MW MAY 1976-02-09 Varnashram Dharma--How Necessary
ANNOUNCER: The following is a morning walk conversation,
with His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda,
recorded on the 9th of February, 1976, in Māyāpura, India.
PRABHUPĀDA: …So this should be mentioned.
It is not only a temple, but a planetarium according to Bhāgavatam,
where which planet is situated, where is Vaikuṇṭhaloka,
- where is Goloka Vṛndāvana, where is Mahar… - DEVOTEES: Wow!
- TAMĀLA KṚṢṆA: One of the real planetariums like in the West. - Yes!
DEVOTEE: Oh! boy!
- JAYAPATĀKĀ: That’s what I told them, Prabhupāda… - Yes.
…that this is not a temple; this is like a big cultural exposition,
- museum, planetarium. - Yes, planetary system.
Mention there. [splice]
BHAVĀNANDA: My father… In those planetariums,
they use a machine in the center that shoots out light.
- My father helped to invent that, so he could, we could probably… - So bring your father.
Father and son, both together.
- He is… Where he is? - In America. - So call him.
- He’ll not come? - I don’t think so, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
- Demon? - No, no; he reads your Bhagavad-gītā every night.
- Then why he'll not come? - I think he’s too much attached to my mother.
Your mother is not old enough?
What is the age of your mother?
- Sixty-eight. - Oh, still she is attractive?
A girl of sixty-eight?
That’s nice; very good husband.
- And what is your father’s age? - Sixty-eight. - And mother?
- Sixty-eight. - Same age. - Same.
American system.
No, here also, some cases.
Gandhi’s wife was one year older than Gandhi, yes.
Kaustubha Gandhi, she was seventeen years old,
and Gandhi was sixteen years old, and they were married.
- There are many cases. - That was arranged by their parents, or they did it themselves?
Yes, by their parents.
Except in Bengal, in other provinces they do not take much care of the age.
Generally the bridegroom is older; boy is older than the girl. [break]
…was married, he was eleven years old.
HṚDAYĀNANDA: Eleven years old.
Yes, and his wife, my mother- in-law, was seven years.
Dr. Rajendra Prasada, the president, he was married when he was eight years old.
How old was his wife?
He was sleeping.
The marriage party goes to the bride’s house.
So it was to be… The time fixed was at twelve o’clock or one o’clock.
So the bridegroom was sleeping.
So all the men made:
“Oh, get up, get up, you have to be married, now you have to be married,
get up, get up!”
- He didn’t understand. - He did not know what is marriage.
“Get up, get up, you have to be married now.”
So in such cases they would live separately, though?
- Oh, yes. - Till they grew older.
- Until the girl is twelve, fourteen. - Hmm.
She must be…, puberty period; then…
- But still, they know who they are married to. - Oh, yes.
- So they don’t have any anxiety. - Yes. [break]
…age was at that time eleven years.
So she came to live at the age of thirteen years,
and at fourteen years she gave birth to a child.
How old were you, Prabhupāda, when you…
- Eh? - How old were you when you got married?
I was student, so we were living separately.
When she was thirteen years old, after puberty, then she was at…
But there are many mothers still —
the difference between the child, first child, and mother, twelve years.
There are many mothers; at twelve years they gave birth to a child,
especially in Bengal.
- In America that is considered very horrible. - Why? - Catastrophe.
All my sisters were married within twelve years.
My second sister, she became twelve years, and I heard my mother
become so disturbed: “Oh, this girl is not being married.
I shall commit suicide.”
- TAMĀLA KṚṢṆA: At twelve! - Twelve years.
And she was given to a boy, my brother-in-law, for the second marriage.
Means that my brother- in-law lost his first wife,
and still, he was twenty-one years old.
My sister was twelve years old and brother-in-law was twenty-one.
In the śāstra… I do not know exactly what is that śāstra, but they say,
that if the girl before marriage has menstruation,
then the father has to eat that menstrual liquid.
Means it is, very strict.
And if the father is not living, then the elder brother has to eat. [break]
…[indistinct] of getting the girl married, rests on the father.
In the absence of the father, the eldest brother.
The girl must be married; that is it.
It is called dāya, kanyā-dāya.
Dāya.
Dāya, dāya means legally inheritance.
That is called dāya.
Just like your father’s money you get automatically.
So similarly, kanyā-dāya means to get the girl married is a dāya; you cannot refuse it.
It is incumbent, you must do it.
So many of our, the girls in our society, they have reached that age,
but they are not getting married.
No, your society is different; now it is here also.
I mean in ISKCON, in our society.
ISKCON is not going to be social reformer, but as far as possible, we can help.
Our main business is how to make everyone Kṛṣṇa conscious.
That is our business.
We cannot take up, but if possible, we can take up all the system of varṇāśrama.
If varṇāśrama is neglected, then how can there be proper functioning of society?
No, if the society chants Hare Kṛṣṇa seriously, then it is all right.
Never mind whatever is done.
It doesn’t matter.
pāpī tāpī jata chilo, hari-nāme uddhārilo [Hari Hari Biphale -Narottama das Thakura]
This is the power of hari-saṅkīrtana.
If one is absorbed in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, all benefit is there.
So long in the bodily concept of life, we require this varṇāśrama-dharma.
- Otherwise there is no necessity. - Yes.
Caitanya Mahāprabhu you have read in the eighth chapter, madhya-līlā,
talk between Rāmānanda Rāya and Caitanya Mahāprabhu?
So, “Perfectional life how begins?”
