Morning Walk Conversation Paramahamsa: …the history of Sunday, Monday, Tuesday? Prabhupada: Why not Monday first? Amogha: Well, the sun… Devotee (1): God created the earth, in the Bible. God started on a Monday. He created the earth. It says in the Bible in the Old Testament that it took Him seven days, or six days, and on the seventh day He rested. But still there is some dispute whether He started on a Sunday or a Monday. So the Jewish, the Hebrews, they hold the Sabbath on a Saturday, and the Christians and the Catholics they have the Sabbath on the Sunday. But on the seventh day God rested after creating the heavens and the earths. Srutakirti: It was always very bad to engage in any type of work on the Sabbath day. It was used only to glorify the Lord. Paramahamsa: For fishing. Amogha: Not any more. Now the post office is closed on Saturday and open all day on Sunday in Perth. Prabhupada: They have changed? Amogha: Yes. They are open on the Sabbath. Prabhupada: My point is: if the moon is the first planet nearer, why they did not start Monday? If the sun is after, then Sunday. This is the proof that first sun, then moon, not that first moon and then sun. Hm? That is the description in the Bhagavatam. One after another, one after another. Sixteen thousand, sixteen hundred thousand miles apart. First of all sun, then moon, then, what is called? Mars. You have seen it. Amogha: Mars is above the moon? Srutakirti: But the scientists wouldn’t even agree that the sun is the first created thing. Prabhupada: Who is accepting them as scientists? You can accept them. Why Sunday first? Wherefrom they have gotten? Srutakirti: That was gotten from Greek mythology. Prabhupada: Then Greek, where they got it? Devotee (1): Some of the days are named after different demigods. Wednesday is named after a god named Woden. Prabhupada: Where they got these demigods? Srutakirti: From Greek mythology. Prabhupada: Greek mythology, that’s all right. But where they got? Paramahamsa: Well, they say they made it up. Amogha: But all knowledge comes from the Vedas. Prabhupada: Yes. Greek history is about three thousand years. [break] …During the time of Maharaja Pariksit’s grandson. Maharaja Pariksit was the grandson of Yudhisthira, and Yudhisthira ruled over five thousand years ago. So the Yayati… Maharaja Yudhisthira’s grandson is Pariksit. His son is Janamejaya. And his son is Yayati. And his son started Greek and Roman Empire. So therefore the Greek history is not more than three thousand years. Maharaja Yayati banished his two sons to the European quarters. Mleccha-yavana. Later on they became yavana, from Vedic culture deviated. This is the history. Amogha: He sent them there for conquering? Prabhupada: Huh? No. He gave him, that “You take that place.” Amogha: Oh. “This is your kingdom.” Prabhupada: Yes. Every, all world was emperor, the Maharaja Yudhisthira and the family. Sa-sagara. Sa-sagara means “including all the oceans.” That means the whole world. There was one flag only during the time of Maharaja Pariksit. And he first saw the cow- killing maybe in Africa or in Arabia. One black man was trying to kill a cow, and Maharaja Pariksit was on tour, and immediately he punished him. That is Kali. The black man means Africa. Or where other place, black men? Paramahamsa: Some of the, there are some natives in Asia also, southeast Asia, that are black. Prabhupada: Arabia? No. Arabians are not black. Paramahamsa: Not… Generally they’re not so black. Indonesians are black. Prabhupada: No. Srutakirti: Africa is about the only place other than some islands. Prabhupada: Yes. Africa is black. Amogha: Aborigines here also. Paramahamsa: They have black natives here also, Australia. Prabhupada: They are all descendant of the same. Amogha: Did the Greek civilization follow the Vedic culture? Prabhupada: Oh, yes. They were worshipping demigods from the Vedas. Paramahamsa: But they didn’t have a very high standard. Prabhupada: These, these Vedic mantra, there is mention of so many demigods, how they were born. You do not know the meaning. Paramahamsa: No, we are just chanting. Prabhupada: How, one after another, how one is born out of the… That is… How the brahmanas were there, ksatriyas were there— everything in Vedic… These Vedic mantra means the history of human society. And the origin is God, Krsna, Narayana. There are other