Morning Walk Conversation
with His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada
November 2, 1975, Nairobi

Prabhupada: …brain.

Brahmananda: That’s an accident. That’s an accident.

Prabhupada: Accident. All accidents make symmetrically so beautiful.

Harikesa: So in the beginning only it was an accident. Then it became regular, after that first accident.

Prabhupada: Yes. So in the beginning let us kick. Then things will be all right. [break] Bhagavad-gita says in the beginning? Hm? What is the beginning?

Brahmananda: Aham bija-pradah pita.

Prabhupada: Ah. Bijo ’ham sarva-bhutanam, very good. Thank you very much. All these plants begins from the seed. That seed… Krsna says, “I am the seed.” So how it is accident? Every plant has got a particular type of seed. You cannot change it. You take two seeds. It will grow as it is; it will grow as it is. Not that by accident it will grow like this and it will grow like this, no. Rose seed will grow rose tree, and mango seed will grow mangoes. Where is accident? The seed is there. Simply rascals.

Harikesa: It’s an accident where the seed falls.

Prabhupada: Then you are great scientist. Let me kick on your face. (laughter)

Devotee (1): What about cross-breeding, when they change the…? Cross-breeding.

Prabhupada: That is not accident, cross-breeding. You arrange for that.

Devotee (1): They change the original seed.

Prabhupada: Then what is that? That is not accident. You are doing that. How you say it is accident? Why do you put this rascal question? As you are doing otherwise, it is coming otherwise. How you can say it is accident? Accident means nobody interferes; it comes. That is accident.

Harikesa: Well, it may not be an accident, but it proves how we’re becoming superior to the nature. We can control it. More and more, every day we’re controlling.

Prabhupada: How you can become superior? Nature has already given you, and then you are able to act. Where is your superiority? Huh?

Devotee (2): That is a good point.

Prabhupada: [break] …given by God. Mattah smrtir jnanam apohanam. You have no intelligence even, so that is given by God. (Hindi) Let them become devotees. Why these old men, they are not coming? They are still after money? Amara ajnaya guru hana tara ei desa [Cc. Madhya 7.128], Caitanya Mahaprabhu says. So you have come to this country. Do something good for these Africans. Let them become devotee. Where is that attempt? The white men, they also came to exploit them, and you have also come to exploit them. But Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, “No—para upakara.” Upakara kara. That is Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s… They are not so advanced; make them advanced. That is real cooperation. (Hindi) [break] Just like every one of them is attached to remain in Africa, continuing to… But they are being forcefully driven away: “Go away.” Attachment must be there. The Englishmen, they have got attachment, but they were forcefully driven away. Similarly, this conditioned soul, he has got attachment. And sastra and sastra… These people were driven away by sastra,, by weapon, knife. That is sastra. And sastra is the same thing, but it is books. Therefore it is called sastra. The original word is coming from sas. Sas means ruling, sas-dhatu. Sastra, sastra, sasana, sisya. Sisya. Sisya means voluntarily accepting ruling. That is called sisya. The word is the same, sas. From sas, sisya. From sas, sastra. From sas, sastra. From sas, sasana. These are. So sometimes by force, sometimes by voluntarily… So just like guru-sisya. The guru, he gives enlightenment, and sisya voluntarily accepts. That is guru-sisya. Similarly sastra means weapon: “If you don’t follow, then I shall cut your throat.” Similarly sastra. So sastra says that “Now you must leave your family life.” That is called vanaprastha. So that is not being carried out, although the sastra injunction is there. Brahmacari, grhastha, vanaprastha, sannyasa. So brahmacari is the beginning of life, how to become controlled life. Then he is allowed the concession for sense gratification. This is grhastha. Then sastra says, “Now you have done up to fifty years. Now get out.” But nobody is following. They are not prepared to get out unless death forces to get out. That Krsna does. Mrtyuh sarva-haras caham. He is not willing. He has got attachment. He doesn’t want. Then, at last, Krsna comes as death: “Now get out.” Kick out. “Oh, I have got so many things. I have got my sons, daughters, and this, that.” “Get out. No question.” And whatever you have accumulated, that is forfeit. That’s all. The same process, just Africa government: “Get out.” And what you have attained? All taken away. The same sastra, sis, sas-dhatu.

