Morning Walk Conversation Madhudvisa: …gave one flower to the prime minister of Australia. Prabhupada: Mm. Madhudvisa: He gave her a donation. Prabhupada: Mm. Aksayananda: How much did he give? Madhudvisa: I don’t know how much he gave, but he gave a donation. Aksayananda: Did he get a book? Madhudvisa: Yes, she gave him our magazine. Devotee (1): (indistinct) Madhudvisa: There was no security. Prabhupada: Why? Madhudvisa: There was no security around him. He just was standing there on the sidewalk out in front of one hotel after this luncheon. Prabhupada: Mm. Madhudvisa: And she just walked up to him and “Oh, this is a flower for you,” pinned it on his lapel. Prabhupada: Mm. So he has no personal guard? Madhudvisa: He had some guard, but it was not very strict security, there was no… It’s not like in America, where the president is very…, his life is very jeopardized all the time. (pause) Prabhupada: It is not their fault. The Western civilization is like that. Now you have to make a thorough change. The persons from the ecclesiastical order, they are also so polluted, they are sanctioning homosex, abortion. What can be done for the common man? Madhudvisa: I was reading in the paper the other day, how the Catholic church has drastically declined in the last ten years. Prabhupada: They must decline. Madhudvisa: They are losing one billion dollars a year in donations because they cannot… Prabhupada: They have to starve, not a single paisa donation. By law should be prohibited. No donation should be (indistinct). Pancadravida: They used to be very strong. Everybody had to give ten percent of their wages. Prabhupada: Oh. Madhudvisa: We can see just…, in our society that we have bought so many Catholic properties… Prabhupada: Hm. Madhudvisa: …already. For our temples. In Toronto, I think, we bought a Catholic church, and Montreal and Australia also, that was Catholic property. They are selling all their property off because they cannot afford to maintain. Pancadravida: Still in South America the people are Catholic and pious… Prabhupada: (indistinct) we wanted to purchase a convent… Madhudvisa: Yes. Prabhupada: How dilapidated. Madhudvisa: How envious they were. We wanted to purchase the convent, and they said they would sell us only if they could tear down the church. They wouldn’t sell it to us unless they could tear down the church. Passers-by: Hare Krsna. Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. Madhudvisa: It would have been a big defeat if they had sold us that church and we moved in. Devotee (1): (indistinct) …United States, they have taken eight million Catholics in Philadelphia. Just before the time of our Rathayatra I think… Pancadravida: When they took Radha-Damodara down to Mexico, all the Catholics thought it was Virgin Mary and Jesus, and they all came to offer their obeisances. (laughter) Prabhupada: Which way I shall go? This way? Devotee (2): This way, Srila Prabhupada. [break] Lokanatha: Last time there was a big crowd to hear you, Prabhupada—the Christians. Prabhupada: Yes. Lokanatha: And you mentioned they were clapping for a long, long time after hearing you speak. Prabhupada: Not long, long time, but… Madhudvisa, you remember that Catholic… Madhudvisa: Yes, they asked you about St. Francis, about him chanting to the dogs and the trees and the birds. And you said, “That is actually God-realization. Samah sarvesu bhutesu.” Prabhupada: And when they asked about Christ, and “He’s our guru.” Madhudvisa: You started your main lecture off there, “Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name.” And then you went on to explain about the holy name. Prabhupada: Hm, (indistinct) are here. Why is it? Some wood. [break] …grow foodgrains, simple living. Devotee (1): The house is there, under the trees.(?) Prabhupada: Yes. (aside:) You have got this card. Pusta Krsna: In the Western countries they would call this primitive. Prabhupada: They do not know what is civilization, that is there. The difficulty is they have no education about human civilization. Bahir-artha-manina. They are simply captivated by the external energy, bodily conception of life. They do not know what is the aim of life. This is Western civilization. Na te viduh svartha-gatim hi visnum [SB 7.5.31]. This is not Western, this is the demonic civilization. They do not know what is the aim of life. Our…, the material atmosphere, they’re not happy, they’re failing always, missing the real point. Pusta Krsna: The people that live in the cities think that the farmers work so hard. Prabhupada: And these rascals rise early in the morning and start their car to go to the office, five hours coming and going, and eight hours working there… Lokanatha: Again in the evening they have to drive back. [break] Pancadravida: …I saw that these big men, they were taking so many pep pills during the day to do their work, and in the evening they had to take tranquilizers to go to sleep. Prabhupada: Yes, I have seen so, so many advertisements. One has to take at least five to six types of. Pancadravida: No peace of mind. Madhudvisa: In this way the Kali-yuga will progress, and they’ll eat less and less food and take more pills, and they will think it is