Morning Walk Conversation Prabhupada: …our shelter is land. [break] …Juhu? No, only some birds. (several birds are making noises, including a crow) There is crow. (laughter) Bhaktadasa: We have the ducks and swans over there, and we have the crows here. Prabhupada: Why they are keeping crows? Bahulasva: “Birds of a feather flock together. They are crows so they are keeping crows.” [break] Prabhupada: They say that “You are crows. You have come to see the crow.” (laughter) Will they not say like that? Bahulasva: Yes. [break] Prabhupada: …bottle? Bhaktadasa: This is a office for the zoo. They have a little exhibition of animals and botany. It smells like skunk. [break] Prabhupada: They capture other birds. Bhaktadasa: Yes, right. They eat mice, and birds. Citsukhananda: And chickens. They come flying, those chickens. Prabhupada: [break] …call gaj pat(?). They eat pigeons also. [break] …not very clear. Dirty water. [break] Tamala Krsna: …of the trees in Seva-kunj. Prabhupada: Mm. [break] …are exactly Indian. [break] They have good facilities on this lake. Citsukhananda: They have one church here, Prabhupada. It is Mormon church. It is not too far from here. It is very gigantic, and it’s on a hill. And every Sunday they get maybe five to six thousand guests because they have spent great money on a big complex. They have a library, museum and church. This is… We could also do this sometime, make one nice Indian temple. Thousands of visitors would come, even just tourists, from all over the world. They could probably come the same way. Ours would be much better, though. Prabhupada: Yes. Very good idea. [break] …also very nice. Bahulasva: The lake? Prabhupada: Hm. Due to that lake. [break] Bahulasva: …but no one can swim. Prabhupada: Accha? Bahulasva: That big lake in Chicago? No one can swim because of the pollution. Prabhupada: How they polluted, such a big lake? Bahulasva: By factories. Many factories are there. Dharmadhyaksa: They empty all their waste directly into the lake. All the fish are dying. Prabhupada: Here some fishy smell. [break] Bahulasva: …gentleman first has to understand that he’s not the body. That psychologist gentleman has to understand he’s not the body first. Prabhupada: Hm. So, what did he say? Bahulasva: Yeah, he believes that there is soul and that you’re not the body, and he’s hoping that he’ll be able to become more serious about studying Bhagavad-gita to understand that more clearly. Prabhupada: So let him prove there is soul. That will be great service to the western world, if a scientist and philosopher, psychologist proves that “Here is soul.” Bahulasva: Srila Prabhupada, how should they set out to prove it, though? We’ve proved it by giving scriptural evidence. But how should a scientist do it? Prabhupada: No, we prove it as a living and dead man, we give that proof. What is the difference between this dead man and living man? What is losing? What is missing? This is the proof. If… I so many times spoken that son is crying, “My father is gone, my father.” “Where is your father gone? He is lying here. So what is gone? You have not seen it.” This is the proof. Why do you cry, “Father is gone”? Father is lying here. Why do you say, “gone”? So that means what is gone, you have never seen it. Now you perceive, “Yes, something was there. Now he is gone.” This is the proof. Bahulasva: So our statements are also backed up by observation. The Gita’s statements are also backed up by observation. Prabhupada: Yes. Science means observation and experiment. That is science. You observe that this man is moving. There is something… (sound of someone calling from a distance) (Prabhupada calls:) Invite him. You are invited come. (laughter) Dharmadhyaksa: Srila Prabhupada, the psychologist is in ecstasy every time he speaks to you. Prabhupada: Hmm. No, he is a good boy. Although I say, “You do not know anything.” (laughter) Tamala Krsna: He didn’t become angry? Prabhupada: No. Brahmananda: He admitted. Prabhupada: He is good man. Bahulasva: He has some humility. Guru dasa: You tell everyone that and they come back for more. (Prabhupada chuckles) Bahulasva: So science means observation, Srila Prabhupada. Prabhupada: Yes, observation and experiment. Bahulasva: And experiment. Prabhupada: Yes. That is science. [break] Guru dasa: To make an experiment by chanting Hare Krsna. Prabhupada: No. Here is experiment, just like the dead man and living man. First of all, you observe that this man is moving or this animal is moving. There is some moving force. And the experiment is when the man and animal is dead, you can understand that the moving force is gone. This is experiment. Tamala Krsna: Your car is here, Srila Prabhupada. Jayatirtha: We can walk further if you like. Prabhupada: Oh, yes. [break] Siddha-svarupa: The psychologists feel limited by the particulars means of experimentation that have already been used by other psychologists. Prabhupada: