Morning Walk Conversation Madhudvisa: …cannot become a medical practitioner by simply reading the books. He must study under a medical practitioner. So in the case of your books, is it possible to become a devotee without actually having personal association with you? Just by reading your books? Prabhupada: No, it is not that you have to associate with the author. But one who knows, if you cannot understand you have to take lesson from him. Not necessarily that you have to contact with the author always. Devotee: Just like the textbooks are not written by the teachers; they’re written by other professors. Devotee: Usually you don’t even meet the author. Prabhupada: Simply one who knows the subject matter, he can explain. Madhudvisa: But can your, would your purports, would that serve as explanation besides… Prabhupada: No, no, anyone who knows the subject matter, he will be able to explain. Not necessarily the author is required to be present there. [break] …to study from a medical man, I never said you have to study from the author. Or one who understood the author’s purpose. Just like we are explaining Bhagavad-gita as it is. Not that one has to learn directly from Krsna. One who has understood Krsna, from him. That is parampara system. Madhudvisa: Also in the lecture last night, Srila Prabhupada, you were saying that after the water subsides, then the trees come out, and then the insects, then the birds. That would indicate that the creation takes place in stages? Prabhupada: Hmm? Madhudvisa: It would indicate that the creation of this universe takes place in stages, over quite a long period of time, and this is what the scientists also claim. Darwin’s theory is similar to that, that first there was water, then vegetation came up, and then gradually, gradually, each and every species evolved, like that. So is there some correlation between those? Prabhupada: But the varieties of creation, not that everything is coming like that. Just like Brahma was first created, the first intelligent man. So although there was water, he was above water. He was on the lotus flower, which is not in the water. So that is also creation. So suppose this part is not covered by water—you see grass. But where there is lake there is no grass. So both things are there. Somewhere where there is water, unless the water is dried up, there is no grass. But somewhere you will find, immediately, grass. But there is no water. Or above water. So far the material elements are concerned, that is this stage. But the material elementary presentation, in different places, different way. Madhudvisa: From the Bhagavatam we understand, though, that Brahma first created human species of life. Prabhupada: Yes, from him. Madhudvisa: So if he created the human species of life, how is the… Prabhupada: No, that other’s creation was there. Just like Lord Siva. He began to create all demons. The Brahma stopped it. So somebody was creating demons, somebody was creating animals. Madhudvisa: Oh, different Manus, uh, different procreators were creating different types. Prabhupada: Yes. Madhudvisa: Paramahamsa was… we were discussing this morning about the species of life. We understood that there is actually all the species of life on this one planet, or some species don’t exist here? Prabhupada: No, everywhere the same process. Everywhere there are living entities in different forms. Srut aki rti: The 8,400,000 species is for the whole universe or for each planet? Prabhupada: Oh, yes. No, whole universe. Devotee: So not all of those species are on this planet. Prabhupada: No, all of them are there. Devotee: On this planet. Prabhupada: Yes. Madhudvisa: And the demigods we cannot see. Like the demigods, the higher human species, we cannot see. Prabhupada: You, why do you believe on your seeing? That is the defect. That is the defect of the Westerners. They are very deficient; still they say, “I cannot see.” What is your seeing power? Suppose if Narada comes, some demigods come, but you cannot see. Just like when Lord Nrsimhadeva appeared, Prahlada was seeing. “Is your God here?” “Yes.” And he could not see. So why do you believe so much on your seeing? You have to attain seeing power. That is very good example, Prahlada… Hiranyakasipu asking Prahlada, “Where is your God?” “My God is everywhere.” “He is on the pillar?” “Yes.” So he was seeing, but he was not seeing. He became angry and broke the pillar. “Let me see, where is your God.” This is the position. So one has to create the eyes to see things. Not that whatever eyes you have got you can see everything. No. Just like motorcar is being driven, a child is seeing that the car is running automatically. And the father is seeing, “No, there is driver.” So the seeing of the child and seeing of the father is different. In our childhood we were thinking that in the gramophone box there is a man. And the fan there is a ghost. (laughter) I remember quite. “How these records are being played? There must be one man. He is singing.” And the electric fan was running, I was thinking there is some ghost. This is the way. Madhudvisa: The demons are trying to go to the heavenly planets by building their skyscrapers higher