mantras wherein it is stated, eko narayana asit. “Only Narayana was there.” Neither Lord Siva nor Brahma. Later on, they came. When he first cites the mantra, vande maha-purusa te caranaravindam, siva-virinci-nutam. Siva means Lord Siva, and virinci means Brahma. All of them offer respect to Narayana. Indian astrology was taken by the Arabians first. The one, two, three, four, five, six, these figures were taken from India, up to nine, then zero. Then you make all mathematical, arithmetical calculation. Amogha: The Arabic numerals came from India? Prabhupada: Yes. First of all they took the one, two, three, four, five, six, seven… Srutakirti: The Romans had a very complicated system. Prabhupada: (chuckles) If you write 1975 it will become so big. (laughter) Srutakirti: Yeah. Some twenty letters. Prabhupada: This “Sunday, Monday,” means first sun, then moon. Where they are going? They are going to hell, not in the moon. This Vedic description is right. Because first study, Sunday… That, we offer gayatri to the sun. So the moon is after the sun—this is the proof, first Sunday, then Monday. So if their calculation is 93,000,000 miles from here, and moon is (sic:) one million, six thousand still farther, then where they are going? If they simply follow strictly this moon expedition and they admit they have not gone, then the whole civilization will change. All wrong conclusion. But they will have to admit now. Now they are serious, and they will have to say that they’ve never gone to the moon. And they will have to continue this. Otherwise they will be farce before the world. They will have to continue it. Now they are in such a position. Paramahamsa: They can’t just stop and say, “OK, now we…” Prabhupada: If they stop, then they are failure. Paramahamsa: Yeah. And then everyone will complain, “Oh, you wasted billions of dollars.” Prabhupada: And if they go, then they will have the right information. But they will never be able to go. Devotee (1): Just like Ravana could not reach the heavenly planets just by building the staircase. Prabhupada: That was his only demonic proposal, that “We make staircase.” He said that “Why you are undergoing so much austerities to go to the heavenly planets? I shall make a staircase. You will go.” Amogha: How high did he make it? Prabhupada: He never attempted. He simply bluffed, that’s all. So demons’ proposals are like that. Therefore it is a common say in, hearsay in the, in India, that ravane sarge sini(?): “The proposal is just like Ravana proposed to make a staircase to the heavenly planets.” He was also very much advanced materially, very prosperous materially. Gold was very common thing. He brought gold from Brazil through the subway. His brother was king there, in southern America. Amogha: Kumbhakarna? Prabhupada: No, Mahiravana. Mahi, mahi means the earth. He used to go through the subway, through the earth. So other side there was another Ravana. That is Mahiravana. Devotee (1): He built the subway? Prabhupada: Yes. The subway is still there, Brazil. Somebody said? Paramahamsa: Well, they found some parts of a subway there, some big tunnel. But they don’t know where it goes, though. Prabhupada: Yes, yes. That is from Ceylon to Brazil, subway. And Ravana’s civilization, Ramacandra’s fight, some millions of years ago. That is in the Treta-yuga. The duration of Kali-yuga is about, say, four lakhs of years. And Dvapara-yuga, eight lakhs of years. And then Treta-yuga, twelve lakhs of years. Paramahamsa: About two millions years ago, Treta-yuga. Prabhupada: Yes. No, why? Twenty lakhs, ah, two million, yes. Two millions of years ago the Ravana’s civilization was there, and he was so prosperous. He had airplane. The zeplin, zeplin? Amogha: Jet plane? Prabhupada: Not jet, zeplin. Amogha: Oh, with the air and gas inside. Prabhupada: Yes. His son’s name was Meghaduta. He was flying above the cloud. Therefore his name was Megha. Megha means cloud. They were so much advanced in civilization. Paramahamsa: What kind of civilization was in South America at that time? Prabhupada: The same like. Therefore these Mexicans, South American, they resemble therefore almost Indian body. Amogha: They also eat food… They eat a food similar to the capati. Prabhupada: Yes. Amogha: Tortillas. Prabhupada: Capati, in Middle East also they eat. Devotee (1): Yes, in Lebanon. Paramahamsa: In