0 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:01,660 MW ROM 1974-05-24 Relief--Only for First-class Devotees 1 00:00:01,661 --> 00:00:04,230 ANNOUNCER: Next is a morning walk conversation, 2 00:00:04,231 --> 00:00:09,865 with His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, 3 00:00:09,866 --> 00:00:20,624 recorded on May 24th, 1974, in Rome, Italy. 4 00:00:20,625 --> 00:00:24,559 PRABHUPĀDA: Yes; that means man worship. 5 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:26,521 SATSVARŪPA: They deify a man. - Huh? 6 00:00:26,522 --> 00:00:29,132 He’s a man but the people make him as a god. 7 00:00:29,133 --> 00:00:31,201 Yes. 8 00:00:31,202 --> 00:00:33,848 They say that about Kṛṣṇa, that Kṛṣṇa was a man, 9 00:00:33,849 --> 00:00:39,543 and then later His followers deified Him. 10 00:00:39,544 --> 00:00:46,699 That man wrote that in that pamphlet, Dr. Bannerjee, in Delhi. 11 00:00:46,700 --> 00:01:03,573 Oh, he has said like that? 12 00:01:03,574 --> 00:01:09,505 avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā manuṣīṁ tanum āśritam [Bg. 9.11] 13 00:01:09,506 --> 00:01:13,515 So why they do not deify others? 14 00:01:13,516 --> 00:01:15,230 Only Kṛṣṇa. 15 00:01:15,231 --> 00:01:21,355 There were many big, big men. 16 00:01:21,356 --> 00:01:35,732 All the Pāṇḍavas were very big men. 17 00:01:35,733 --> 00:01:38,506 Kṛṣṇa was [a contemporary] to the Pāṇḍavas. 18 00:01:38,507 --> 00:01:42,802 Why Kṛṣṇa was picked up, and not the Pāṇḍavas? 19 00:01:42,803 --> 00:01:45,534 What is the reason? 20 00:01:45,535 --> 00:01:47,922 YOGEŚVARA: The Pāṇḍavas were the servants of Kṛṣṇa. - Huh? 21 00:01:47,923 --> 00:01:50,434 The Pāṇḍavas were the devotees of Kṛṣṇa. 22 00:01:50,435 --> 00:02:01,717 No, no; this anthropomorphism cannot be applied. 23 00:02:01,718 --> 00:02:08,322 Their activities were not so great. 24 00:02:08,323 --> 00:02:18,086 Well, nobody’s activities can be greater than God’s activities. 25 00:02:18,087 --> 00:02:22,746 There was that lady who came to see you yesterday who asked that 26 00:02:22,747 --> 00:02:27,365 “Lord Jesus performed so many miracles; so what miracles did Kṛṣṇa perform?” 27 00:02:27,366 --> 00:02:30,827 So your reply was so many miracles, killing Putana and so on. 28 00:02:30,828 --> 00:02:32,702 But that was five thousand years ago. 29 00:02:32,703 --> 00:02:33,729 Kṛṣṇa’s not here today. 30 00:02:33,730 --> 00:02:35,759 And people will ask, “Well we cannot see these miracles. 31 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:37,373 So how can we accept Kṛṣṇa?” 32 00:02:37,374 --> 00:02:40,600 BHAGAVĀN: Well they can’t see Jesus’s miracles either. 33 00:02:40,601 --> 00:02:43,475 They can see the miracles of Jesus Christ? 34 00:02:43,476 --> 00:02:46,387 They don’t accept anyone. 35 00:02:46,388 --> 00:02:47,852 All such questions. 36 00:02:47,853 --> 00:02:50,960 No sober questions. 37 00:02:50,961 --> 00:03:04,503 ATREYA ṚṢI: Kṛṣṇa’s miracles are in the hearts of devotees today. 38 00:03:04,504 --> 00:03:09,744 Kṛṣṇa’s miracle is Bhagavad-gītā. 39 00:03:09,745 --> 00:03:19,231 Yes, everyone can see. 40 00:03:19,232 --> 00:03:23,889 Who has given such information? 41 00:03:23,890 --> 00:03:24,816 All practical. 42 00:03:24,817 --> 00:03:30,852 So, there are so many scriptures all over the world, but just in the second chapter 43 00:03:30,853 --> 00:03:34,846 of Bhagavad-gītā, Kṛṣṇa gives more knowledge than all of the other scriptures. 44 00:03:34,847 --> 00:03:41,802 Oh, yes. 45 00:03:41,803 --> 00:04:00,183 It is the greatest miracle. 46 00:04:00,184 --> 00:04:03,470 These trees: Not fruit trees? 47 00:04:03,471 --> 00:04:18,561 DHANAÑJAYA: No. [break] 48 00:04:18,562 --> 00:04:23,452 …in that “Okay, you present Bhagavad- gītā as being the evidence for Kṛṣṇa, 49 00:04:23,453 --> 00:04:26,153 but so many people interpret Bhagavad-gītā. 50 00:04:26,154 --> 00:04:29,689 So where is the proof that it is miraculous if so many people debate it?” 51 00:04:29,690 --> 00:04:30,510 Huh? 52 00:04:30,511 --> 00:04:34,244 If so many people have to debate the message of Bhagavad-gītā… 53 00:04:34,245 --> 00:04:36,166 What they will debate? 54 00:04:36,167 --> 00:04:40,494 - Well, someone [indistinct]… - If they debate like rascal, that is another thing. 55 00:04:40,495 --> 00:04:48,015 If they debate like sane man, then there cannot be any difference of opinion. 56 00:04:48,016 --> 00:04:53,826 Just like Kṛṣṇa says, annād bhavanti bhūtāni [Bg. 3.14]. 57 00:04:53,827 --> 00:05:08,495 So, what is your debate on this point, that living entities, they flourish by food grains. 