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MW MAY 1976-02-09 Varnashram Dharma--How Necessary
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ANNOUNCER: The following is
a morning walk conversation,
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with His Divine Grace
A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda,
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recorded on the 9th of February,
1976, in Māyāpura, India.
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PRABHUPĀDA: …So this
should be mentioned.
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It is not only a temple, but a
planetarium according to Bhāgavatam,
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where which planet is situated,
where is Vaikuṇṭhaloka,
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- where is Goloka Vṛndāvana, where is Mahar…
- DEVOTEES: Wow!
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- TAMĀLA KṚṢṆA: One of the real
planetariums like in the West.
- Yes!
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DEVOTEE: Oh! boy!
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- JAYAPATĀKĀ: That’s what
I told them, Prabhupāda…
- Yes.
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…that this is not a temple; this
is like a big cultural exposition,
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- museum, planetarium.
- Yes, planetary system.
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Mention there. [splice]
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BHAVĀNANDA: My father…
In those planetariums,
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they use a machine in the
center that shoots out light.
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- My father helped to invent that,
so he could, we could probably…
- So bring your father.
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Father and son, both together.
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- He is… Where he is?
- In America.
- So call him.
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- He’ll not come?
- I don’t think so, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
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- Demon?
- No, no; he reads your Bhagavad-gītā
every night.
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- Then why he'll not come?
- I think he’s too much attached
to my mother.
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Your mother is not old enough?
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What is the age of your mother?
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- Sixty-eight.
- Oh, still she is attractive?
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A girl of sixty-eight?
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That’s nice; very good husband.
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- And what is your father’s age?
- Sixty-eight.
- And mother?
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- Sixty-eight.
- Same age.
- Same.
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American system.
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No, here also, some cases.
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Gandhi’s wife was one year
older than Gandhi, yes.
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Kaustubha Gandhi, she
was seventeen years old,
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and Gandhi was sixteen years
old, and they were married.
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- There are many cases.
- That was arranged by their parents,
or they did it themselves?
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Yes, by their parents.
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Except in Bengal, in other provinces
they do not take much care of the age.
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Generally the bridegroom is older;
boy is older than the girl. [break]
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…was married, he
was eleven years old.
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HṚDAYĀNANDA: Eleven years old.
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Yes, and his wife, my mother-
in-law, was seven years.
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Dr. Rajendra Prasada, the president, he
was married when he was eight years old.
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How old was his wife?
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He was sleeping.
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The marriage party goes
to the bride’s house.
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So it was to be… The time fixed was
at twelve o’clock or one o’clock.
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So the bridegroom was sleeping.
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So all the men made:
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“Oh, get up, get up, you have to be
married, now you have to be married,
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get up, get up!”
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- He didn’t understand.
- He did not know what is marriage.
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“Get up, get up, you
have to be married now.”
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So in such cases they would
live separately, though?
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- Oh, yes.
- Till they grew older.
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- Until the girl is twelve, fourteen.
- Hmm.
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She must be…,
puberty period; then…
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- But still, they know who
they are married to.
- Oh, yes.
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- So they don’t have any anxiety.
- Yes. [break]
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…age was at that
time eleven years.
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So she came to live at
the age of thirteen years,
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and at fourteen years
she gave birth to a child.
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How old were you,
Prabhupāda, when you…
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- Eh?
- How old were you when you got married?
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I was student, so we
were living separately.
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When she was thirteen years old,
after puberty, then she was at…
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But there are many mothers still —
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the difference between the child,
first child, and mother, twelve years.
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There are many mothers; at twelve
years they gave birth to a child,
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especially in Bengal.
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- In America that is considered very horrible.
- Why?
- Catastrophe.
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All my sisters were married
within twelve years.
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My second sister, she became
twelve years, and I heard my mother
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become so disturbed: “Oh,
this girl is not being married.
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I shall commit suicide.”
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- TAMĀLA KṚṢṆA: At twelve!
- Twelve years.
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And she was given to a boy, my
brother-in-law, for the second marriage.
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Means that my brother-
in-law lost his first wife,
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and still, he was
twenty-one years old.