and higher. Prabhupada: Ravana’s, Ravana’s staircase for going to the heaven. He promised that “Oh, what is the use of austerity? I shall make a staircase directly. You can go.” As their… It is the same, Ravana’s staircase and the modern attempt to go to the moon planet, the same thing. They will never be able to go, but imagining that “We shall do it.” The same process, Ravana’s process. For how many years they are going? Since 1950? Devotee: To the moon expedition? Prabhupada: Yes, moon expedition. Devotee: Maybe 1955. Madhudvisa: 1955. Devotee: The first moon landing was 1961. Prabhupada: That is beginning. First of all they sent dog. (laughter) Madhudvisa: Space dog. Space mouse. Prabhupada: Huh? Space mouse. Devotee: Space monkey also. Prabhupada: So since 1955 even. So twenty years, what they have done? Devotee: Spent billions of dollars. Prabhupada: Yes, simply they have brought little dust, that’s all. Madhudvisa: Now they have found that that same dust is here on the earth. Prabhupada: Yes. Simply propaganda. They are not going. Now the Russian scientist and American scientist are combined. Because both of them thieves, so one thief is asking, “Don’t expose me. I will not expose you, so that our business will go on.” This is the way. “Let us combine together and cheat these rascals, and otherwise, if you expose me, then I will expose you. Then our business will stop.” Devotee: They are cooperating. Prabhupada: Cooperating. Thief, thief’s cooperation. Devotee: In the Bhagavatam in Canto Two, it’s mentioned here that without discrimination both the demigods and the demons worship the Lord as devotees in the Lord’s personal abode. I was wondering if you could explain how this is possible. Prabhupada: Yes. That is the explanation of the sastra. Those who are devotees… You can see the devotees, they are gods, demigods. Visnu-bhakto bhaved daivah. Visnu-bhakta, those who are devotees of Visnu, Vaisnava, they are demigods. So why do you say we do not see the demigods? Madhudvisa: It also says the demons. Prabhupada: Demons, those who are not devotees. Visnu-bhakto bhaved daiva asuras tad-viparyayah. Those who are opposing these Vaisnavas, they are asuras. Madhudvisa: But how is it that a demon is worshiping the Lord? It says in the Bhagavatam, he just read, that the demons are also worshiping the Lord in His personal abode. Prabhupada: Yes. When the demon is promoted to the Vaikuntha, they also become. Just like you are all now Vaisnava. (laughter) Why don’t you compare with yourself? The others are seeing, “What these mlecchas, yavanas, how they can become Vaisnava?” They are seeing like that. Therefore they object. The Vrndavana, “How these Europeans can worship Deity?” They are protesting. Devotee: We can show them this verse. Prabhupada: Well, there are many verses. When one is qualified, he is no longer demon. [break] …big, big sannyasis. So I was a grhastha, they are now saying, “How this grhastha is doing? He was a grhastha. He never lived with us.” They are saying in that way. [break] Tree has spread the roots solid standing. Just see how carefully. Madhudvisa: In the courtyard back at the temple I would like to grow one nim tree. Would that be nice? Prabhupada: Nim tree, how you can get? Madhudvisa: I think we can grow. Get some seed from India. Prabhupada: Yes. Scientists cannot purify the sea water and use it profusely. Why they are depending on rain? Let them purify it and take so much water. Devotee: It’s a very costly process, Srila Prabhupada. Prabhupada: (laughs) Therefore I am asking. Madhudvisa: Krsna is doing it. He is taking the water from the sea and putting it up in the sky, and it becomes very pure. Prabhupada: Millions and millions of tons water taken and distributed. Why their scientists so proud of their achievement? What they can do? Madhudvisa: Hm. It is amazing. There is no factory in the sky to purify the water. Simply by the evaporation of the sun, the water is held up in the sky, and immediately it comes down pure. Prabhupada: And it is stored on the mountain head and it comes down. Eternal supply. Whole year’s supply through the rivers, huge water. You have seen that, what is name, Niagara Falls? Madhudvisa: Yes. You have seen? (laughter) Prabhupada: Yes. Huge water. There are many falls like that. Clean, clear, nice, sweet water is coming. There is sweet-water sea also. Madhudvisa: In the sea. Prabhupada: No, not here. In the sky. There is sweet water, very sweet, nice water, drinking water, sea. Sea of ghee, sea of yogurt, sea of milk. Everything is there. Madhudvisa: There is a government house. Simply a monument now. Prabhupada: The governor lives there? Madhudvisa: Yes. They still let them fly the flag, the British flag. Prabhupada: British flag? Madhudvisa: They still let them fly the British flag on top of the house. Prabhupada: They have disconnected the British? Madhudvisa: Yes, but there is some traditional respect. [break] When you were speaking with the priest yesterday, he was saying the chanting is material because it comes out of the mouth and it’s made like a material sound vibration. Would it be possible for them to run scientific tests on the chanting, the