58 00:05:08,496 --> 00:05:13,471 So what is your debate on this point? 59 00:05:13,472 --> 00:05:16,929 Well, they may think… They may agree that the teachings are good, 60 00:05:16,930 --> 00:05:21,150 but they can’t accept it as proof that Kṛṣṇa was God. 61 00:05:21,151 --> 00:05:24,645 Well, what then… Then you have to give me definition of God. 62 00:05:24,646 --> 00:05:26,882 What is God? 63 00:05:26,883 --> 00:05:34,070 If you know God, then you can say that “Kṛṣṇa is not God.” 64 00:05:34,071 --> 00:05:39,981 Otherwise, how you can say He is not God? 65 00:05:39,982 --> 00:05:49,358 I give you a piece of gold: If you say, “It is not gold,” then you show me what is gold. 66 00:05:49,359 --> 00:05:51,684 Otherwise, you are talking nonsense. 67 00:05:51,685 --> 00:05:57,754 If you do not know the things as it is, how you can say, “It is not this”? 68 00:05:57,755 --> 00:06:00,319 If you know the positive, then you can say the negative. 69 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:03,460 Well, there are many people who say that they have actually experienced God. 70 00:06:03,461 --> 00:06:06,154 What is that God? 71 00:06:06,155 --> 00:06:07,596 Tell me. 72 00:06:07,597 --> 00:06:09,007 Well, it’s like the Guru Maharaji people. 73 00:06:09,008 --> 00:06:10,689 They say they’ve seen Guru Maharaji 74 00:06:10,690 --> 00:06:14,629 lifting Govardhana Hill and displaying universal form and so many miracles. 75 00:06:14,630 --> 00:06:16,099 They say they have seen Guru Maharaji 76 00:06:16,100 --> 00:06:17,978 doing all the miracles that Kṛṣṇa claims to have done. 77 00:06:17,979 --> 00:06:24,960 No, Kṛṣṇa, when Kṛṣṇa is present, when He lifted the Govardhana Hill, everyone saw. 78 00:06:24,961 --> 00:06:30,224 Where is your rascal Guru Mahārāja doing that, everyone can see? 79 00:06:30,225 --> 00:06:37,401 When Kṛṣṇa in Vṛndāvana, He lifted the Govardhana Hill. 80 00:06:37,402 --> 00:07:00,137 All the inhabitants saw it. [break] 81 00:07:00,138 --> 00:07:07,393 …arising from Kṛṣṇa’s pastimes proves that atheists cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. 82 00:07:07,394 --> 00:07:11,324 Because they are atheists, they don’t want to accept Him as God. 83 00:07:11,325 --> 00:07:16,249 - Therefore they will not… - Atheist do not accept God anywhere. 84 00:07:16,250 --> 00:07:21,448 So atheist is different thing. 85 00:07:21,449 --> 00:07:32,381 Atheist is atheist. 86 00:07:32,382 --> 00:07:35,126 Āsuriṁ; āsuriṁ bhāvam. 87 00:07:35,127 --> 00:07:51,843 Atheist has no knowledge. [splice] 88 00:07:51,844 --> 00:08:00,369 American luxury or European luxury leading to these hippies’ poverty. 89 00:08:00,370 --> 00:08:07,875 Voluntarily they are accepting poverty. 90 00:08:07,876 --> 00:08:09,904 Opposite. 91 00:08:09,905 --> 00:08:12,398 Sometimes this side; sometimes that side. 92 00:08:12,399 --> 00:08:25,838 Pendulum. 93 00:08:25,839 --> 00:08:27,842 What is that? 94 00:08:27,843 --> 00:08:29,837 Cranes? Cranes. 95 00:08:29,838 --> 00:08:30,661 Cranes? 96 00:08:30,662 --> 00:08:31,871 Yes. 97 00:08:31,872 --> 00:08:34,215 The zoo. 98 00:08:34,216 --> 00:08:40,601 And there’s some South American animals: Llamas. [break] 99 00:08:40,602 --> 00:08:43,106 …fight with tiger and elephants? 100 00:08:43,107 --> 00:08:45,714 Lions; lions. 101 00:08:45,715 --> 00:08:48,810 They would use a trident and a net 102 00:08:48,811 --> 00:08:54,010 and they would try to throw the net over the lion and fight the lion like this. 103 00:08:54,011 --> 00:08:56,265 - And kill? - And kill, yes. 104 00:08:56,266 --> 00:09:00,890 They would arm themselves with a helmet and some protection here for their arms 105 00:09:00,891 --> 00:09:11,078 and sometimes for their chest, and then they would attack with the trident. [break] 106 00:09:11,079 --> 00:09:17,280 Earlier Claudius. 107 00:09:17,281 --> 00:09:21,220 For enjoyment they would even put two gladiators fighting each other, 108 00:09:21,221 --> 00:09:35,610 two men killing each other, and they would all watch. 109 00:09:35,611 --> 00:09:44,345 That was in India also, that Kaṁsa’s wrestling with Kṛṣṇa. 110 00:09:44,346 --> 00:09:49,655 - Was that to the death? - Yes. 111 00:09:49,656 --> 00:09:53,343 It comes automatically to death. 112 00:09:53,344 --> 00:09:56,046 Although it is not meant. 113 00:09:56,047 --> 00:09:58,150 Nobody will agree that “I am defeated.” 114 00:09:58,151 --> 00:09:59,565 Therefore death. 115 00:09:59,566 --> 00:10:08,080 There must be death. 116 00:10:08,081 --> 00:10:08,082 Subtitles by Pratyatoṣa Dāsa, Causelessmercy.com