Indian woman: Srila Prabhupada, I am very surprised. I’m not born in India but I born in Africa. But why this culture I had in my heart from the start even? Forty-five years, that time was my… Forty years. And I only see my husband also. So I will give you service in this for fifty years. As you’ll need any service from me, you take from me. Only…

Prabhupada: That means in your previous life you were in these activities. That comes. That dictates, “Now do it.” So even though you became woman, still, that instinct was there. You had it done in your previous life. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita.

Brahmananda: Yoga-bhrasto.

Indian woman: I was waiting to decide, but I thinking, “How I go to see Krsna?”

Prabhupada: Sucinam srimatam gehe. What is that?

Indian woman: So you come in my life. Before that time I was only forty-eight years.

Prabhupada: So now the older section of the Indians, they should give up their family life and live in this temple, cultivate this spiritual life and preach. You see. There will be very nice relationship.

Indian woman: Everyone, every state, this is true. Sometimes I go to preaching. I not looking “Asian,” or such and such. Anyone I go to preach.

Prabhupada: We are all part and parcel of God. The outward dress only makes difference that “I am African,” “I am Indian,” “I am this.” Panditah sama-darsinah [Bg. 5.18]. Therefore one who is learned, he does not make that difference. That is accidental, that by… You can say acci… That is also not accidental, but some way or other, it has become so. The dress is different. But our movement is not with the dress but with the living being who has the dress. This is movement. Our, this is completely spiritual movement.

Indian man (4): Many intelligent people in Africa, they are taking it very seriously. We have one professor, Entenjania Danisanjunibristi. He’s a very young boy. So he bought your Bhagavad-gita and Bhagavat dasa was there. So he took all the picture out, all the picture, and he framed. I have seen in the room. He put all the pictures in his room. Then he was writing me from a long time. He became our patron life member, and now he chants sixteen rounds. He has gone to London for our course. He said, “After finishing this course I will take initiation from His Divine Grace. Then I will dedicate my whole life to preach in the university.”

Prabhupada: He is Indian or African?

Indian man (4): No, no, African. He’s a professor. Oh, yes. You have seen the letter, I think. So when I was in, then I was in Mandena’s room. He said “No, you stay with me. Don’t stay with the Asians.” So I was in (?) university, you know. He said Asian can take this philosophy and not be so serious. Now he has gone to London. He may see you when you will be there, for a year. And he chants sixteen rounds. He has nobody, no picture else in his room. There was one picture of the president there. He took it down and he put a Krsna picture there. So it’s very serious. And he said, “I don’t know. Since I have read the Bhagavad-gita I go to my class to give a class to the students and I don’t speak anything else about the scriptures.”

Prabhupada: That is the sign.

Indian man (4): And he’s a very strong, Prabhupada, also, very strong.

Prabhupada: That is said about Prahlada Maharaja when he was boy. So he has been described as krsna-graha-praptah. Just like under the influence of planet one becomes, what is called, ghostly haunted, like that, so devotee means when he becomes Krsna haunted. That is wanted. That is Krsna conscious. He does not think anything else except Krsna. That is wanted. Krsna-graha-praptah.

Indian woman: (indistinct) …a few days before I been here for the (indistinct) my family complained me, “Mom, you don’t know. Yesterday was very big day. Oh, you forget.” (indistinct) Krsna’s wedding ceremony (indistinct) myself I forget everything. They start to complain go there (indistinct) I have not anything. They start to talk with me business, this and that. (indistinct) immediately I will give. Answer immediately because I always Sometimes guest there are I start to preach (indistinct) say something. It’s okay. Then you like talking your matter. Then I will talk (indistinct).

Prabhupada: (aside:) Don’t spoil your nail.

Indian woman: Automatic change.

Brahmananda: When someone takes so spontaneously, like this African, without any preaching, but just spontaneously take…

Prabhupada: Yes. They are not yet so advanced.

Brahmananda: But it means in past life there must have been some connection if he immediately takes it so wholeheartedly, without any previous connection.

Indian man (4): The Indian people, when they see the Africans in the temple, singing and all that, they criticize, you know. They criticize us. They say, “Oh, you…” That boy, he told me. He read your Nectar of Devotion. Then he came to the conclusion… He read the story also of Maharaja Ambarisa. So he used to go to the Hindu temple to clean the floor early in the morning before going to university. He told me that he went for one week and they never said anything. When he was going daily the temple, they told him, “Don’t come here. Don’t clean here. We don’t want the African to come.” So then he told me that “What should I do? I want to follow the Prabhupada instruction. So what should I do? Prabhupada said in his books that if one cannot do anything, simply he should go to the temple and clean the room.” He was so serious. Then I told the pujari that “Why you are doing like that? He wants to serve the Lord. Why don’t you let him serve? You want to keep out the inside the temple and throw the pots and the cigarette in the temple?” (?) So they criticize like that sometimes. They’re simply imitating us.