This question was raised by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and Rāmānanda replied,
“It begins with the varṇāśrama- dharma, regulated social life.”
- He rejected that. - Ah, not rejected.
“Yes, it is not very important.”
Eho bāhya: “This is external.”
Āge kaha āra: “If you know something more?”
So the varṇāśrama-dharma is a good help, undoubtedly,
but it is not important for Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Otherwise how could I start this movement in the Western country?
There was no varṇāśrama-dharma.
But that did not hamper my movement.
Now people are surprised: “How these people have become such great devotees.”
So it was not based on varṇāśrama-dharma.
No, because the whole movement is spiritual.
It starts from the spiritual platform, ahaṁ brahmāsmi.
jīvera svarūpa haya nitya-kṛṣṇa-dāsa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]
[samāś]ritā ye pada-pallava-plavaṁ mahat-padaṁ puṇya-yaśo murāreḥ [SB 10.15.48]
bhavāmbudhir vatsa-padaṁ param [SB 10.15.48]
Now just like here is a gap.
So you can go by the bridge, and if you can jump over, that is also going.
That is also going.
So to become Kṛṣṇa conscious means,
to jump over to the spiritual platform immediately.
And this varṇāśrama-dharma,
sannyāsa, varṇa-tyāga, karma- tyāga, these are different steps only.
But if you become Kṛṣṇa conscious seriously,
then you jump over all these steps; you go immediately.
That lift and the staircase.
By staircase you go, step by step.
By lift you can go immediately, faster.
- Even some of these women, they’re not married, but they are serving Kṛṣṇa. - Yes.
striyo śūdrāḥ tathā vaiśyās [Bg. 9.32]
This striya, generally they take it, “Even she is prostitute,” striya.
te ’pi yānti parāṁ gatim [Bg 9.32]: “They can also go,
back to home, back to Godhead.”
Māṁ hi pārtha… If he takes Kṛṣṇa very seriously, then everything is possible.
No impediment; ahaituky apratihatā.
Kṛṣṇa, devotional service is so strong, that it cannot be checked,
by any material impediments.
The smārtas, they are thinking like that,
“How these mlecchas and yavanas can become a brāhmaṇa?”
But they do not know that by Kṛṣṇa consciousness one can jump over.
māyām etāṁ taranti te [Bg. 7.14]
daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]
Māyā is very strong; therefore there are gradual process.
Varṇāśrama-dharma, karma- tyāga, this, that, so many things,
pious activities, rituals.
But this is the process, step by step, to cross over māyā.
But Kṛṣṇa said,
mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te [Bg. 7.14]
Anyone who surrenders to Kṛṣṇa sincerely, immediately he crosses over.
As Kṛṣṇa says in another place,
ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi [Bg. 18.66]
“I’ll do immediately.”
So māyā means pāpa.
Unless one is sinful, he cannot be in māyā.
So if one surrenders, then he, means, immediately crosses over māyā.
So these smārta brāhmaṇas, they consider this thing.
They are thinking, “How a person born in other families,
they can become brāhmaṇa?”
- So they have no faith in devotional service. - No, they are… [splice]
Then you come to Gītā’s instruction, guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ.
And Nārada Muni also says that one must be qualified, not the birth.
Just like this Mullik, and we had the same gotra,
- but the marriage cannot take place, within the same family. - Same gotra, in the same gotra.
And the same title, De, and same gotra; there will be same family; that is the proof.
So then the same family, there cannot be any marriage.
sa-gotra; sa-gotra-vivāha-niṣedha.
So no member of your family could have married someone in the Mullik family.
No, there is another Mullik family.
They are different from our family.
- They are not De’s. - They are not De’s; they are Sil’s.
- Sil, their title is Sil. - Oh Sil. - Oh Sil.
Sil Mullik and De Mullik; there are two Mulliks.
Their gotra is also different.
So in the marriage, before marriage taking place,
one has to calculate whether they belong to the same family, same disciplic…
Then, if it is the same, the marriage will not… Same blood will not be accepted.
Same family means same blood;
so throughout the whole world same blood is not allowed, marriage.
Yes, that’s going in other places in the world too.
- Ah? Yes. - All over the world.
They say that what will happen… One thing that will happen,
is that if there’s any… Of course, this is scientists’ explanation.
If there is any weakness within the family line
—that means bodily weakness, mental weakness, or anything…
No, even it is not weakness, it will create weakness, same blood.
The different blood will create some incentive, different flow of blood.
That is scientific.
But who cares for that?
- Nowadays… - The Mohammedans, they accept the same blood.
Therefore they are not very intelligent.
- They marry within their family. - Yes, and uncle’s daughter.
- Uncle’s daughter. - Yes.
The father and his brother, so his daughter, his son can marry.
- First cousins. - First cousins. - First cousin, yes.
There was some case of that in the royalty in France,
and they got some bad eh, some bleeding disease from that, hemophilia.
If they got any cut, then it would never heal; it only bleeds until they died.
So it is very scientific not to get married of the same blood.
Many people ask us what gotra we are.
You are acyuta-gotra.
- acyuta-gotra? - You can say acyuta-gotra.
- Acyuta means never falls down. - Never falls down.
- Yes. - There is such a gotra as that? - Yes, acyuta-gotra.
All devotees are… We are identified with Kṛṣṇa’s family, acyuta-gotra. [break]
…madhye rathaṁ sthāpaya me acyuta [Bg 1.21]
Acyuta is Kṛṣṇa.
So Kṛṣṇa conscious man means acyuta-gotra.
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