What experiments they have made? Siddha-svarupa: Well, these particular tests and so on that they’re using. So it seems that he ought to change. Because somebody started doing that, right? I mean, they didn’t always use those tests. They always change different kinds of tests and everything. Instead of being limited, he should offer a new method of observation, a new method of tests. Prabhupada: It is simple, but because of their bad education, they cannot understand the simple thing. Bahulasva: They want everything complicated. Prabhupada: Complicated. The experiment is there. Observation is there. Everything is there. And the eternity is there. Krsna begins like reasonable gentleman, not humbug. He says, tatha-dehantara-praptih, very good example, that “As in this, body is changing from this stage to this stage, this stage, this stage, step by step, similarly,” tatha dehantara-praptih, “similarly another body.” So where is the difficulty to understand? So if this is accepted, then immediately you can accept that the soul which is changing body, he is eternal. Na jayate na mriyate. Therefore he was never born, never died. Jayatirtha: When Arjuna came, he was suffering so much distress, but Krsna did not give him any psychological test to see what was the matter with him. He immediately knew it was because he was in the bodily conception of life. Tamala Krsna: Prabhupada, the thing is that you say that it is life which makes matter move, but the scientists, they don’t accept that. Prabhupada: Because they are rascals. How it is moving? Tamala Krsna: They say it’s a certain combination of matter. Prabhupada: You make it. That means experiment. You simply observe, but you have no experiment. Therefore it is not science. Brahmananda: You have to demonstrate knowledge. Prabhupada: Yes, demonstrate. You make in the laboratory that things are moving by this combination. Otherwise it is useless. Therefore two things must be there: observation and experiment, practical and theoretical. Theoretical—something is there who is moving. Now you make it practical to see that this combination… Just like they say chemical combination. Now take the chemicals and make experiment. Tamala Krsna: No, the thing is that they are now in the test tube they are making experiment, and they are putting a certain set of chemicals together and maybe some soul takes shelter of those chemicals. But the scientists say that they get the credit for it. They don’t say that the soul has entered. They say, “No, we have put different elements together, and now some…” Prabhupada: No. Bahulasva: They have never done that successfully. Prabhupada: And even they are successful, what is credit? So many living entities are coming every minute, and if after thousand years, they can create one ant, so what is the credit? (laughter) Bahulasva: Srila Prabhupada, now the impersonalists, they will accept that there’s something in that body that’s different than matter, but they won’t admit that that’s a person. They say that it’s just some type of energy force, or they call it consciousness. Prabhupada: But we haven’t got to hear from them. You take lesson from Krsna. Nalini-kantha: Are they better situated than the person who doesn’t accept it at all? Prabhupada: Hm? Nalini-kantha: The impersonalists that denounce Krsna, are they better than the person who is ignorant of eternity? Prabhupada: Who is he ignorant of? Bahulasva: The common man. Tamala Krsna: Are the impersonalists better than the gross materialists? Prabhupada: Yes. That is Sankara’s philosophy. Brahma satyam jagan mithya. That is his philosophy. Brahman means that spirit soul, that is fact. And this material external, that is false. A little advanced than the Buddha philosophy. Bahulasva: Srila Prabhupada, how is it that they describe the soul, the impersonalists? Prabhupada: Because they have no eyes to see. They say that “The body is finished. Now…” Gatakasa potakasa. They give the example, just like within the pot there is sky, and outside the pot there is sky and when the pot is broken, the within sky mixes with the outside sky. Bahulasva: So we say that within the pot, or the body, there is consciousness, and that remains eternally individual. Prabhupada: Yes. That is said by Krsna. It is not our imagination. Bahulasva: So the eternal characteristic of the self, then, is that he is pure consciousness. Prabhupada: Pure consciousness, Krsna consciousness. He knows that “I am part and parcel of Krsna.” That is pure consciousness. Bahulasva: And therefore His servant. Prabhupada: Yes. Part and parcel means servant. Hare Krsna. Bahulasva: Would you like to walk further, Srila Prabhupada? Prabhupada: No. What is the time now? Bahulasva: It’s twenty to seven. Prabhupada: That’s all right. Let us go. Jayatirtha: It’s time to go. (end)
with His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada
July 20, 1975, San Francisco