advancement. Prabhupada: Mm. Yes. Madhudvisa: Housewives think like that already. They take some pills, and they become very slim and they don’t have to eat so much. They just smoke cigarettes and drink coffee and take pills. And they’re saving money, they think. They don’t have to buy so much food, and they’re able to remain slim and trim. So in Kali-yuga, as the food supply runs out, so people won’t notice. Lokanatha: Srimad-Bhagavatam says they will be starving. Prabhupada: Mm? Lokanatha: As Kali-yuga advances, they’re mentioning one time, there will be durbhiksa, means not even bhiksa will be given to sadhus. Prabhupada: Yes, not even bhiksa will be available. I don’t think bhiksa is available in Western countries, eh? Pusta Krsna: No. Pancadravida: Bhiksa? Meaning begging for food? No, they will arrest you. (Prabhupada chuckles) Prabhupada: Arrest. Pancadravida: Yes, begging is against the law. [break] Madhudvisa: …alms is very elevated. In Western countries, it is a crime. It’s written, “Begging alms.” That’s one crime that they charge the devotees on sometimes. Prabhupada: Electricity is coming? Lokanatha: Yes, these poles are meant for that. Pusta Krsna: I doubt, though, if these people can afford. Prabhupada: The government can. [break] Pancadravida: …go to beg rice or something, like we were doing for a food program, all the people slam the door in your face. [break] Pancadravida: …went to America, what was your idea of what would be your program when you got there? Prabhupada: This idea: I shall speak to don’t eat meat, and they’ll immediately kick me out. (laughter) That was my program. And I was going to say that “Don’t eat meat. No illicit sex,” and immediately they will kick me out. “All right.” I never thought that you would accept it. That is the idea of my poetry. That is sung, no? You have got that? Pusta Krsna: Yes. Prabhupada: And I was asking Krsna, “I do not know why You have brought me here. As soon as I will say these things, they will kick me out. What is Your program, I do not know.” (chuckles) Aksayananda: Everybody knows in their heart that actually these things are wrong. Lokanatha: You are so expert. For one year you did not mention those rules and regulations, I heard. Prabhupada: No, I simply said, “Come and join and chant.” Lokanatha: And when they developed higher taste, then you said, “Now no more meat-eating.” [break] Prabhupada: …simply man looks after the animals, that he’s strong and happy, they’ll get food grains, the cooperation, and both of them happy. But they’re not looking to that. They are trying to sell the grains and get more money, and purchase wine and enjoy. And when the animal will be unable to work, sell him to the slaughterhouse and get money. And for these sinful activities, they are suffering. Hari-sauri: Their idea is just to exploit. Prabhupada: Hah, yes. Everyone is trying to get more, and nature’s order is that you take only to maintain your body and soul together. That’s all. If you take more, then you are thief, you’ll be punished by the laws of nature. This is going on. Laws of nature are so fine that by material activities you’ll never be satisfied, and at the time of death, he’ll lament that “I could not satisfy my desires. Let me take…” “All right, take another body. Satisfy.” This is nature’s punishment. Karmana daiva netrena jantur dehopapattaye [SB 3.31.1]. Simple things. We desire, and nature will give you another body. maya-yantrarudhani. He’ll give you, “Ride on this car, you wanted, on this body.” And this… This is creation of maya. Isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese… [Bg. 18.61]. Krsna is there, orders maya, “He wants to enjoy life. Give him this body.” “Come on, here is a hog’s body, eat nicely, stool. Come on.” He did not like to eat prasadam. He wanted something rubbish. “All right, come here. Take this stool.” These things are going automatically. The same way, as you infect some disease, immediately the disease is there. You haven’t got to manufacture diseases. Because you have infected yourself with the disease germ, “Take this disease.” Therefore it is warned, anyabhilasita-sunyam [BRS 1.1.11], “Don’t desire anything except Krsna’s service.” Then you are immune. Otherwise you have to take birth. The Mayavadi philosophers, they take the Absolute Truth void, so they have no good desires, again they come to material desires. Lokanatha: They want to be desireless. Prabhupada: That is not possible. Madhudvisa: If the Mayavadis don’t believe in the difference between the soul and the Supersoul, then how can they… What is their explanation of reincarnation? Prabhupada: They say that this is not incarnation, it is maya. Just like the sky is covered in a pot, and as soon as the pot breaks, the sky mixes with the big sky. That’s all. That is their theory. Madhudvisa: So therefore they say God is covered. Prabhupada: Not God. You are covered. Pancadravida: But you are God, they say. Prabhupada: So you are God, but you are covered by this body. So as soon as the body is finished, you mix with. Just like you take one pot and you take water. The water is there, but if you break this pot, the water comes and mixes with. Pancadravida: Then what is their reason