0 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:16,776 MW SF 1975-07-20 Life from Chemicals-Prove by Experiment 1 00:00:16,777 --> 00:00:19,545 ANNOUNCER: The following is a morning walk conversation, 2 00:00:19,546 --> 00:00:25,052 with His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, 3 00:00:25,053 --> 00:00:55,028 recorded on the 20th of June, 1975, in San Francisco, California. 4 00:00:55,029 --> 00:01:03,667 PRABHUPĀDA: There is crow. 5 00:01:03,668 --> 00:01:08,364 BHAKTADĀSA: We have the ducks over… and swans over there; the crows here. 6 00:01:08,365 --> 00:01:12,072 Why they are keeping crows? 7 00:01:12,073 --> 00:01:16,307 BAHULĀŚVA: “Birds of a feather flock together.” 8 00:01:16,308 --> 00:01:20,057 They’re crows so they are keeping crows. [break] 9 00:01:20,058 --> 00:01:29,157 They say that “You are crows; you have come to see the crow.” 10 00:01:29,158 --> 00:01:33,795 - Will they not say like that? - Yes. [splice] 11 00:01:33,796 --> 00:01:36,304 CITSUKHĀNANDA: They have one church here, Prabhupāda: Is this Mormon church. 12 00:01:36,305 --> 00:01:38,350 - Hmm. - It’s not too far from here. 13 00:01:38,351 --> 00:01:40,469 It is very gigantic, and it’s on a hill. 14 00:01:40,470 --> 00:01:42,770 And every Sunday they get maybe five… 15 00:01:42,771 --> 00:01:47,069 six thousand guests because they have spent great money on a big complex. 16 00:01:47,070 --> 00:01:49,758 They have a library, museum and church. 17 00:01:49,759 --> 00:01:51,797 This is a… 18 00:01:51,798 --> 00:01:54,821 We could also do this sometime: Make one nice Indian temple. 19 00:01:54,822 --> 00:01:58,932 Thousands of visitors would come, even just tourists, from all over the world. 20 00:01:58,933 --> 00:02:01,047 They could probably come the same way. 21 00:02:01,048 --> 00:02:03,627 Ours would be much better, though. 22 00:02:03,628 --> 00:02:06,452 Yes, very good idea. [splice] 23 00:02:06,453 --> 00:02:07,325 Ahh? 24 00:02:07,326 --> 00:02:11,400 That psychologist gentleman has to understand he’s not the body first. 25 00:02:11,401 --> 00:02:12,461 Hmm. 26 00:02:12,462 --> 00:02:14,185 So, what did he say? 27 00:02:14,186 --> 00:02:15,621 Yeah, he… He unner… 28 00:02:15,622 --> 00:02:19,269 He believed that… ah… there is soul, and that you’re not the body, 29 00:02:19,270 --> 00:02:21,728 and he’s hoping that he’ll be able to… 30 00:02:21,729 --> 00:02:23,142 ah… become more serious 31 00:02:23,143 --> 00:02:27,044 about studying Bhagavad-gītā to understand that more clearly. 32 00:02:27,045 --> 00:02:28,521 Yes. 33 00:02:28,522 --> 00:02:32,608 Let him prove there is soul; that will be great service to the Western world. 34 00:02:32,609 --> 00:02:34,537 - Mmhmm. - Yes. 35 00:02:34,538 --> 00:02:44,206 If a scientist and philosopher— psychologist proves that “Here is soul.” 36 00:02:44,207 --> 00:02:47,328 Śrīla Prabhupāda, how should they set out to prove it, though? 37 00:02:47,329 --> 00:02:50,820 - Hmm? - We… We prove it by giving scriptural evidence, 38 00:02:50,821 --> 00:02:53,341 - but how should a scientist do it? - No, we… We’ll read… 39 00:02:53,342 --> 00:02:56,752 as a living man and dead man. 40 00:02:56,753 --> 00:02:58,293 We give that proof. 41 00:02:58,294 --> 00:03:02,303 What is the difference between this dead man and living man? 42 00:03:02,304 --> 00:03:03,144 What is losing? 43 00:03:03,145 --> 00:03:06,858 - What is missing? - Mmhmm. 44 00:03:06,859 --> 00:03:08,500 This is the proof. 45 00:03:08,501 --> 00:03:15,627 He… I… I so many times spoken: The son is crying, “My father is gone; my father…” 46 00:03:15,628 --> 00:03:18,676 - “Where is your father gone? He is lying here. - Ahh. 47 00:03:18,677 --> 00:03:21,814 So what is gone? You have not seen it.” 48 00:03:21,815 --> 00:03:24,611 - Mmhmm. - This is the proof. 