sound of Hare Krsna, to make a distinction between that sound and let’s say the sound of an automobile’s horn? Would that be perceptible? Prabhupada: No, the same sound. Sound is the same; when you are impure, this is material. Just like the tongue is the same, but when you are suffering from jaundice, you are tasting sugar as bitter, and when you will be cured, then the same tongue will taste it is sweet. So it depends on the purification of the body. Whole this bhakti-yoga or any yoga, the whole system is purification. Tapo divyam yena suddhyet sattvam. Our existence is now impure. Therefore we have to accept birth, death, old age, and disease. And when it is purified, without any contamination, then there is no birth, death, old age. In diseased condition you cannot relish. Even if you are given actually rasagulla you will not taste it very nice. If there is no appetite, even it is rasagulla, it is useless. Spiritual life means curing the contamination of material disease. That is spiritual life. And when you are purified, you relish the spiritual taste. Madhudvisa: That is a subjective experience. When you chant Hare Krsna you can say, “Oh, I feel good,” but to someone who won’t chant Hare Krsna, if there was some objective way of measuring the difference between the Hare Krsna sound and the sound of, let’s say, someone’s name. Prabhupada: No, the sound is the same. I gave you the example. The tongue is the same, but according to your condition of life you taste differently. Tongue is not different. But if you are diseased, then with this tongue you taste something else. And if you are in healthy condition, with the same tongue you can taste differently. Devotee: So Srila Prabhupada, if the sound is the same, does that mean that when you become fully purified you will also see the sound of an automobile horn as transcendental? Prabhupada: Yes, this is transcendental, this microphone, because it is being used for Krsna’s purpose. The same flower, when you use it for sense gratification, it is material. The same flower when you offer to Krsna, it is spiritual. The flower is not different, but by the different use it becomes material and spiritual. I think I have said many times that there is actually no material existence. Therefore it is called maya. Maya means it has no actual existence. We create an atmosphere. That is maya. Atmosphere of forgetfulness of Krsna, that is maya. Anartha. Anartha, unnecessary. Anarthopasamam saksad bhakti-yogam. If this park is given to us, we can immediately make it Vaikuntha. We know how to do it. But it is not given to us. The same electric energy is creating heater and cooler. For the cooler there is no different electric energy. And for the heater there is no different—the same electric. Similarly, the material and spiritual is coming from Krsna’s energy. How Krsna’s energy can be material? That is spiritual. In Bhagavad-gita it is said that “These material elements, they are also My energy.” So how Krsna’s energy can be material? Bhinna, separated, a little separated, that’s all. Separated means as soon as you separate Krsna from anything, that is material. That is Krsna consciousness. So you have to dovetail everything with Krsna. Then it will be spiritual. As soon as you say these demons they separate Krsna, “What is Krsna? What is God? We are scientist, we are technicians and so on, so on. We create our own thing.” That means they don’t dovetail with Krsna. Therefore they are materialist. When we want to enjoy life without Krsna, that is material. And Krsna gives chance, “All right, you enjoy without Me.” And when he is disgusted, then Krsna comes once, “Now you have experienced. You haven’t got happiness. Now give up this attitude to enjoy without Me.” Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam… [Bg. 18.66] ”Do it.” This is going on. The rascals, they want to enjoy life without Krsna. The gopis are dancing with Krsna; the dancing is here also, ball dance. Why they do not get any pleasure? Without Krsna. You dance with Krsna, you get real pleasure. So our business is to educate people that “Everything is Krsna. You try to understand.” This is Krsna consciousness. You are trying to forget Krsna. That is your argument. Just like the materialistic person argue, “Why shall I do this? Why shall I go to Krsna?” They argue simply this. Actually, there cannot exist anything without Krsna. Maya tatam idam sarvam, Krsna says. “All this, whatever you see, that is My expansion of energy. Everything is resting on Me.” Mat-sthani sarva-bhutani. “Everything is on Me.” Naham tesu avasthitah. By bhakti-yoga gradually he develops that everything—vasudevah sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19]—everything is Krsna. Sa mahatma sudurlabhah. That mahatma is very rare who can see everywhere Krsna. Vasudevah sarvam iti sa mahatma sudurlabhah [Bg. 7.19]. How it is realized… Madhudvisa: Some people want to artificially jump to that stage of seeing everything is Krsna. Prabhupada: No. Bahunam janmanam ante [Bg. 7.19]. That stage is attained after many many births. Bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate. When one is actually wise, he can