they are bluffing, cheating. Where is the question of creation? So many millions and trillions of living entities are there, and they are making conference, “How to create from chemicals?” Just see this childish proposal. And wasting time and misleading person, and wasting hard-earned money of the state. And big, big foundation supplying them money. And if you ask, “Give us some money for Krsna consciousness,” “No, no, we are not interested in religion. We are interested in science, and this is the science.” All fools and rascal, mudha. That is our test. Anyone who is not Krsna conscious, he is a mudha. Bas. We have got the test tube, this Bhagavad-gita, na mam duskrtino mudhah prapadyante naradhamah [Bg. 7.15]. So as soon as we see here is a man, if he has not surrendered to Krsna, “All right, you are mudha.” That’s all. We haven’t got to test him. Test tube is already there. So you tell these mudhas that “Why you are wasting so much time and money to find out how to manufacture life? Then what are these life? How they have come? That is not a problem, that without your creation of life the world will go to hell. It is already there.” What do they say? “Why they are trying to create life?” What is their answer? What they will get it? The things are already there. Suppose there are so many motorcars, and if I manufacture one motorcar, so is there any great credit for me? The motorcars are already there. When there was no car, motorcar, the first man who manufactured, he had some credit. Who manufactured? The Daimler or somebody else? So he had some credit, “Yes, you have done something, horseless carriage. People will get something convenience. That’s all right.” But when there are thousands and millions of motorcars and creating accident only, and still, if I manufacture motorcar, what is my credit? What is my credit?
Svarupa Damodara: Zero.
Prabhupada: Zero. And they are going to put this zero, and they are going to have some big conference. So many people will come and spend money unnecessarily.
Madhava: They want to make a better human being by making life themselves. They want to make it better.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is our proposal, that don’t waste time. You are living entities. There are so many living entities. Now try to understand what is your actual constitutional position so that you may become happy and peaceful. This research should be done. Why they are going to waste time in this way, money and time? You can write to the organizer, sponsor of this meeting, that “Why you are foolishly going to waste time like that?” You can say, at least, “My Guru Maharaja says like this.”
Dr. Wolf: Srila Prabhupada, I think if they’re trying to create life they want to claim authorship. They want to say, “We did it,” but they do not understand that they will…
Prabhupada: What do they want to claim by creating life?
Dr. Wolf: Authorship. Originators. They want to be…
Prabhupada: Origin is already there. How you can be originator? Already life is there. How you can be originator? That is your foolishness.
Rupanuga: They’re simply trying to disprove Krsna. “If I can do this,” they’re saying, “if I can create life, then there’s no need to postulate a God. I can be God.”
Prabhupada: That means demon.
Rupanuga: Yes, they want to be God.
Prabhupada: So how we can respect the demons? We cannot.
Rupanuga: No. We’ll not give them any credit.
Prabhupada: The other fools, they can give some respect, but we are not going to do that. We say, “You will never be able.” You can say. This rascal, we can give some knowledge, that “Your this attempt will be failure,” because we know life cannot be created. How he will create? We know the formula, na jayate. So how this rascal will be able to create? I am not a scientist, but on the strength of Bhagavad-gita’s assertion, na jayate na mriyate. “Neither it is created; neither it dies.” So if somebody wants to create, then at once we shall call him a fool. We have got test tube. Very boldly we shall say. Now let them prove that can he create. This is our position. So Krsna conscious person, he has got very strong position. He speaks just what Krsna speaks. That’s all, finished.
Rupanuga: They’re like you described yesterday, when the scorpion comes from the rice. They think that when some living entity becomes manifest that he’s being created. That’s because the material…
Prabhupada: That also he cannot do.
Prabhupada: How the scorpion is coming out of rice, that they do not know. Such a foolish person, he is scientist.
Rupanuga: They’re thinking because they are able by different methods like synthetics and through chemistry that they can produce…
Prabhupada: That is craftsmanship. That is not knowledge.
Rupanuga: But still, they are thinking because they can do, make the background a little…
Prabhupada: Just like if you paint a picture, rose, you are a painter, not that you know the knowledge. A painter is not a man of knowledge. Man of knowledge means he knows how things are being done. That is man of knowledge. Painter imitates some painting, that’s all. He may be a good painter, but a painter is never taken as man of knowledge. I think, therefore, two departments, art and science. So this knowledge, this technical knowledge… Suppose one man has created an aeroplane. That is an art; that is not knowledge.
Rupanuga: So if they create some synthetic, that is an art.
Prabhupada: That is an art.
Rupanuga: Simply copying what is there.