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My sister was twelve years old and
brother-in-law was twenty-one.
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In the śāstra… I do not know exactly
what is that śāstra, but they say,
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that if the girl before
marriage has menstruation,
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then the father has to
eat that menstrual liquid.
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Means it is, very strict.
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And if the father is not living, then
the elder brother has to eat. [break]
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…[indistinct] of getting the girl
married, rests on the father.
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In the absence of the
father, the eldest brother.
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The girl must be married; that is it.
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It is called dāya, kanyā-dāya.
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Dāya.
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Dāya, dāya means
legally inheritance.
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That is called dāya.
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Just like your father’s money
you get automatically.
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So similarly, kanyā-dāya means to get the
girl married is a dāya; you cannot refuse it.
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It is incumbent, you must do it.
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So many of our, the girls in our
society, they have reached that age,
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but they are not getting married.
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No, your society is different;
now it is here also.
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I mean in ISKCON, in our society.
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ISKCON is not going to be social reformer,
but as far as possible, we can help.
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Our main business is how to
make everyone Kṛṣṇa conscious.
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That is our business.
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We cannot take up, but if possible, we
can take up all the system of varṇāśrama.
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If varṇāśrama is neglected, then how can
there be proper functioning of society?
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No, if the society chants Hare
Kṛṣṇa seriously, then it is all right.
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Never mind whatever is done.
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It doesn’t matter.
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pāpī tāpī jata chilo, hari-nāme uddhārilo
[Hari Hari Biphale -Narottama das Thakura]
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This is the power
of hari-saṅkīrtana.
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If one is absorbed in Kṛṣṇa
consciousness, all benefit is there.
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So long in the bodily concept of life,
we require this varṇāśrama-dharma.
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- Otherwise there is no necessity.
- Yes.
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Caitanya Mahāprabhu you have read
in the eighth chapter, madhya-līlā,
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talk between Rāmānanda Rāya
and Caitanya Mahāprabhu?
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So, “Perfectional life how begins?”
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This question was raised by Caitanya
Mahāprabhu, and Rāmānanda replied,
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“It begins with the varṇāśrama-
dharma, regulated social life.”
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- He rejected that.
- Ah, not rejected.
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“Yes, it is not very important.”
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Eho bāhya: “This is external.”
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Āge kaha āra: “If you
know something more?”
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So the varṇāśrama-dharma
is a good help, undoubtedly,
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but it is not important
for Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
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Otherwise how could I start this
movement in the Western country?
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There was no varṇāśrama-dharma.
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But that did not
hamper my movement.
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Now people are surprised: “How these
people have become such great devotees.”
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So it was not based on
varṇāśrama-dharma.
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No, because the whole
movement is spiritual.
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It starts from the spiritual
platform, ahaṁ brahmāsmi.
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jīvera svarūpa haya nitya-kṛṣṇa-dāsa
[Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]
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[samāś]ritā ye pada-pallava-plavaṁ
mahat-padaṁ puṇya-yaśo murāreḥ
[SB 10.15.48]
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bhavāmbudhir vatsa-padaṁ param
[SB 10.15.48]
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Now just like here is a gap.
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So you can go by the bridge, and if
you can jump over, that is also going.
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That is also going.
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So to become Kṛṣṇa
conscious means,
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to jump over to the spiritual
platform immediately.
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And this varṇāśrama-dharma,
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sannyāsa, varṇa-tyāga, karma-
tyāga, these are different steps only.
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But if you become Kṛṣṇa
conscious seriously,
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then you jump over all these
steps; you go immediately.
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That lift and the staircase.
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By staircase you go, step by step.
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By lift you can go
immediately, faster.
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- Even some of these women, they’re
not married, but they are serving Kṛṣṇa.
- Yes.
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striyo śūdrāḥ tathā vaiśyās
[Bg. 9.32]
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This striya, generally they take
it, “Even she is prostitute,” striya.
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te ’pi yānti parāṁ gatim [Bg
9.32]: “They can also go,
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back to home, back to Godhead.”
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Māṁ hi pārtha… If he takes Kṛṣṇa very
seriously, then everything is possible.
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No impediment;
ahaituky apratihatā.