Tehran we saw those big capatis. Prabhupada: Yes. Paramahamsa: Six feet long. Prabhupada: Yes, so big. One capati is sufficient for the whole family. They are sold in market, purchased. Srutakirti: Very cheaply. Paramahamsa: Only three or four cents apiece. Prabhupada: Accha? Paramahamsa: Yeah. Prabhupada: They don’t make much profit. That is the oriental culture. They make little profit; they are satisfied. Still in India you will find many hotel, very cheap, very cheap. Especially Mohammedan hotels. Still, by paying eight annas, you can get full meal. Devotee (1): When Ravana was on the earth, was the whole earth populated, like Brazil and also the other parts of the world? Prabhupada: Yes. Everywhere population. This is a new theory of the rascals that there was no civilization before three thousand years. This is wrong theory. Everything was there. Devotee (1): So when Maharaja Yayati banished his sons to those kingdoms, they were already populated there. Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Paramahamsa: They seem to be pretty much ksatriya races. Prabhupada: And during Kuruksetra fight, all different kings joined, either to this party or that party. Amogha: Oh, from all over the world. Prabhupada: It was first-grade world war, Kuruksetra. There is the one king, Saibya, he came from Sibiya. Where is Sibiya? Amogha: Siberia? Prabhupada: Sibiya. Amogha: Oh, Sibiya? That’s Africa. Prabhupada: No, maybe there. There were… All the kings of the world, they joined, either this party or that party. Friends, friendly countries, they joined. Just like Krsna. He personally joined Arjuna, but He gave His soldiers to Duryodhana. It was family war. So the friends divided, “I will join you.” It was sporting. For the ksatriya fighting is sporting. They have football match. They did not take it as enmities. Just in the evening they are friends. This party goes to that party, that party goes to… It is a decision, who will be king, that’s all. Test of strength. Actually it was not enmity. “Let us fight, and who is strong he will be king, that’s all.” Devotee (1): And the losers will go to the heavenly planets. Prabhupada: Yes. Anyone who dies in such fight, he goes to heavenly planet. Devotee (1): So they were not afraid of dying. Prabhupada: No, why? They knew. Na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg. 2.20] “I am not going to die after the annihilation of this body.” It was a common understanding. Not that such a man, big man, director, he says, “No, no, I don’t believe in the soul.” (chuckles) Therefore I said the fourth-class man. In India still, even a common man, uneducated farmer, he believes. He believes. He believes in God. He believes in transmigration. He believes in his karma. These things which will take thousands of years to be learned by the Westerners, even the common man knows still. Devotee (1): And all Krsna’s soldiers were killed? Prabhupada: Yes. Amogha: So Krsna fought against His own soldiers also. Prabhupada: Krsna did not fight. Amogha: Oh, that’s right. Prabhupada: He did not. Amogha: But He led the fight. Prabhupada: He was chariot driver at the risk of being killed. The other party may kill the chariot driver to stop the progress of the enemy. They kill. They kill the horses, they kill the charioteer, then the person. So Krsna took the risk of being killed. Bhisma attacked Him. He pierced His body with arrows. Devotee (1): I think the tribes in South America, the Aztecs, they were also worshipers of the sun-god. Prabhupada: Yes. Devotee (1): They had very much gold. And the Spanish, they came and plundered the gold. Prabhupada: The aborigines here, they have got any religion? Devotee (1): Where? Prabhupada: Here in Australia. Devotee (1): Well, they mostly worship ghosts and spirits, I think. Trees. Prabhupada: Bhutejya. Devotee (1): Yes. Prabhupada: So there is religion. Yanti bhutani bhutejya. What is this “UJV”? Amogha: That is the license plate. Prabhupada: That’s all right. What is the… Generally, the city’s name are there. Devotee (1): Well, it usually has a U before the initials. I don’t know why. Amogha: Generally, they make them all—each one is a little bit different. Devotee (1): Was Mahiravana also a demon? Prabhupada: Yes. Devotee (1): What happened to him? Prabhupada: He was killed by Ramacandra. Amogha: He was called by his brother, wasn’t