Room Conversation
with His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada
January 15, 1977, Allahabad

Prabhupada: …in Western countries, fifty years. Twenty years in Durban and thirty years in England.

Gurudasa: Twenty years in…?

Prabhupada: In Durban. South Africa. Fighting with General Smuts to give Indians equal rights. They are very conservative. At heart they want “Indians may go away.” They don’t want Indians. And if they want, it is for their own benefit. The Indians have given some place to develop as marketplace, and as soon as they develop, they ask, “Go there. Leave this place. Go away, other place.” This is going on. And they know very well, politicians. The Indians have been given a place where nearby there is a slaughterhouse. They know Indians are sentimental, at least for cow slaughtering. Whole night slaughtering is going on, and there are screaming of the animals. Whole night. Even those who are meat-eaters, they will be disturbed. So the purpose is that “Let them live near the slaughterhouse, so by sentiment they are disgusted, leave this country.” They don’t want the Asians, especially Indians, and especially due to Gandhi, because they know, due to Gandhi… At least Gandhi organized the public opinion against the Britishers by this noncooperation movement. They were not affected by the… Affected in this way, that public opinion was against them. That is also organization. Otherwise Gandhi’s method was not harmful to the…, this noncooperation, nonviolent. That did not help. But he influenced the public opinion against them.

Ramesvara: All over the world.

Prabhupada: Yes. That Hitler also did. Phansa lage dubudh bage: “If five men combine together, even the ghost will go away.” (laughs) So everyone was against the Britishers. How they can keep their…? And nature’s law also. They exploited the whole world for the benefit of few persons in London, and that is very bad.

Gurudasa: You told me they wanted to be paid in gold by the Home Bill just to deplete the economy.

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Home Bill. Because I was student of economics. So Home Bill. Home Bill means all the Englishmen were engaged in India, either government, railway, industry, factory, and so on, so on, so on. Whatever… They have got some charges. So all the bills were sent to London, and they made a Home Bill. Their home is in England, so they won’t take payment here. They’ll take payment at home. And the government there, they’ll present the whole bill to India and debit India’s account in gold. That means, other words, all the payments which were to be made to the Englishmen in India, they were paid at home in gold.

Gurudasa: So that means they would spend at home instead of India for the benefit of themselves.

Prabhupada: Yes. No Englishmens were allowed to domicile in India. No. Strictly. But if… As soon as they make home, it will be America. The Americans made their home in America, so a war of independence was… They have experienced that, so did not allow the Englishmen to make India home. “You come here, work and take your payment. Can’t come down.”(?) This was the policy, Home Bill. And India’s gold was kept in London. So gradually all the gold finished. Very, very crooked policy they followed. They… They… In Muhammadan period there was no such peaceful exploitation. These Muhammadans, they wanted to become lumma, kukum(?). Bas. That’s all. They were satisfied. But their princely expenditure was done in India. When Shah Jahan constructed the Taj Mahal, heavy expenditure, but the payment was received by the Indians. And here a railway, very smart railway bridge is constructed that… The payment was paid in England. This was the policy. Every even screw, iron screw, was imported from England.

Gurudasa: Yes. India was dependent on tea and cloth from England.

Prabhupada: But tea they also produce it.

Gurudasa: Was it introduced by the English?

Prabhupada: Yes. India did not know what is tea. They started the tea gardens, and they recruited labors from India. We have seen in our childhood that Mahatma Gandhi Road. When I was standing on the gate, five hundred, six hundred laborers recruited from Bihar. Bihar and Orissa, these two provinces very poor. Even all these colonies, just like Trinidad… Where is Englishmen? If the laborers and Indians were sent… Therefore we find in Mauritius, in Africa, so many Indians. Their kingdom, first of all it was conquered by Indian soldiers. Then, when it was to be organized—Indian coolies, Indian laborers, Indian guards. They have got men and money, but they expanded Empire. So I am doing the same business: American money, American… (laughs) I am also a great politician.

Gurudasa: Home Bill.

Prabhupada: Yes. But I am not for home. I am for the whole world. It is not… I have no such idea (laughs) that “I shall exploit American men and money for India.” That is not my ambition. For the benefit of the whole world.

Gurudasa: You are doing “Back to Home” bill.

Prabhupada: Yes. Jaya. But actually I am exploiting American men and money, from this point of view. But what can I do? I do not make any national distinction, either American or Indian.

Gurudasa: You are not exploiting…

Ramesvara: Spiritual Communism.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Gurudasa: They were exploiting; you are uplifting.

Prabhupada: Yes. This is train?

Ramesvara: Yes.

Gurudasa: There’s no hurry. Also, if they could only spend their money in England, it means they wouldn’t care so much for the country. They wouldn’t care for India so much if they were going to spend the money in England.

Prabhupada: No, practically I am spending America’s money in a proper way. They would have used it in a different way.

Ramesvara: Japanese money also.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Gurudasa: No distinction. Any money will do. [break]

Prabhupada: There is no exploitation. America has enough money, and India has got enough culture. So they should combine for the benefit of the whole world.

Ramesvara: Now American culture is highly developed sense gratification.

Prabhupada: That is always. Now they’ve got enough money, but how they will utilize? That is the only source, outlet.

Ramesvara: So as the Krsna consciousness movement increases its influence, then American culture will gradually change?

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. As you have changed. You are American. Why not others?

Ramesvara: So the nightclubs and the cinema, this will be gradually…

Prabhupada: Not required.

Ramesvara: …given up.

Prabhupada: They simply produce anxiety. When they will come to understand that they will get better engagement, automatically these nonsense things will be stopped.

Ramesvara: Television also.

Prabhupada: They can be utilized.