for not becoming the biggest rascal? Why not become the biggest rascal? The pot’s going to break anyway. What difference does it make? Why not become a big rascal and enjoy? Madhudvisa: Because the Mayavadis, they also perform some austerity and tapasya. Prabhupada: Just to break the pot. That is their (indistinct) Madhudvisa: But what is the breaking of the pot? Lokanatha: The pot doesn’t refer to the body but the illusion. They want to get rid of not the body but the illusion. Prabhupada: No, illusion in this sense, that I am covered by the pot, it will break or I shall break, and when it is broken then there is no more pot. I become one with the sky. Madhudvisa: So why should you endeavor for it? It’s going to happen anyway. Prabhupada: To break it as soon as possible. (laughter) Pancadravida: That doesn’t make any sense. “Crackpot philosophy.” Madhudvisa: If there’s no individuality, I can’t understand how can there be any desire for… Prabhupada: No, there is individuality, but these people do not understand it, because… In the Bhagavad-gita, acchedyam. It is not that part is taken. The accedya. Because spirit cannot be cut into pieces, and while it is in piece, either you take it in part or something else, that is eternal. It is not that by the maya we have become piece. Yes. That is not maya. It is piece. All right, sanatana, mamaivamso jiva-bhutah sanatanah [Bg. 15.7], eternally that piece. Lokanatha: They did not take that to mean the constitutional position of the living entity. Prabhupada: Yes, they do not know. Therefore they are less intelligent. They are individual, but artificially they are thinking, “I shall become one.” Pusta Krsna: Srila Prabhupada, the karmis may argue that to become desireless is against the natural order. Because we see that right from the beginning of our life we’re desiring so many things. Prabhupada: Desireless. When he will desire less, you convince. They’re always desiring. Pusta Krsna: Oh, yes. Prabhupada: Then where is desireless? Pusta Krsna: But we’re saying anyabhilasita-sunyam jnana-karmady anavrtam [BRS 1.1.11]. Prabhupada: Anya, anya means anyatha. You are servant, you should always desire how to serve Krsna. That is your natural. And if you don’t want to serve, that is anyatha. Anyabhilasa. That is anyabhilasa. Anya means other, abhilasa means desire. So everyone has got desire, but that desire should be natural, according to position. But if you desire something else, nonsense, then you suffer. That… Caitanya Mahaprabhu said jivera svarupa haya nitya-krsna-dasa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. You are eternal servant of Krsna, so you desire only how to serve Him. Why you are desiring otherwise? They will suffer. We are desiring, “I shall become God,” “I shall become one with God,” “I shall become this, I shall become…” So many hundreds and thousands. So that you have to stop. Because you are servant, you should desire how to serve Krsna. That is your natural… Eh? Just like in your country the women, they are thinking of equal rights. Eh? And how you can equal rights? You have to become pregnant. So you become pregnant and take care of the child; that is your duty. In India still, you’ll find they are happy. And now they are, “No, we shall be equal with the men.” And how you’ll stop your pregnancy? And that they do not think. So they’re thinking that “We shall not be pregnant, and if we become pregnant we shall kill, and we shall have equal rights with the men.” This is going on. Madhudvisa: They say they may become pregnant and have children, but the men should take care of the children, equally. Prabhupada: Why? Why you should take? You are meant for taking… The child does not go to the father for being taken care. It goes to the mother. Even animals. There are so many chicken, hens, they go after the mother. Hari-sauri: They get milk from the mother, not from the father. Prabhupada: Yes. How to stop it? Lokanatha: How could father feed even the child? Prabhupada: Just see, in all there are so many husbandless girls, and the children have not gone with the husbands, to the man. They are after the mother. How you’ll have equal rights? They cannot. At this your heart will cry, “Oh, I have left my children, I am unhappy.” That is… Just like our Hari-sauri’s grandmother’s advice to his mother to kill him. He said. And she refused. This is natural inclination. How… Artificially they are thinking like that, violating nature’s law. Therefore they must suffer. As soon as you break ahankara-vimudhatma kartaham iti manyate [Bg. 3.27]. These rascals, on account of being misled by misconception of life, ahankara, false ahankara, kartaham, I can do everything. Any little pinch of nature’s law, if you break, you’ll suffer. Daivi hy esa gunamayi mama maya duratyaya [Bg. 7.14]. You cannot escape. But still they’re thinking, “We’re independent.” That is ahankara-vimudhatma, by false prestige, by false identification. He is (indistinct) and he’s thinking so many nonsense. Ahankara-vimudhatma. Everything will be explained in Bhagavad-gita. So try to explain. That is Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s order, yare dekha, tare kaha, ‘krsna-upadesa [Cc. Madhya 7.128].’ Bas, finished, “You become a guru.” The trouble(?) is there. You haven’t got to manufacture your ideas. Just like I’m quoting from Krsna’s preaching. Lokanatha: They take objection when we preach. They say, “Have you seen God or Krsna?” We haven’t seen God, how could we speak about God? Sometimes they take objection. Prabhupada: Very good. You have not seen your grandfather, why do you take his will? To inherit the money. You have not seen your grandfather. You rascal, you are very much anxious to take his money, according to his will. What is the answer? You have not seen your grandfather, so why you take his will? Eh? What is his answer? Rascal while taking money: “I will take my grandfather’s will.” Just see. You have to learn how to capture the rascals. [break] Jayadvaita: …living here for nine years but he doesn’t know who God is. Prabhupada: This is direction? Jayadvaita: Yes. Passer-by: Hare Krsna. Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. Jaya, jaya. This is the difference: he is living here nine years, he does not. And here, cultivator, he knows how to offer obeisances. Where he is living? Jayadvaita: I’m not sure exactly. I met him on Gopinath Bazaar. He’s living with some gentleman. He said that he came to Vrndavana nine years ago and he met this gentleman and took up studying with him. And he’s reading all Vedic books, Atharva Veda, Yajur Veda, like that, but he doesn’t know… Prabhupada: What is God. Madhudvisa: Has he seen our books? Prabhupada: How he is wasting his time. Jayadvaita: Yes. Lokanatha: Vedesu durlabham. Prabhupada: Adurlabham atma-bhaktau. If he would have approached a devotee, he’d have known this long ago. That man must be Mayavadi, with whom he is associating. Pancadravida: They cannot give anything. Prabhupada: Mayavadi-bhasya sunile haya sarva-nasa, finished—his spiritual progress is finished if he associates with a Mayavadi. Madhudvisa: It says in the Caitanya-caritamrta, even if we look upon the face of a pasandi, we should jump in the river with all our clothes on to become immediately purified, what to speak of giving any aural reception to them. But then again we see that Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu listened, you know, attentively for so many hours to Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya and also Prakasananda Sarasvati. How is it can we understand…? Prabhupada: Just to see how the animal is jumping. (to passers-by:) Hare Krsna. Jaya, jaya. (chuckles) Just like a fish is given freedom, even if he’s caught up by the trap. It is like that. Madhudvisa: So Lord Caitanya had him on the line all the time. Prabhupada: Lord Caitanya was waiting, “Let the rascal go on speaking. How long he can speak?” (laughs) Hari-sauri: He just waited till he dried up. Prabhupada: Jaya. He’s foolish. He knows that he has got some limited stock; it will be finished very soon, so “Let him finish, then I shall capture.” That is Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s policy. Madhudvisa: But should we take that example or…? Prabhupada: Yes. Why not? Madhudvisa: We can also listen to the Mayavadis and then defeat them like that? Prabhupada: If you are so qualified like Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Madhudvisa: (laughs) Otherwise we should… Prabhupada: Otherwise you will be captured. Madhudvisa: Otherwise we shouldn’t listen. Prabhupada: No. Jayadvaita: In America that’s called giving someone enough rope to hang himself. Prabhupada: Mm. Pancadravida: In South India, when we were down there, we had to do that. We listened to them first and then took their money. Madhudvisa: But we also should defeat them. Pancadravida: Taking their money is defeating them. Lokanatha: Srila Prabhupada, what is the position of vrajavasis, those who are living in Vrndavana now? What happens to them next life? Prabhupada: Yes. Simply by living, if they do not commit any sinful, they’ll go back to home. Simply by living. Without committing any sinful activities. Always remember Krsna, this is Krsna’s land, man-mana bhava mad-bhakto. That will deliver them. Madhudvisa: They don’t need a spiritual master? Prabhupada: Yes. Spiritual master is always needed. Chadiya vaisnava-seva nistara payeche keba. Without abiding by the orders of spiritual master and serving him, nobody can be. Otherwise rascal. He has accepted one rascal spiritual master, and he cannot understand what is God, nine years, because he did not accept spiritual master. Hari-sauri: So all these local vrajavasis, they all accept… Prabhupada: No, vrajavasis, they are… Generally, naturally, they are Krsna conscious. Otherwise how is this illiterate farmer, he is offering? This is natural. Pancadravida: But he has no spiritual master. Prabhupada: Eh? Pancadravida: He has a spiritual master? Prabhupada: No, no, he has a spiritual master, yes. And even without spiritual master they have already elevated to Krsna consciousness. Pancadravida: So they will go back home? Prabhupada: Oh, yes, because spiritual master is within, caitya-guru. Lokanatha: You said one time Krsna is there. Prabhupada: Mm. Krsna-guru-krpa. (end)
with His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada
April 8, 1976, Mayapur