he…? Prabhupada: Yes. Amogha: …to Ceylon in the battle? Prabhupada: No, he made a plan to kill Ramacandra. Amogha: Ramacandra made a plan? Prabhupada: No, Mahiravana. And in that plan he was killed. [break] That is Indo-European civilization. The kings came from India, and he developed. Therefore it is called Indo-European civilization. Paramahamsa: The scientists and the archaeologists are very amazed to find the structures, the buildings that they had in their civilization. They can’t understand how they were built, such huge pillars and gigantic stones. They don’t know how they were put into place. Prabhupada: Similarly, the Jagannatha temple is also like that. They suggest that they manufacture, and then they surround with sand, then further manufacture. And when it is complete the sand is taken away. Otherwise how it is put into…? The sand is stacked just like this. The temple is being manufactured, and the sand is thrown all side, and when it is finished, the sand is taken away. Devotee (1): The temple is manufactured in the sand? Prabhupada: No, as usual. Just like they dig well. They dig well. They begin immediately, and then you dig the earth, and the structure goes down. Then again, then again, like that. They were experts, they were experts, to construct… Labor is cheap. That time, practically there was no labor cost. At the present moment, on account of factories, the labor cost has increased. Otherwise the laborers, they were, they have no sufficient employment. So two annas, four annas. I was paying labor, four annas, say, in 1930s. Four annas. In Allahabad I was paying four annas. He would work whole day. In Bombay eight annas. Devotee (1): They also have the big structures in Egypt, the pyramids. Prabhupada: Yes. Amogha: Perhaps they used sand also. Prabhupada: Yes. Paramahamsa: The Greeks say that they built their buildings… They hired some very big men called cyclopses, big giants. And they came and built all the buildings. Prabhupada: Yes. And such stories are in Mahabharata also. The demons were engaged, giants and demons, for construction. Yes. And they were very good artist, how to do it. Now we employ the first-class men, so-called first-class engineering, but they were meant for the demons and giants. Yes. Paramahamsa: Well, that explains how they built such fantastic temples and palaces. Prabhupada: Yes. Amogha: Some people say, “Why don’t we see any giants any more today?” Prabhupada: Yes. In the Africa, there were many giants, very high, very strong. Devotee (1):. Where is that? Paramahamsa: In Africa some of the natives, very big, eight feet tall. Prabhupada: Very tall. Devotee (1): In South America also, they used to have the Amazons, a big race. Paramahamsa: Didn’t one demon construct a big parliament house for Krsna? That demon Maya? For King Yudhisthira? Prabhupada: Umm. Amogha: Asta-siddhi dasa, when he came back from Fiji he told us a story that the local people say that Kaliya snake, after he ran away, he lives in Fiji in a big lake. Devotee (1): On top of a mountain. Prabhupada: Yes, he was driven away from Vrndavana. (pause) They are all going to the downtown? Devotee (1): Yes. To the factory areas also, in Freemantle. Prabhupada: Oh. Where is the factory area? Devotee (1): About ten miles down the coast. They have very big factories, very bad pollution. Big factories down south, in one place called Freemantle. It’s a little way down. Prabhupada: Three miles? Devotee (1): Ten. Prabhupada: Ten miles. How long it will take to go and come? Amogha: To the factory? Prabhupada: No, that area. Devotee (1): It takes about one hour to go down there. Three quarters of an hour. Prabhupada: One hour? For ten miles? Devotee (1): It’s a lot of traffic. Prabhupada: Oh. What factories they have got? Devotee (1): Big, big steel factories. Prabhupada: Steel factory. Devotee (1): Yes. Also aluminium factories. Prabhupada: Aluminium. And still, there is problem. That man said? Amogha: Yes. He said the bauxite mineral, the multinational or international companies are exploiting, interested in exploiting the bauxite minerals to make much aluminium. Prabhupada: Now aluminium is in great demand for manufacturing airplane. They are all manufactured from aluminium. (someone shouts in distance) What does he say? Amogha: I think he was barking. Paramahamsa: Just a raksasa. Amogha: When