see, “Oh, vasudevah sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19], everything is Krsna. Sa mahatma sudurlabhah. That is very rare.” Mahatmanas tu mam partha daivim prakr… [Bg. 9.13]. At that time he is under the control of spiritual energy. And what is the sign? Bhajanty ananya-manasah. He has no other business than to render service to Krsna. That’s all. What is that? Srutakirti: It says this tree is dangerous in a high wind. Devotee: It will break. Prabhupada: Oh. And this path is not dangerous? (laughter) Everything is dangerous in the material world. Padam padam yad vipadam. In every step there is danger. That is material life. [break] …they claim equal rights man and woman. Why in the lavatory they are different? Madhudvisa: They also want to have the same there. Prabhupada: Why there is difference? Ladies and gents. Why not equal right? Srutakirti: In some of our modern universities they are doing that. Prabhupada: Advancing. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupada: Just see, foolishness. But at least somewhere there is no equal right in the lavatory. Hare Krsna. (Greeting someone) I have received your letter, you can see me. [break] (Conversation continues in the car) This too much intermingling of woman means the path of hell. Therefore the restriction is that only the married couple can freely mix, not others. Mahat-sevam dvar… That is the defect of the modern civilization. They are not interested associating with devotees. They are interested associating with man or woman, that’s all. Woman is interested to associate with man, and man is interested to associate with woman. Yositam sangi-sangam. Therefore the civilization is becoming hellish. It is already said in the sastra. One should associate with spiritually advanced men, but that is not being done. Now the woman is hankering after man, man is hankering after woman. Yosit sang… Yosit means for sense gratification. Tamo-dvaram. This is the path of darkness. Just like the priest was saying, “Oh, sex is very nice. Why you stop?” Just see. And he is a priest. Why the Roman Catholics they are ordered not to marry? Why? Roman Catholic are supposed… the fathers and priests, they should remain unmarried, is it not? Madhudvisa: Yes. They remain celibate. He was saying that it is a personal preference. Devotee: They have no general rule. It’s just that if you want to be celibate, then that’s very nice, but if you want to have sex life… Prabhupada: Then why they have recommended this, unless there is some benefit? Srutakirti: Well, that knowledge has been lost through the years. A few hundred years ago, many of the celibates were also vegetarian, but all that has changed. Prabhupada: That means they are gliding down towards hell, that’s all. Yositam sangi-sangam. Now they are coming to the platform of homosex. This is their advancement, spiritual advancement. Yositam sangi-sangam. This is Coca-cola, everywhere. [break] … mukti, liberation, and the word salvation is the same? Then what is the meaning of salvation? Devotee: Salvation means to be saved, liberation. Prabhupada: Then what do they mean by that liberation? Madhudvisa: Salvation means to be saved by Jesus. Saved by Jesus means to… Prabhupada: So what is the platform of that saving? Madhudvisa: To go to heaven, spiritual world. Prabhupada: There is idea of spiritual world? Madhudvisa: Well, there is kingdom of God, but they have vague idea. They say no man has seen God, nor has he seen His kingdom. Prabhupada: Then how Jesus saw? Srutakirti: Well, he was not of this world. When they say no man of this world has seen… Prabhupada: So anyone who is not of this world, he can see. That we say also. Devotee: Yes. Madhudvisa: But they say that no man has seen it nor described it. Prabhupada: No man has seen it, then how Jesus says that there is kingdom of God? Madhudvisa: He said there is the kingdom of God, but he never described it. Prabhupada: Because you cannot understand it, you rascals. He said that “Thou shall not kill” and you killed him. You are so intelligent. “And first of all let us kill this man who is advising ‘Thou shall not kill.’ ” Your intelligence is so sharp. Guru-mara-vidya. First of all kill the guru. That is called guru-mara-vidya. Guru advised that you take food in goodness, sattvika. So he first of all advised that don’t take fish, just like we are advising, meat, eggs, don’t take. Then they thought that “The cow is very pure. Cow is very pure, so let us eat cow, sattvika.” Srutakirti: That is pure, sattvika. Devotee: “Every part of the cow is pure, so we can eat every part of it.” Prabhupada: So when Guru Maharaja inquired that “You have given up everything bad?” “Yes, now we are eating cow.” “What?” “No, it is sattvika.” “No, no, no, no, no. You cannot eat even.” Then they thought, “Then what we shall eat? Guru Maharaja is sattvika, most sattvika. So let us eat him.” (laughter) So it is called guru-mara-vidya. “For sattvika eating, let us eat Guru Maharaja.” This is intelligence. “Why so much botheration seeking here and there? The Guru Maharaja is there.” (end)
with His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada
May 21, 1975, Melbourne