Gurudasa: Yes, they can be utilized.

Prabhupada: In a different way.

Ramesvara: Formerly civilization did not have so many technological devices.

Prabhupada: This is not civilization. They do not know what is civilization. Suppose a mechanic has constructed this car far better than me. That is not civilization. A good craftsmanship. If you do not know what is the aim of life, what is your duty, then what is your civilization? That they do not know. The first defect of the civilization is that they are taking account of these fifty or sixty years of life. Life is continuation. That they do not know. This life, I am getting this facility of this car; next life I become a tree. What is the advantage after fifty years, if you are going to be a tree, stand up for five hundred years? This philosophy they do not know. Tatha dehantara-praptih. Here is the defect, that “You will have to change this body.” They have become so dullheaded. “Oh, what is there? I change or die? It doesn’t matter. Let me enjoy.” This is the difficulty.

Ramesvara: Krsna conscious government must be monarchy. A real Krsna conscious government…

Prabhupada: No. Why monarchy? You can continue democracy, but the legislators should be first-class men who has knowledge, not these rascals.

Ramesvara: But the real problem is the businessmen, because they can influence the mass of people by advertising.

Prabhupada: The mass of people should be educated. Just like we are educating, “No meat-eating.” So automatically the meat-selling, slaughterhouse will be stopped.

Ramesvara: There must be some controls. Otherwise…

Prabhupada: Yes. Control must be there, that… This is very easy. The state cannot support or maintain slaughterhouse. If you want to eat meat, you kill animal at your home. But state cannot. So mass sinful activities, state cannot. So if the legislators and the head of the state are Krsna conscious, they will understand the importance of this. So they can stop slaughterhouse. And the public agitation? “You can slaughter animal at your home. You have got the liberty, but state cannot maintain.” What is the wrong there?

Ramesvara: What about buying books? There are so many books with nonsense ideas. That will have to be controlled also.

Prabhupada: Yes. If the government is Krsna conscious, they can control everything.

Ramesvara: That means the government will have direct controls over all different fields of business.

Prabhupada: It has already. It has already.

Ramesvara: But in America the government cannot tell the publishing house, “You can only have Krsna conscious books.” They are tolerating books about sex, books about crime…

Prabhupada: No, if you educate public that these are nasty things, in the school, colleges, where government has control, then automatically sale will be stopped.

Gurudasa: Naturally.

Prabhupada: If you educate people, “Don’t waste your time,” then they will stop. They are controlling in Russia, publication.

Ramesvara: Yes, and China also.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Ramesvara: But that’s why I said… That is not possible, it seems, in a democracy. They have to have dictatorship.

Prabhupada: No, democracy means people elected. If public wants that the election should be amongst the Krsna conscious person, then it will be done. One man’s ruling will not be possible unless there is dictatorship.

Gurudasa: Consciousness must change.

Prabhupada: Yes. (train sounds) So this is the train.

Ramesvara: Yes. Still, in some people there will always be some greed how to make money by sinful means.

Prabhupada: No, everyone is greedy. Therefore education required, spiritual. They should be greedy for Krsna. That is Krsna consciousness. Param drstva nivartate. When they will see this is better position, so their greediness will be for Krsna and other thing will be left away.

Ramesvara: And the state will not tolerate…

Prabhupada: Four classes of sinful activities should be stopped by the state.

Ramesvara: No manufacturing liquor, cigarettes.

Prabhupada: No.

Ramesvara: That must be stopped.

Gurudasa: No supporting slaughterhouses.

Ramesvara: But you said they can do it at their own home.

Prabhupada: Liberty. If you like, you can do at your home.

Ramesvara: They can make their own alcohol.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Gurudasa: Because you cannot stop anyway. [break]

Prabhupada: What is Thela?(?)

Gurudasa: He said that we should drive a little forward. [break] (train whistle, sounds of train starting)

Hari-sauri: (devotees attempting to get luggage on train before it starts) Those two go with the women, actually. Leave them down…

Abhirama: Where should I leave them?

Hari-sauri: Arundhati. No, leave them in the car.

Abhirama: Who is this for? Prabhupada’s? (doors opening and closing)

Gurudasa: No, they won’t leave.

Abhirama: Please, nobody come in the hallway unless necessary. We’ve got to get everything in.

Hari-sauri: This is for… This is not coming in here.

Ramesvara: Not in this part. That should be stored.

Abhirama: Just stick this in here right now.

Hari-sauri: Prabhupada’s case still has to come. Prabhupada’s suitcase is not on.

Devotee: Would everyone get out of the room? (voices, shuffling)

Hari-sauri: Is that your typewriter?

Devotee: Jaya Srila Prabhupada.

Ramesvara: Yes, you’d better get off.

Abhirama: Stop the train.

Gurudasa: Hare Krsna.

Prabhupada: Oh. Starting?

Gurudasa: Is it moving?

Ramesvara: Gurudasa, you better just jump right off. It’s going to start any second.

Prabhupada: No, no.

Gurudasa: I think we’re stopping the train. We stopped the train.

Hari-sauri: We didn’t even move, did we?

Gurudasa: Well, we started to, but everyone…

Hari-sauri: We started to move.

Gurudasa: All the devotees pulled these things.

Ramesvara: This I’m putting underneath here, Hari-sauri.

Hari-sauri: Where’s Abhirama? He should go see that Mr. Machoris right away.

Bhavananda: Fulfills all desires. (voices, shuffling)

Gurudasa: So after the Mela I’m going to Vrndavana to the roots. Then after that I’m going to Poland.

Ramesvara: These buckets don’t need to be in here.

Hari-sauri: No, actually I can handle it. Just let everything sit for now, and I’ll get it. (end)