49 00:03:24,612 --> 00:03:28,070 Why do you cry, “Father is gone?” Father is lying here. 50 00:03:28,071 --> 00:03:30,148 Why do you say, “gone?” 51 00:03:30,149 --> 00:03:33,578 - Right. - So that means: What is gone: You have never seen it. 52 00:03:33,579 --> 00:03:34,415 Mmhmm. 53 00:03:34,416 --> 00:03:38,514 Now you perceive: “Yes, something was there; now he is gone.” 54 00:03:38,515 --> 00:03:40,672 This is the proof. 55 00:03:40,673 --> 00:03:43,927 So our statements are also backed up by observation. 56 00:03:43,928 --> 00:03:44,745 Huh? 57 00:03:44,746 --> 00:03:47,891 The Gītā’s statements are also backed up by observation. 58 00:03:47,892 --> 00:03:49,390 Yes. 59 00:03:49,391 --> 00:03:53,397 Science means observation and experiment. 60 00:03:53,398 --> 00:03:55,454 - That is science. - Yes. 61 00:03:55,455 --> 00:03:58,834 You observe that this man is moving. 62 00:03:58,835 --> 00:04:01,175 Ah. There… 63 00:04:01,176 --> 00:04:03,656 There is something… 64 00:04:03,657 --> 00:04:06,512 Invite him! 65 00:04:06,513 --> 00:04:14,851 You are invited; come. 66 00:04:14,852 --> 00:04:17,123 DHARMĀDHYAKṢA: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the psychologist is in ecstasy 67 00:04:17,124 --> 00:04:20,464 - every time he speaks to you. - Hmm? 68 00:04:20,465 --> 00:04:25,236 Hmm; no, he is a good boy. 69 00:04:25,237 --> 00:04:30,920 - Although I say, “You do not know anything.” - Yeah! 70 00:04:30,921 --> 00:04:33,905 TAMĀLA KṚṢṆA: He didn’t become angry? - No. 71 00:04:33,906 --> 00:04:34,666 BRAHMĀNANDA: He admitted. 72 00:04:34,667 --> 00:04:38,585 - He is good man. - He has some humility. 73 00:04:38,586 --> 00:04:43,776 GURU DĀSA: You tell everyone that and they come back for more. 74 00:04:43,777 --> 00:04:46,467 So science means observation, Śrīla Prabhupāda. 75 00:04:46,468 --> 00:04:49,019 - Yes, observation and experiment. - And experiment. 76 00:04:49,020 --> 00:04:54,552 - Yes; that is fact. - Experiment. [break] 77 00:04:54,553 --> 00:04:58,328 You make an experiment by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. 78 00:04:58,329 --> 00:05:00,409 No. 79 00:05:00,410 --> 00:05:10,500 Here is experiment: Just like the dead man and living man. 80 00:05:10,501 --> 00:05:16,742 First of all, you observe that this man is moving or this animal is moving. 81 00:05:16,743 --> 00:05:19,457 There is some moving force. 82 00:05:19,458 --> 00:05:22,685 And the experiment is when the man and animal is dead, 83 00:05:22,686 --> 00:05:26,696 you can understand that the moving force is gone. 84 00:05:26,697 --> 00:05:31,425 This is experiment. [splice] 85 00:05:31,426 --> 00:05:34,706 SIDDHA−SVARŪPA: The psychologists feel limited by the particular means 86 00:05:34,707 --> 00:05:38,728 of experimentation that have already been used by other psychologists. 87 00:05:38,729 --> 00:05:40,894 What experiments they have made? 88 00:05:40,895 --> 00:05:44,258 Well, these particular tests and so on that they’re using. 89 00:05:44,259 --> 00:05:46,731 Ah… So it… [splice] 90 00:05:46,732 --> 00:05:51,756 It is simple, but because of their bad education, 91 00:05:51,757 --> 00:05:55,721 they cannot understand the simple thing. 92 00:05:55,722 --> 00:05:57,969 - They want everything complicated. - Complicated. 93 00:05:57,970 --> 00:06:00,444 The experiment is there. 94 00:06:00,445 --> 00:06:03,972 Observation is there; everything is there. 95 00:06:03,973 --> 00:06:06,492 Ah… And the eternity is there. 96 00:06:06,493 --> 00:06:11,479 Kṛṣṇa begins like reasonable gentleman: Not humbug. 