we walk in the city in Perth the young people, many people, they say, “Hare Krsna.” They say, “Oh, there is Hare Krsna.” Prabhupada: There was a newspaper clipping in the Bhagavad-gita. I saw. Devotee (1): Oh, yes, that is mine. It was about three years ago, three or four years ago. They put one article. Amogha was supposed to come over from Sydney. I was not even a devotee then, but still, they put this article that there were three devotees in Perth chanting Hare Krsna. Amogha: That was because I was going to Indonesia and I stopped here on the way. Devotee (1): Many people in Perth, they have the books. About one and a half years ago we were over here and we were distributing the big Krsna books and the Bhagavad-gita, many books. Prabhupada: So you are not distributing now? Devotee (1): Yes, we are still distributing, only around Christmas in Perth. During the rest of the time of the year, it is not very crowded. Amogha: When we came over here, we stayed in a hotel before we found the house about ten days ago. And when we came to the motel, the lady said, “Oh, someone has left this book here.” And she gave us a Srimad-Bhagavatam. (pause) Yesterday the United States attacked and sank three Cambodian boats. They are fighting because the Cambodian Communists, the new government, captured one United States freighter. So now they are beginning to try to take it back. (pause) The bus is empty again. Prabhupada: A very good bus. Paramahamsa: Practically every one of these cars only has one person in it. Devotee (1): So actually, they have not advanced technologically from the civilizations of Ravana’s time? Prabhupada: That is not civilization. Technological advancement is not civilization. It is the advancement of ugra knowledge. Real civilization is to advance in Brahman knowledge. If there are brahmanas, that is advancement. This is not advancement because they do not know what is advancement. They have no knowledge that “I have to die, and I have to accept another body after death.” They do not know it. So long this body is there, they are trying to have very comfortable position. But they do not know that after this body, he has to accept another body. So how this technology will help him? If, in this life, by technological advancement you live very comfortably, and next life you become a dog, then where is the advancement? That they do not know. Suppose… We have got visa for two weeks? Paramahamsa: Three weeks. Prabhupada: Three weeks. Now, if in Perth I begin one big skyscraper building and then after three weeks I am kicked out, then is that very good intelligence? I know that I shall remain here for three weeks, and if I begin one skyscraper building, and then, during the time of constructing or, say, after the construction is finished, I am kicked out, then where is that intelligence? Just like Napoleon. He wanted to construct that arch. You have not seen. Paramahamsa: Yes, I have seen. Prabhupada: But he could not finish it. So this is his intelligence. Such a big man, Napoleon, that is his intelligence. And what to speak of others. Everyone knows that “I will have to die,” and when death will come, nobody knows. At any moment it may come. So he will not be able to enjoy what he is doing, but still, he is doing. And his real business is forgotten. His real business is to stop his birth and death process and go back to home, back to Godhead. That is his real business. He does not know the real… Therefore they are called mudhas. Na mam duskrtino mudhah [Bg. 7.15]. So it is a civilization of the mudhas, fourth-class men. Devotee (1): Should the devotees think that “Any moment, I can die”? Prabhupada: Yes. That is a fact. Why they will think? It is a fact. There is English proverb, “There is many dangers between the cups and the lips.” You are going to drink tea. The distance is: here is cup and here is lip. There may be many dangers. So suppose in drinking tea there is some choking within the throat, and coughing, you may die immediately. You are so much under the control of nature. Little mistake will cause your death, little mistake. And conditioned life means we commit mistake, we are illusioned, we cheat, and our knowledge is imperfect. This is conditioned life. Amogha: I telephoned that geographer yesterday to talk to him, and he said that “What Swamiji said was true, but how can…?” He