Prabhupada: Just like a good cook is a good chemist. He knows how to mix up the masalas and ghee and makes very tasteful thing. So you can call him a good cook. The chemistry is nothing but mixture of different chemicals. That’s all. There is oil. There is alkaline. You mix it very proportionately, and soap comes out, very useful.
Madhava: Prabhupada, how can we explain to the scientists how gross matter is being produced from subtle matter and ultimately from life, from consciousness. Like if a scientist were looking at the creation occurring…
Prabhupada: Every scientist knows that originally the sky, the sound, and from the sound, then, what is? Air? What is the process of creation from subtle to gross?
Rupanuga: First the ether produces sound.
Prabhupada: Yes. From sound there is air, from air there is fire; from fire there is water; from water there is earth. This is earth, water, air, fire. And the sound, transcendental sound… As it is said in the Bible, “Let there be creation.” And in the Vedas also, it is said, sa aiksata: “He glanced over.” That is to be found out, how from sound, from ether, sound is coming… I think that is already in the science. Is it not?
Svarupa Damodara: It’s not known, natural sciences.
Madhava: You gave one example of television.
Madhava: You gave one example of television as showing that gross form comes from the ether. The transmission of television…
Prabhupada: But that now, this television, yes, coming. Sound is coming, some ethereal vibration and so many things. That you have to see. But in the Vedic knowledge is already there.
Svarupa Damodara: The question that Madhava was raising that came up in the questions that all the forms of these living entities which… All the species, their forms, their gross forms…
Prabhupada: That is coming from mind.
Svarupa Damodara: Yes, whether that has come all of a sudden.
Prabhupada: No all of a sudden.
Svarupa Damodara: Or is it by gradual evolution from…
Prabhupada: Yes. Sada tad-bhava-bhavitah [Bg. 8.6]. As you are thinking always, so you are creating your next body.
Svarupa Damodara: That still is not the answer. What we want is, at the time of creation of the material world, when all the species, 8,400,000 species…
Svarupa Damodara: They are all simultaneously manifested, just at once?
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. But they are not manifested yet. Because it was like sleeping. When there is no creation and…, there is sleeping stage. Just like in the sleeping stage, even at the present moment, at night, the dog is sleeping, the bird is sleeping, the man is sleeping, the tiger is… Everyone is sleeping at night. But in the morning, as soon as they awake, they understand, “I am tiger,” “I am dog,” “I am man,” “I am this,” “I am that.” Everyone remembers that “I have to do this. I have to do that. I have to go there. I have to bring money from there.” All duties come immediately. So all these living creatures who are sleeping at night, but when there is morning, they again become the same. That is creation.
Rupanuga: But when Brahma creates, does he first of all create the aquatics, then the plants?
Rupanuga: No, everything is at once. There’s no gradual, it is all immediate.
Prabhupada: There is a process, from aquatics to this, this, this, this, but when there is creation, all of them come at once.
Rupanuga: So that process is transmigration of the soul.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes.
Rupanuga: That is evolution.
Prabhupada: So in the last creation, if somebody could not come to the human form of body, now again he will be able to come. Therefore the creation is there. Another chance is given.
Rupanuga: Yes. Otherwise there would be no chance.
Dr. Wolf: Srila Prabhupada, there is the idea that matter comes from life.
Prabhupada: Life, yes.
Dr. Wolf: I do not quite see how. I do not quite understand how matter can come from life.
Prabhupada: Just like a man, a mechanic, was sleeping, and as soon as he awakes, he again begins to manufacture motorcar. In the sleeping stage he was doing nothing. But awakened state, he begins his work. So therefore he is living being, and the motorcar comes from him, not that the motorcar was sleeping. He was sleeping, the living entity.
Dr. Wolf: Can one assume that matter is a kind of energy?
Prabhupada: Yes, matter is also energy of God.
Dr. Wolf: But which of the three types of energy does matter come from?
Prabhupada: Matter, material.
Dr. Wolf: The material energy.
Prabhupada: Yes. In the material world there is question of matter and spirit. In the spiritual world simply everything is spiritual.
Dr. Wolf: Can we assume that energy itself, all three types of energy, are related to life?
Dr. Wolf: They emanate from life.
Prabhupada: From Krsna. Krsna says, aham sarvasya prabhavah. Find out this verse. Aham sarvasya. Sarvasya means both matter and spirit. (Prabhupada gets up and begins to leave room)
Rupanuga: We had some… Can we get you something, Srila Prabhupada? Do you want something?
Prabhupada: No, I am going for…
aham sarvasya prabhavo mattah sarvam pravartate iti matva bhajante mam budha bhava-samanvitah [Bg. 10.8]
Rupanuga: Now we have some questions we have to ask Srila Prabhupada. Because we’re writing a book, we have some specific questions. We have to have time to get these questions in. Did you write them down, Svarupa Damodara Prabhu? (some discussion amongst men in room) [break]
Satsvarupa: “The wise who know this perfectly engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts.”