97 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:14,527 He says, tathā-dehāntara- prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. 98 00:06:14,528 --> 00:06:18,882 Very good example: That as in this… 99 00:06:18,883 --> 00:06:24,621 Body is changing from this stage to this stage, this stage, this stage, step by step. 100 00:06:24,622 --> 00:06:30,051 Similarly, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]… Similarly another body. 101 00:06:30,052 --> 00:06:36,260 So where is the difficulty to understand? 102 00:06:36,261 --> 00:06:42,114 If this is accepted, then immediately they’ll accept that there is soul 103 00:06:42,115 --> 00:06:51,912 which is changing body: He is eternal. 104 00:06:51,913 --> 00:06:54,711 na jāyate na mriyate [Bg. 2.20] 105 00:06:54,712 --> 00:07:01,029 Therefore, he was never born; never died. 106 00:07:01,030 --> 00:07:04,154 JAYATĪRTHA: When Arjuna came, he was suffering so much distress, 107 00:07:04,155 --> 00:07:07,225 but Kṛṣṇa did not give him any psychological test to see 108 00:07:07,226 --> 00:07:08,741 what was the matter with him. 109 00:07:08,742 --> 00:07:16,889 He immediately knew it was because he was in the bodily conception of life. 110 00:07:16,890 --> 00:07:22,510 You… Prabhupāda, the thing is that you say that it is life which makes matter move. 111 00:07:22,511 --> 00:07:24,970 The scientists, they don’t accept that. 112 00:07:24,971 --> 00:07:27,371 - Because they are rascals. - Mmhmm. 113 00:07:27,372 --> 00:07:29,909 How it is moving? 114 00:07:29,910 --> 00:07:33,385 - They say it’s a certain combination… - Oh, you… You make it. 115 00:07:33,386 --> 00:07:36,178 Then that… That means experiment. 116 00:07:36,179 --> 00:07:40,841 You simply observe, but you have no experiment; therefore it is not science. 117 00:07:40,842 --> 00:07:43,152 - Huh? Yes, demonstrate. - You have to demonstrate knowledge. 118 00:07:43,153 --> 00:07:48,332 You make in the laboratory that things are moving by this combination. 119 00:07:48,333 --> 00:07:51,547 - Hmm. - Otherwise it [is] useless. 120 00:07:51,548 --> 00:07:55,876 Therefore two things must be there: Observation and experiment. 121 00:07:55,877 --> 00:07:58,014 Practical and theoretical. 122 00:07:58,015 --> 00:08:01,069 Theoretical… Something is there who is moving. 123 00:08:01,070 --> 00:08:06,103 Now you make it practical to see that this combination… 124 00:08:06,104 --> 00:08:10,570 Just like they say chemical combination; now take the chemicals 125 00:08:10,571 --> 00:08:11,959 and make experiment. 126 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:14,703 No, they… The thing is that they are now… 127 00:08:14,704 --> 00:08:18,428 In the test tube they are making experiment, 128 00:08:18,429 --> 00:08:21,356 and they are putting a certain set of chemicals together, 129 00:08:21,357 --> 00:08:25,118 and maybe some soul takes shelter of those chemicals. 130 00:08:25,119 --> 00:08:27,560 The scientists say that they get the credit for it. 131 00:08:27,561 --> 00:08:28,998 They don’t say that the soul has entered; 132 00:08:28,999 --> 00:08:31,886 they say, “No, we have put different elements together, 133 00:08:31,887 --> 00:08:33,173 - and now some…” - No. 134 00:08:33,174 --> 00:08:34,832 - They have never succeeded in doing that. - My… 135 00:08:34,833 --> 00:08:40,424 - Huh? - They have never done that successfully. 136 00:08:40,425 --> 00:08:44,480 And even they are successful, what is credit? 137 00:08:44,481 --> 00:08:51,410 So many living entities are coming every minute, and if after thousand years, 138 00:08:51,411 --> 00:08:57,176 they can create one ant, so what is the credit? 