said, “It will be very difficult to apply because most people, they are not interested.” But he says it was very… He could understand that was true, what you were saying. He may also come again to talk more. Prabhupada: Yes, let him come. Let him come. People may take or not take, but he is inquisitive gentleman. Let him understand. People… We are preaching. Who is taking? Mass of people, they are not taking it. But still, we are doing that. That is our duty. People may take or not take, but a God’s servant must speak the truth. Just like Jesus Christ. He was crucified. Nobody took his words. But he did it. If people would have accepted his philosophy, then why he was crucified by the judges? It was done by the judges, Roman judges. So this is the position of the world. Socrates was killed because he said that there is soul. This is the defect of Western civilization. They want vox populi. What is that vox populi? Huh? Devotee (1): Bauxite? Prabhupada: Vox populi. You know this word? Srutakirti: Yeah, Latin. Prabhupada: Latin, yes. People’s vote. The people may be asses, but still, their votes will be taken, the vox populi. The fourth-class, fifth-class men, and they are giving vote. And the mistake is detected. Just like this Nixon was voted and the mistake was detected. But still, they follow the same process, vox populi. What is the value of the votes of the fourth-class, fifth-class men? Better one intelligent man, if he knows things, if he is liberated, if he says, “This is right,” that should be taken. That is Vedic civilization. We are accepting Krsna. We are not accepting the vox populi. One person, the Supreme, that’s all. This is our process. We don’t accept vox populi. All these Vedic literature are accepted not on the people’s vote, but who is presenting? Vyasadeva is presenting, Krsna is presenting. Parasara Muni is presenting. Therefore they are accepted. You cannot expect the mass of people very intelligent. That is not possible. So what is the value of their votes if they are not intelligent? But in the Western countries this is the disease, vox populi. Socrates said there is soul, and he was killed because vox populi was against. Christ was killed because vox populi was against. This is the defect of the Western civilization. During the lifetime of Christ, nobody accepted. When he was killed, or crucified, then the other saintly persons, they gave their experience, what they learned from Jesus Christ. Christ could not give any words. Some sporadic words were there, and the Bible was made on that basis. Actually, the Bible is not the word, directly words of Christ. Amogha: That must be why it says… It says, “The Gospel according to John,” “The Gospel according to Mark.” Prabhupada: Ah, yes. Devotee (1): Even his disciples denounced him when they were going to crucify him. They said, “Oh, I do not know Jesus.” Prabhupada: [break] …they are after zeros. Caitanya Mahaprabhu sa…, sunyayitam jagat sarvam govinda-virahena me. Sunyayitam means zero. [break] Advancement of civilization is zero. If you add many thousands of zero, does the value increases? Amogha: No. Prabhupada: It remains zero. Amogha: Big zero. Prabhupada: There must be one. Then it will increase the value. That one, Krsna consciousness, will make this material civilization hundred times important. And without Krsna consciousness, they are all zeros. [break] …next life, supposing hypothetically I am going to be a dog, then what is this civilization? But that you cannot say, “No, I am not going to be dog,” because you do not know. You are under the, completely under the grip of material nature. And there are cats and dogs. How you can guarantee that you are not going to be a dog? Krsna says, dehantara-praptih. You will get another body. So how you can say that “No, I am not going to be a dog”? You cannot say; you are not independent. You cannot make your choice. Karmana daiva-netrena. By your work, it will be decided by higher authorities. Then how you can say, “No, no, I am not… There is no life, there is no…” It is all nonsense. Therefore without this knowledge, all this material opulence, it is all zero. It may be some fact for fifty or sixty years, but the world is not for fifty or sixty years, for millions and millions of years. (end)
with His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada
May 16, 1975, Perth