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Kṛṣṇa, devotional service is so
strong, that it cannot be checked,
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by any material impediments.
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The smārtas, they
are thinking like that,
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“How these mlecchas and yavanas
can become a brāhmaṇa?”
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But they do not know that by Kṛṣṇa
consciousness one can jump over.
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māyām etāṁ taranti te
[Bg. 7.14]
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daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī
mama māyā duratyayā
[Bg. 7.14]
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Māyā is very strong; therefore
there are gradual process.
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Varṇāśrama-dharma, karma-
tyāga, this, that, so many things,
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pious activities, rituals.
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But this is the process, step
by step, to cross over māyā.
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But Kṛṣṇa said,
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mām eva ye prapadyante
māyām etāṁ taranti te
[Bg. 7.14]
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Anyone who surrenders to Kṛṣṇa
sincerely, immediately he crosses over.
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As Kṛṣṇa says in another place,
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ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo
mokṣayiṣyāmi
[Bg. 18.66]
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“I’ll do immediately.”
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So māyā means pāpa.
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Unless one is sinful,
he cannot be in māyā.
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So if one surrenders, then he, means,
immediately crosses over māyā.
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So these smārta brāhmaṇas,
they consider this thing.
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They are thinking, “How a
person born in other families,
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they can become brāhmaṇa?”
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- So they have no faith in devotional service.
- No, they are… [splice]
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Then you come to Gītā’s instruction,
guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ.
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And Nārada Muni also says that
one must be qualified, not the birth.
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Just like this Mullik, and
we had the same gotra,
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- but the marriage cannot take
place, within the same family.
- Same gotra, in the same gotra.
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And the same title, De, and same gotra;
there will be same family; that is the proof.
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So then the same family,
there cannot be any marriage.
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sa-gotra;
sa-gotra-vivāha-niṣedha.
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So no member of your family could have
married someone in the Mullik family.
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No, there is another Mullik family.
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They are different from our family.
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- They are not De’s.
- They are not De’s; they are Sil’s.
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- Sil, their title is Sil.
- Oh Sil.
- Oh Sil.
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Sil Mullik and De Mullik;
there are two Mulliks.
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Their gotra is also different.
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So in the marriage, before
marriage taking place,
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one has to calculate whether they belong
to the same family, same disciplic…
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Then, if it is the same, the marriage will
not… Same blood will not be accepted.
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Same family means same blood;
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so throughout the whole world
same blood is not allowed, marriage.
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Yes, that’s going in other
places in the world too.
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- Ah? Yes.
- All over the world.
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They say that what will happen…
One thing that will happen,
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is that if there’s any… Of course,
this is scientists’ explanation.
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If there is any weakness
within the family line
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—that means bodily weakness,
mental weakness, or anything…
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No, even it is not weakness, it
will create weakness, same blood.
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The different blood will create some
incentive, different flow of blood.
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That is scientific.
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But who cares for that?
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- Nowadays…
- The Mohammedans, they accept the same blood.
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Therefore they are
not very intelligent.
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- They marry within their family.
- Yes, and uncle’s daughter.
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- Uncle’s daughter.
- Yes.
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The father and his brother, so
his daughter, his son can marry.
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00:16:28,140 --> 00:16:34,969
- First cousins.
- First cousins.
- First cousin, yes.
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There was some case of
that in the royalty in France,
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and they got some bad eh, some
bleeding disease from that, hemophilia.
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If they got any cut, then it would never
heal; it only bleeds until they died.
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So it is very scientific not to
get married of the same blood.
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Many people ask us
what gotra we are.
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You are acyuta-gotra.
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- acyuta-gotra?
- You can say acyuta-gotra.
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- Acyuta means never falls down.
- Never falls down.
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- Yes.
- There is such a gotra as that?
- Yes, acyuta-gotra.
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All devotees are… We are identified with
Kṛṣṇa’s family, acyuta-gotra. [break]
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…madhye rathaṁ sthāpaya
me acyuta [Bg 1.21]
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Acyuta is Kṛṣṇa.
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So Kṛṣṇa conscious man
means acyuta-gotra.
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