Prabhupada: That’s it. He has found out the original source. There is no conference needed.
Rupanuga: This other question. During the day of Brahma at the end of every Manu there’s a partial devastation of the planets up to earth and celestial, right? Now, at that time there’s like a flood, and the animals that are in their particular stage of transmigration of the living entities, their bodies are all killed. Now, at that time, when the end of that period is over, how are the bodies manifest? This is a question Richard Prabhu was asking.
Prabhupada: There is no body. They are reserved in the Visnu’s body. And again, when there is creation, they come out. And therefore matter comes from the spirit. Matter is there, creation, matter. So take advantage of the matter. Just like the cloth is there. You cut it according (to) your body, and there is a coat. The spiritual body is already there. Now the matter is there. Now, from matter, you take. You make your body like a dog, like a ant, like a fish, like a tree, like this.
Rupanuga: So all the different species are created again simultaneously.
Prabhupada: That is… He died with that mentality. It is there. Just like we go to sleep, but all your mental activities are reserved. In the morning again you begin.
Madhava: Prabhupada, you say that the living entity, he is thinking about a particular kind of body and a particular activity…
Prabhupada: Not particular body—particular desire. And according to the desire, Krsna is giving him facility through the material machine to give him a particular type of body. Just like one man is thinking of eating anything nonsense. So Krsna says that “You give him this body of hog. He can eat even stool.” That’s all. You want to be naked, nudie? So Krsna gives him, “So he is very much anxious to become nudie. Make him a tree. Stand up for five thousand years naked.” This is going on.
Madhava: If I desire…
Prabhupada: Whatever you desire.
Madhava: If I desire something to appear here now…
Prabhupada: Yes, you will remain here as insect.
Madhava: No, if I desire a plate of prasadam to appear here…
Prabhupada: Then you will go to Vaikuntha. (laughter)
Madhava: How do I do it by just desiring? How is it done?
Prabhupada: By desire you are creating everything. Why these material varieties? You desire. In the spiritual world also, varieties. You desire. You want to serve Krsna as His friend, you want to serve Krsna as His lover, you want to serve Krsna as His father, as His servant, or you want to serve Krsna by supplying fruits and flowers, or river Yamuna. Everything, whatever you like, Krsna will give you opportunity, in this material and the spiritual world.
Svarupa Damodara: After complete annihilation and then, when the creation starts again…
Prabhupada: There is no question of annihilation.
Svarupa Damodara: I mean the material universe.
Prabhupada: Yes, it is manifest, not manifest. Not annihilation. The energy is there. Just like sometimes I become angry, and sometime I am peaceful. But that means anger is annihilated. Anger is there. It may be manifest at any time. There is no question of annihilation. You say like that because actually it is vyakta, avyakta: manifest and nonmanifest.
Rupanuga: We don’t see it, so we say it’s not manifest.
Svarupa Damodara: So during this time there are still living entities which are not manifested.
Prabhupada: Living are already there, but his desires are manifest or nonmanifest.
Svarupa Damodara: Yes, the living entities are there, but they stop manifesting the different bodies.
Prabhupada: That is another thing, that you cannot see him without body. That is your defect. There are so many living entities in the air. You cannot see them. That is your defect. Therefore, Vedanta— sastra-caksusa: “You should see through the sastra, not with your so-called eyes.”
Rupanuga: Sariram puruso veda.(?)
Prabhupada: Yes. Knowledge is through sastra, authority, not by our senses. That is not knowledge.
Svarupa Damodara: So that explains the… Sometimes some scientists ask that “You are very sure, so sure about the 8,400,000 species.”
Svarupa Damodara: They ask, “How are you so much sure about 8,400,000 species?”
Prabhupada: Because we have heard from authority. As you are asking assurance from me, so I give you the knowledge from where I have heard. You want to hear from me. I have heard from authority. That’s all. What is the difficulty? Why you are asking me? You want to hear from me. So I have also heard from authority. This is the statement. You take it.
Svarupa Damodara: So when… They say that there are some plants that can grow from just branches… We stick the branch in the soil. Then it just grows to another plant.
Prabhupada: The same thing. The living entity is there, but he is manifested in such a way. The same explanation. Just like there are many living entities within my body, and when this body is stopped, decomposed, they come out in different forms.
Svarupa Damodara: Are these living entities constant? They don’t change any.