Brahmananda: There was a man yesterday at Dabji’s house who was the brahmana who was officiating. He is a very much caste conscious brahmana, and although he and Shah were the first ones to meet you at the Nairobi airport when you arrived, in Nairobi, as soon as he heard your philosophy, he has never come. He came the first day only when you first arrived, and since that day he has never come. And yesterday I think he must have just come because Shah forced him. But he does not at all like our philosophy that brahmana by qualification. He is very staunch—“brahmana by birth.”

Devotee (5): They always say the Africans could never become Krsna conscious.

Prabhupada: How they are becoming?

Devotee (5): They don’t believe.

Prabhupada: Believe? You do not see even?

Devotee (5): But they say that “Oh, he will do it, and then, after one year, he will stop.”

Prabhupada: Well, that is another criticism. Somebody is eating nice yogurt. Everyone will say, “Oh, it is very nice. It is very nice, very nice.” Another man says, “Yes, it is nice, but after three days it will be sour.” (laughter) You rascal, you consider for the present. What “after three days”? Means he’s a bad critic, so he could not find out any fault. Everyone says it is good. So “After three days it will be bad.” This sort of criticism. So you have already become bad. You were doing service to others. What does he do, that priest?

Brahmananda: He’s a businessman.

Prabhupada: Business. So is that…? The business is the occupation of brahmana? You are already fallen. How he can criticize others?

Indian woman: That is all, brahmanas, all brahmanas, there is no big knowledge. That is Siva. Siva is the head.

Prabhupada: That’s all. Siva is the head, but whether you are brahmana? That is the question.

Indian woman: They don’t know, understand.

Prabhupada: Brahmana’s qualification is there—sama, dama, titiksa, arjavam and jnanam, vijnanam, astikyam, brahma-karma… Everything is there, the symptoms. So you are doing business, the occupation of the vaisyas or sudras, and how you are claiming to become brahmana? The… Who is a brahmana, that symptoms is there in the sastra. And not only the symptoms, Narada Muni has said, “If these symptoms are found elsewhere, then he should be accepted according to the symptom.” There is no question of birth. Yasya hi yal laksanam proktam varnabhivyanjakam yady anyatrapi drsyeta tat tenaiva viniriset. This is Narada’s vision. So it is the symptom. Just like a doctor, medical man. He diagnoses according to the symptom. He finds out the cause. So symptom is required, not that a man has become diseased or healthy by birth. No. By birth he is born. Then again, when he develops certain types of symptom, so one has to take him in that way. That is sastra. We are accepting, or giving them sacred thread, brahmana, after seeing that they are actually acting as a brahmana, not superficially. Therefore we take some time to see whether he can develop brahminical symptom. That is our process, not that anyone comes, and we give him a sacred thread and he becomes immediately brahmana. We don’t do this. First of all give him chance. Let him chant Hare Krsna, follows the rules and regulations. Then let us see. If he is actually serious, he has developed the symptom, then… This is the proper way. Even one comes from the brahmana family—he wants initiation—we don’t give immediately, even if he is coming from a brahmana… That is a good facility, that he is born in a brahmana family, but the symptom is the first necessity. Either you are born in a brahmana family or sudra family, it doesn’t matter.

Indian man (6): (unclear)

Brahmananda: What is that? The brahmanas who come over from?

Indian man (6): From ISKCON center. We have a tendency (unclear)

Brahmananda: Yes. So what is your question?

Indian man (6): So don’t you think that the blame should not be, usually be laid on the Africans but on the whole…?

Brahmananda: He’s saying that the brahmanas who comes from our overseas temples here, it’s their responsibility to see that the Africans follow properly, because the Africans will follow their example.

Prabhupada: Yes, it is for that purpose they have come. That is the purpose, missionary purpose, here. We come here not to earn some money but to see that this culture is spread. So what is his question?

Brahmananda: So it’s the responsibility then of those who are coming as the missionaries to set the proper example.

Prabhupada: Yes, certainly.

Brahmananda: Because then the Africans will follow that proper example.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Yes, he is right.