139 00:08:57,177 --> 00:08:59,541 Śrīla Prabhupāda, now the impersonalists, 140 00:08:59,542 --> 00:09:04,606 they’ll accept that there’s something in that body that’s different than matter, 141 00:09:04,607 --> 00:09:07,972 but they won’t admit that that’s a person. 142 00:09:07,973 --> 00:09:15,819 They say that it’s just some type of energy force, or they call it consciousness. 143 00:09:15,820 --> 00:09:18,517 But we haven’t got to hear from them. 144 00:09:18,518 --> 00:09:21,001 Take lesson from Kṛṣṇa. 145 00:09:21,002 --> 00:09:22,391 NALINĪ−KAṆṬHA: Are they better situated 146 00:09:22,392 --> 00:09:24,855 than the person that doesn’t accept it at all? 147 00:09:24,856 --> 00:09:25,733 Hmm? 148 00:09:25,734 --> 00:09:28,564 The impersonalists that… that denounce Kṛṣṇa, 149 00:09:28,565 --> 00:09:33,280 are they better than the person who is ignorant of eternity? 150 00:09:33,281 --> 00:09:36,388 He… Who is he ignorant of? 151 00:09:36,389 --> 00:09:38,952 - The common man. - Ahh. 152 00:09:38,953 --> 00:09:42,232 Are the impersonalists better than the gross materialists? 153 00:09:42,233 --> 00:09:43,858 Yes. 154 00:09:43,859 --> 00:09:47,454 That is Śaṅkara’s philosophy. 155 00:09:47,455 --> 00:09:48,166 Ahh… 156 00:09:48,167 --> 00:09:50,612 brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā [Māyāvādī slogan] 157 00:09:50,613 --> 00:09:51,992 That is his philosophy. 158 00:09:51,993 --> 00:09:57,076 Brahma means that spirit soul: That is fact. 159 00:09:57,077 --> 00:10:03,595 And this material— external: That is false. 160 00:10:03,596 --> 00:10:04,551 - Prabhupāda… 161 00:10:04,552 --> 00:10:06,431 A little [more] advance[d] 162 00:10:06,432 --> 00:10:09,544 - than the Buddha philosophy. - Aha. 163 00:10:09,545 --> 00:10:14,162 Śrīla Prabhupāda, how is it a… that they describe the soul (the impersonalists)? 164 00:10:14,163 --> 00:10:20,526 Huh? 165 00:10:20,527 --> 00:10:28,264 Because they have no eyes to see, they say that “The body is finished. 166 00:10:28,265 --> 00:10:33,619 Now: Gatākāśa potakāśa [Māyāvādī slogan].” 167 00:10:33,620 --> 00:10:39,580 They give the example, just like within the pot there is sky, 168 00:10:39,581 --> 00:10:44,786 and outside the pot there is sky and when the pot is broken, 169 00:10:44,787 --> 00:10:49,974 - the within sky mixes with the outside. - Outside. 170 00:10:49,975 --> 00:10:54,499 So we say that within the pot, or the body, there is consciousness, 171 00:10:54,500 --> 00:10:56,873 and that remains eternally individual. 172 00:10:56,874 --> 00:10:59,072 Yes. 173 00:10:59,073 --> 00:11:02,875 That is said by Kṛṣṇa. 174 00:11:02,876 --> 00:11:04,872 It is not our imagination. 175 00:11:04,873 --> 00:11:09,741 So the eternal characteristic of the self, then, is that he is pure consciousness. 176 00:11:09,742 --> 00:11:13,650 - Pure consciousness—Kṛṣṇa consciousness. - Kṛṣṇa con… 177 00:11:13,651 --> 00:11:18,056 He knows that “I am part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa.” 178 00:11:18,057 --> 00:11:21,445 - That is pure consciousness. - [indistinct]. 179 00:11:21,446 --> 00:11:23,032 And therefore His servant. 180 00:11:23,033 --> 00:11:29,290 Yes, part and parcel means servant. 181 00:11:29,291 --> 00:11:31,011 Hare Kṛṣṇa. 182 00:11:31,012 --> 00:11:33,231 Would you like to were… walk further, Śrīla Prabhupāda? 183 00:11:33,232 --> 00:11:39,690 No. 184 00:11:39,691 --> 00:11:41,112 What is the time now? 185 00:11:41,113 --> 00:11:43,049 It’s a… twenty to seven. 186 00:11:43,050 --> 00:11:51,316 - That’s all right; let us go. - It’s time to go. 187 00:11:51,317 --> 00:11:51,318 Subtitles by Pratyatoṣa Dāsa, Causelessmercy.com