Prabhupada: Yes, nitya, nitya. Nityah sasvato ’yam na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg. 2.20] Why don’t you see these references? It is never created. It is ever-existing, eternal. Only it appears to be temporary on account of accepting different material bodies. Therefore, panditah sama-darsinah [Bg. 5.18]. One who knows, he knows that he has changed his body, the same person. Just like father, mother knows. When a son becomes very stout and strong, the mother sees that same child. Others may be bewildered. One who has seen the child very long ago, now he has become robust build. He cannot say. And the mother says, “He is my child, that child.” So panditah sama-darsinah [Bg. 5.18].
Satsvarupa: “For the soul there is never birth nor death, nor, having once been, does he ever cease to be. He is unborn, eternal, ever- existing, undying and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain.”
Prabhupada: That’s all. So where is the question of creation? But because we have got these material eyes, we want to see everything through this material manifestation. We are seeing that he is dead, he is alive, he is born, he is this, that…
Svarupa Damodara: But that is the defect of the scientists. They only see the body.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is their defect. Therefore asses, go-kharah. That is defined. Anyone who takes the body as the self, he is a go-kharah, animal. And that is our protest, that “You are animal; you are passing as very learned scholar, scientist.” That we want to protest. We want to expose them, that they are cheating people. They have no perfect knowledge; still, they are passing as scientist and big men and… That is our protest.
Madhava: Can we say that the living entity is there, and that he is the one that makes the molecules and the atoms come together to form a body just like the scientists give explanation? No? We can’t?
Prabhupada: No. Because the living entity is there for the formation of his body, so many things are going on, action and reaction of the matter. That’s all. That is depending on his desires. It is so subtle thing. He is desiring, and action, reaction is going on. And as soon as the living entity is not there, these action and reaction will stop. So they are trying to find out the missing thing. That missing thing is the living entity. That they do not know, foolishly. Just like a motorcar is running very nicely, and as soon as the driver goes away it stops. The machine is there, the everything is there, but this rascal mechanic, he comes, “Something is missing.” And why something missing? But he does not know the missing part is the driver. He is finding out in the motorcar what is missing. The motorcar, everything is there. The hand is there, leg is there, heart is there, the intestines are there, everything is there. So they cannot explain. They say, “Now the blood has become white.” Then make it red. Where is the difficulty? So they do not know what is missing; neither he’ll take, I mean to say, learned instruction. That is their defect. Real thing is the driver is missing, but that they will not accept. They are so foolish, they are thinking that motorcar is running automatically.
Rupanuga: Like a child.
Prabhupada: Like a child, yes. As the child will say, “Oh, motorcar is going on.”
Sadaputa: Srila Prabhupada, would it be possible for them to make a body and have a living entity enter into it?
Prabhupada: Yes, there is yogic principle. They can enter into a young body and act as young man.
Sadaputa: So a scientist then could claim he created life. He could… The way they talk, if he made a cell…
Prabhupada: First of all let them, these foolish rascals, let them understand what is the point who is missing. Then they will replace. They have no knowledge what is missing. They are so fool.
Dr. Wolf: Srila Prabhupada, they would not create. They would only imitate.
Prabhupada: That is not… It is never created. That is their missing point, that life is never created and they are trying to create.
Madhava: Their theory may be right about how the body forms, but they’re missing the soul?
Prabhupada: Body forms… As soon as there is life, body will form by nature’s arrangement.
Madhava: May their theory be right? Like they say they come from amino acids and so many things. But…
Prabhupada: That may be or may not be. Who cares for them? It is being already done.
Rupanuga: They’re simply describing it.
Prabhupada: That is also… Because they have no knowledge, how they can describe?
Svarupa Damodara: We’re explaining that, just like Srila Prabhupada’s example that the driver in the car. So inside the… We also say that “Yes, molecules are the ingredients to build the material bodies. But this does not mean that molecules are the living entities.”
Prabhupada: That’s it.
Svarupa Damodara: There is a driver necessary.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is the first instruction of Krsna. Dehino ’smin yatha dehe kaumara… [Bg. 2.13]. Dehinah. There is a living entity, driver, within this body. That is the first instruction. Unless one understands this simple thing, he is an ass. There is no knowledge. Because everything is based on something fictitious. This is the first thing one has to learn, the scientists, that there is the driver which is missing. Or the driver is moving this body. And if the driver is educated, then he can move this body to Krsna, back to home, back to Godhead. Then he becomes perfect. So we are educating the driver. We are not painting the tin car. This is Krsna consciousness movement.
Madhava: Does the scientist actually observe something external to his mind or does he only observe…
Madhava: Only in his mind.
Prabhupada: That’s all. Just like you cannot see actually what is beyond the wall, and there is some sound. You can simply speculate, “This sound is due to this. This sound is due to this. This sound is due to this,” but you have no clear knowledge. This is called speculation. But if a man behind the wall says, this sound is… (end)