Brahmananda: If they set a bad example, then they will follow bad example, then the criticism of the Indians will be justified.

Prabhupada: Yes. That’s it. So those who cannot follow, they should not come here. And ask from the origin that “Those who cannot strictly follow the rules and regulations, they should not come at all. It will set a bad example. They should be forbidden to come here.” That I was speaking, that instead of filling with bad cows, better keep the cowshed vacant. That I was speaking. Those who cannot strictly follow our principles, they should not come here. It is bad example. By mistake, if somebody does, he should be regretful and he should rectify. That is another thing. But not willingly he should neglect. Then such person is not required at all.

Devotee (7): Prabhupada, in the movement there is sometimes difficulty, and…

Prabhupada: What is the difficulty? You chant sixteen rounds and follow the regulative… Where is the difficulty?

Devotee (7): If they will not accept instruction, then…

Cyavana: Then what is your instruction? If they won’t accept your instruction, then what is your instruction? Must be bogus. Huh? If your instruction is pure, then they’ll accept. If your instruction is not pure, who will accept? I will not accept.

Prabhupada: No, “Example is better than precept.” If you actually follow strictly the rules and regulations and chant sixteen rounds, why they’ll not follow? They’ll follow. If you are not attending class, if you are not attending mangala arati, if you are not finishing sixteen rounds, then that is bad example.

Brahmananda: This boy didn’t attend mangal arati.

Prabhupada: Don’t set bad example. That is detrimental.

Devotee (7): Srila Prabhupada, is it for the advanced devotees…?

Prabhupada: Nobody is advanced. Everyone is student. He must follow. There is no question of advanced.

Devotee (7): I mean, they call sudras…

Prabhupada: Sudras? Sudra, how he can be devotee? Sudras are never devotee.

Indian man (4): No, he says sometimes the devotees, they call the other devotee that “You are sudra.”

Prabhupada: That is jokingly. (laughter)

Indian man (4): Prabhupada, sometimes you have said that this Gayatri was first spoken by the Lord, and this is a sound vibration of the Krsna’s flute, and it was heard by Brahma. Right? And these brahmanas, so-called brahmanas…

Prabhupada: There is no question of “so-called.” We want real brahmana. That’s all. It was heard by the real brahmana, Brahma. Brahma, Brahma.

Indian man (4): So they worship Gayatri. They say it like as a…

Prabhupada: They… Whatever they say, you forget that. You do your own duty. You follow the rules and regulation and do the needful. Why you…?

Indian man (4): But we have to make them understand very clearly.

Prabhupada: But they will never understand. You don’t waste your time. Go on with your duty. When they will see that you are actually acting as brahmana, they will appreciate.

Indian woman: Time will come. They will notice.

Prabhupada: Yes, they will appreciate. But if you don’t follow strictly, then it is useless to criticize them also. You are also victim; they are also victim.

Devotee (8): When chanting our sixteen rounds, we are not sure if these rounds are sincere…

Prabhupada: You should be sure.

Devotee (8): How can we be sure?

Prabhupada: There is beads.

Brahmananda: No, he’s saying that when we chant our rounds, how can we be sure that when we chant the round that the round is a perfect, attentive round, sincere?

Prabhupada: Therefore it is sastra, “You must.” There is no question of understanding.

Brahmananda: The quality of the chanting he’s asking. How can we make the quality the best?

Prabhupada: Quality, you’ll understand first of all come to the quality. Without having quality, how he’ll understand the quality? You follow the instruction of your spiritual master, of the sastra. That is your duty. Quality, no quality—it is not your position to understand. When the quality comes there is no force. You will have a taste for chanting. You will desire at that time, “Why sixteen round? Why not sixteen thousand rounds?” That is quality. That is quality. It is by force. You’ll not do it; therefore at least sixteen rounds. But when you come to the quality, you will feel yourself, “Why sixteen? Why not sixteen thousand?” That is quality, automatically. Just like Haridasa Thakura was doing. He was not forced to do. Even Caitanya Mahaprabhu, He requested, “Now you are old enough. You can reduce.” So he refused, “No. Up to the end of my life I shall go on.” That is quality. Have you got such tendency that you will go on chanting and nothing to do? That is quality. Now you are forced to do. Where is the question of quality? That is given a chance so that one day you may come to the quality, not that you have come to the quality. Quality is different. Athasaktih. Asakti, attachment. Just like Rupa Gosvami says that “How shall I chant with one tongue, and how shall I hear, two ears? Had it been millions of tongue and trillions of ear, then I could enjoy it.” This is quality. Quality is not so cheap. Maybe after many births. For the time being you go on following the rules and regulations. It is being done by force. Where is the quality? So you wanted to understand quality. This is the quality. You’ll not be forced, but automatically you’ll desire. That is quality. I am writing books. I am not being forced by anyone. Everyone can do that. Why one does not do it? Why I get up at night, one o’clock, and do this job? Because I cannot do without it. How one will do it artificially? This is quality. Therefore they like my purports. That quality is shown by Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Sunyayitam jagat sarvam govinda virahena me. “Oh, I do not see Govinda. The whole world is vacant.” Sunyayitam jagat sarvam govinda virahena me. This is quality. Just like we have got practical example. One man’s beloved has died, and he is seeing the whole universe vacant. Is it vacant? So that is quality of love. So there is no formula of quality. It is to be understood by himself. Just like if after eating something you feel refreshed and get strength, that is quality. You haven’t got to take certificate: “Will you give me a certificate that I have eaten?” You’ll understand whether eaten or not. That is quality. When you will feel so much ecstasy in chanting Hare Krsna, that is quality. Not artificially—”Chant. Chant. Otherwise get out.” This is not quality. This is in expectation that someday you may come to quality. That requires time. That requires sincerity. But quality is there. Sravanadi suddha citte karaye… It will be awakened. Not by force. Just like love between two persons, it cannot be forced. “You must love him. You must love her.” Oh, that is no love. That is not love. When automatically you love one another, that is quality. Dora vede(?) prema. And therefore formerly, at least in the Indian society, at an early age they were married. There is no quality in that quality. But gradually, remaining together, the quality of love increases. Then the wife takes care of the husband, and the husband takes care. They become bound up, united in love. That is quality. In the beginning, what the child knows about love? No. But they are allowed to remain as husband and wife. They are thinking that “I have got my husband,” “I have got my wife,” and as the age increases, the dealings become intimate. Then they become affectionate. That is quality. Not in the beginning there is any quality. It is by the parents’ arrangement. That’s all. In our day, the marriage was performed when the girl is ten years, twelve years, nine years. Twelve years is very late marriage. My second sister, she became twelve years old. So my mother became so disturbed that “This girl is not being married. Shall I commit suicide?” Yes. You see? My eldest sister, she was nine years old, older than me, and she was married before my birth. And my mother-in-law was married at the age of seven years, and my father-in-law was eleven years. I was married… My wife was eleven years. So in this age there is no question of love. It is not that the husband and wife lives together, no. Unless the girl is grown up, she is not going to the husband. She remains with the father and mother. Sometimes they meet, and the wife is taught, giving some sweetmeat to the husband—official. Official. The parents of the girl: “Just go up to your husband and offer this.” So she comes as obedient servant. But gradually they get the connection. In this way the love develops, and when they are fifteen, sixteen years old, they are allowed to live together. Because both of them have already developed that “She is my wife,” “He is my husband,” psychologically. And there was no question of divorce. The love is so strong, they cannot dream even that “I have to leave my wife,” “I have to leave my husband.” They cannot dream it. They may fight. The husband and wife fighting, that is not unusual. Therefore Canakya Pandita says, “Fight between the husband, wife, never take it seriously.” Dampatye kalahe caiva bambharambhe laghu-kriya: “They’ll make all arambha, but it is not very important. Don’t take.” Next moment they will again live peacefully. So according to Indian culture, there is no divorce. There is no question of divorce. Both the husband and wife, they cannot dream of divorce. The love was so strong. Even Gandhi’s life, he fought with his wife and pushed her out of the house: “Get out, I don’t want you.” And Kasturabhai, she began to cry on the street, “Where shall I go? You have driven me away.” Then Gandhi said, “Come on.” Finished. (laughter) He has written in his life.

Harikesa: I’m curious about the destination of a neophyte devotee. If a neophyte devotee is with determination endeavoring for purification but he were to meet with death as he is still influenced by the lower modes, although he is seriously trying, then does he take another birth or does he go to Krsna?

Prabhupada: No, he has to take another birth. If he is not completely purified, he has to suffer another birth. Nobody is allowed to enter into the spiritual unless he is cent percent pure. No allowance. Then he has to… Therefore it is said, sucinam srimatam gehe yoga-bhrasto sanjayate. He is given chance, another chance, to take birth in a very pure brahmana family or rich family so that he may take again the chance, not in, he is allowed to enter. He is given a good chance again. That is his benefit. Even if you are failure, still, your next birth as a very first-class human being is guaranteed. Not for others. It is only for the yogis. If he is… Therefore it is said that “What is the loss even if he is failure?” Tyaktva sva-dharmam caranambujam harer bhajann apakvo ’tha patet tato yadi yatra kva va abhadram abhud amusya kim [Bhag. 1.5.17]. This verse is very important. Even by sentiment one comes to Krsna consciousness and discharges the regulative duties, chants Hare Krsna, his next life is guaranteed as a human being. Even he does it for some time—he is not perfect—still, his next life is guaranteed. But others, there is no such guarantee. Even if he discharges his so-called duties, material duties, there is no guarantee that he’ll become a human being. [break]

Harikesa: They let him stay in that body and then he went to Hrsikesa and performed devotional service and then became perfect.

Prabhupada: No, he was already perfect, but to increase his desire— ”How shall I go Vaikuntha?”—another time he had to go. He was a perfect; otherwise how he was saved from the Yamadutas?

Harikesa: So if a devotee dies and remembers Krsna, although he is not perfect…

Prabhupada: Unless he is perfect, he cannot remember Krsna. That is not possible. That is not possible. That is theory only. He must be perfect. Somehow or other, he fallen, so Krsna gives him the chance. That is special concession for devotee. Some way or other, you become devotee. Even if you cannot finish the whole job, if you fall down, still, there is guarantee that you get your birth in a very good society. That is the prerogative.

Jnana: What about like Maharaja Bharata?

Prabhupada: That was also. If Maharaja Bharata… It was punishment and reward also. Maharaja Bharata, although he became a deer, he remembered that he was such and such exalted position but “I became attached to the deer and I forgot my regular duties.” Maharaja Bharata, he became so much attached to the deer, he forgot his regular duties. Therefore he was punished. But he remembered that “I was in such exalted position. On account of my attachment to the deer I have fallen.” Therefore he rectified himself so that in his next life he became completely silent so that “I may not fall down,” Jada Bharata. This association, material association, is so dangerous, so he remained just like a dull madman. That’s all. He was talking with nobody; he was not mixing with anybody. Whatever one would do, he did not protest, but his knowledge was full.

Devotee (7): Is there any difference in (indistinct) when somebody is chanting japa under the tree and someone who is chanting japa in the temple?

Prabhupada: Hm?

Brahmananda: I think sometimes we recommend the devotees to chant their rounds in the temple rather than walk in other places.

Prabhupada: Why one should walk other places? Who has said that you go out, walk other places? Never said.

Devotee (7): It may not really be necessary.

Prabhupada: No. You should chant in the temple. Why should you go to other place?

Devotee (7): So there is no difference someone chanting out of the temple, in the temple.

Prabhupada: Why you should go outside? Who has allowed him to go outside? Unless he has got some important business for the temple, why one should go to outside? There is no need. That is the chance of falling down. Why you should go outside? We are arranging for the temple, for the food. Why? Because everyone should stick to the temple and the principles. Why you should go to outside? That should be stopped. You cannot go outside.

Devotee (7): May we go to the shop to buy something?

Prabhupada: That is another thing. That is for temple’s benefit or business. That is another thing. Somebody goes to sell books, somebody goes to make some life members. That is another thing. Otherwise one is not allowed at all. Not whimsically “I am going out.” Why you are spoiling your men?

Devotee (9): Prabhupada, sometimes I’ve seen devotees say that they did not like to chant in the temple room with the opposite…

Prabhupada: Then that is a rascal. He is not a devotee. He is a rascal, when a devotee says… How you become devoted? If he does not like the temple and he thinks to be happy outside, what is he? What kind of devotee he is? He is not a devotee.

Devotee (9): What I meant to say is he does not want to chant with women in the temple room. I have seen this before. He says, “I do not want to chant in a room with women. I would rather be away from the women.”

Prabhupada: That means he has got distinction between men and women. He is not yet pandit. Panditah sama-darsinah [Bg. 5.18]. He is a fool. That’s all. He is a fool. So what is the value of his words? He is a fool.

Indian man (4): So he’ll go first to make…

Prabhupada: He should always consider, “There is woman, that’s all. She is my mother.” That’s all. Matrvat para-daresu. Then what is the…? Suppose you sit down with your mother and chant. What is the wrong? But he is not so strong; then he should go to the forest. Why he should live in the Nairobi city? On the street there are so many women. He will walk on the street closing the eyes? (laughter) This is all rascaldom. They are rascals. They are not devotees, simply rascals.

Indian man (4): Some of our devotee goes to the other temple like Swami Narayana and they want to see the ladies there, so then they are taking these instruction from them.

Prabhupada: Our devotees go to Swami Narayana?

Indian man (4): Yes, they go. Here our devotees, they went to Mombassa for, after Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu. When I was not there, all of them went to Swami…

Prabhupada: These things should be stopped. They leave their own temple and go to Swami Narayana temple? Stop.

Indian man (4): They likes their lunch. They goes for lunch. Yes, that’s true. All of them went without asking me. About five, six devotees, immediately from here went to Swami Narayana.

Prabhupada: So this should be rectified.

Indian man (4): And their theory is that… I asked Vipramukhya Swami that “Why you have put this? Why you say to your disciple that we should not see the face of the woman?” He said that, “We should avoid.” But I said, “Well, okay, when you are walking on the road automatically you will see the ladies.” He said, “We turn our face to one side.” I said, “First you have seen the woman. Then you are turning.” (laughter) “You will look further. You have not seen the women. You have no sense, you know.”

Prabhupada: These are all bogus things. One should train himself that matravat para-daresu, all women, “my mother.” Then it will be possible to live… Therefore the etiquette is to address every woman, ”Ma, ma, mother.” That is the etiquette.

Brahmananda: You say like “Mother Rukmini”? There’s a devotee named Rukmini. You say, “Mother Rukmini”? How do you address a woman? Do you say, “Mother,” and then the name of the devotee?

Prabhupada: No. “Mother,” simply.

Brahmananda: Just “Mother.”

Prabhupada: Yes. They should be addressed, “Mother.” That will train.

Indian man (4): In our Indian culture they don’t call the name of the mother never, children don’t.

Prabhupada: No. “Mother,” simply “mother,” that’s all. And if the woman treats man as son, then it is all right. It is safe.

Indian woman: We got a very sweet sound. Everything we use “ji.” “Mataji”, “Pitaji,” “Brataji,” “Bahinji.”

Prabhupada: Or… And the woman says, “Beta.”(?) That’s all right.

Devotee (5): The only trouble is in the West we’re accustomed to not like our mothers.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Devotee (5): In the West we don’t like our mothers.

Prabhupada: So you should forget your West or East. [break]

Brahmananda: Similarly, wife should not be called “Mother.”

Prabhupada: No. Therefore it is said, “other’s wife,” not your wife. But Ramakrishnan, he was saying his wife “mother,” and he became famous by this foolishness.

Indian man (4): Ramakrishnan, there are many like Shyama mother. Her husband, he calls her “mother.”

Prabhupada: Just see. In the Brahma-samaj they call the wife as “sister,” and the wife calls the husband “brother,” address like that.

Indian man (6): Srila Prabhupada, since there is no distinction between “man” and “woman”—these are both designations—is it possible for a woman to become a brahmana?

Brahmananda: Is it possible for a woman to become a brahmana?

Prabhupada: He is… Woman is a brahmana’s wife. Then she is automatically a brahmana.

Indian man (6): Suppose she doesn’t want to get married for the rest of her life, just wants to serve the Lord?

Prabhupada: So in his spiritual position everyone is a brahmana.

Brahmananda: But you give brahminical initiation to unmarried women.

Prabhupada: Yes. But on spiritual point she is brahmana. On the spiritual platform there is no such distinction.

Devotee (7): Oh, it’s not possible for a woman to become a sannyasi.

Prabhupada: No.

Devotee (2): What is the position of the woman in a…, late in life, the wife of a devotee?

Prabhupada: What is that position?

Brahmananda: After the husband takes sannyasa?

Devotee (2): Yes.

Brahmananda: What is the duties of the woman after the husband takes sannyasa?

Prabhupada: So remain a devotee, widow. She is not allowed to marry.

Indian man (4): I know, Prabhupada, one of your Godsisters in Vrndavana. She is very old. She is staying in Tirtha Maharaja’s matha. So she told me she took her initiation when she was about sixteen year old and still she stays in the temple and she… [break] …say you’re the most pious person on this planet.

Prabhupada: Yes. Hare Krsna. (end)