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MW SF 1975-07-20 Life from Chemicals-Prove by Experiment
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ANNOUNCER: The following is
a morning walk conversation,
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with His Divine Grace
A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda,
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recorded on the 20th of June,
1975, in San Francisco, California.
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PRABHUPĀDA: There is crow.
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BHAKTADĀSA: We have the ducks over…
and swans over there; the crows here.
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Why they are keeping crows?
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BAHULĀŚVA: “Birds of a
feather flock together.”
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They’re crows so they are
keeping crows. [break]
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They say that “You are crows;
you have come to see the crow.”
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- Will they not say like that?
- Yes. [splice]
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CITSUKHĀNANDA: They have one church
here, Prabhupāda: Is this Mormon church.
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- Hmm.
- It’s not too far from here.
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It is very gigantic, and it’s on a hill.
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And every Sunday
they get maybe five…
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six thousand guests because they have
spent great money on a big complex.
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They have a library,
museum and church.
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This is a…
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We could also do this sometime:
Make one nice Indian temple.
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Thousands of visitors would come, even
just tourists, from all over the world.
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They could probably
come the same way.
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Ours would be much
better, though.
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Yes, very good idea. [splice]
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Ahh?
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That psychologist gentleman has to
understand he’s not the body first.
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Hmm.
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So, what did he say?
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Yeah, he… He unner…
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He believed that… ah… there is
soul, and that you’re not the body,
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and he’s hoping that
he’ll be able to…
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ah… become more serious
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about studying Bhagavad-gītā
to understand that more clearly.
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Yes.
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Let him prove there is soul; that will
be great service to the Western world.
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- Mmhmm.
- Yes.
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If a scientist and philosopher—
psychologist proves that “Here is soul.”
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Śrīla Prabhupāda, how should
they set out to prove it, though?
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- Hmm?
- We… We prove it by giving scriptural evidence,
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- but how should a scientist do it?
- No, we… We’ll read…
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as a living man and dead man.
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We give that proof.
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What is the difference between
this dead man and living man?
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What is losing?
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- What is missing?
- Mmhmm.
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This is the proof.
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He… I… I so many times spoken: The son
is crying, “My father is gone; my father…”
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- “Where is your father gone? He is lying here.
- Ahh.
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So what is gone? You
have not seen it.”
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- Mmhmm.
- This is the proof.
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Why do you cry, “Father is
gone?” Father is lying here.
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Why do you say, “gone?”
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- Right.
- So that means: What is gone: You have never seen it.
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Mmhmm.
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Now you perceive: “Yes, something
was there; now he is gone.”
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This is the proof.
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So our statements are also
backed up by observation.
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Huh?
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The Gītā’s statements are also
backed up by observation.
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Yes.
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Science means observation
and experiment.
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- That is science.
- Yes.
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You observe that
this man is moving.
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Ah. There…
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There is something…
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Invite him!
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You are invited; come.
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DHARMĀDHYAKṢA: Śrīla Prabhupāda,
the psychologist is in ecstasy
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- every time he speaks to you.
- Hmm?
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Hmm; no, he is a good boy.
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- Although I say, “You do not know anything.”
- Yeah!
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TAMĀLA KṚṢṆA: He didn’t become angry?
- No.
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BRAHMĀNANDA: He admitted.
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- He is good man.
- He has some humility.
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GURU DĀSA: You tell everyone
that and they come back for more.
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So science means
observation, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
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- Yes, observation and experiment.
- And experiment.
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- Yes; that is fact.
- Experiment. [break]
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You make an experiment
by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa.
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No.
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Here is experiment: Just like
the dead man and living man.
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First of all, you observe that this man
is moving or this animal is moving.
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There is some moving force.
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And the experiment is when
the man and animal is dead,
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you can understand that
the moving force is gone.
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This is experiment. [splice]
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SIDDHA−SVARŪPA: The psychologists
feel limited by the particular means
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of experimentation that have already
been used by other psychologists.
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What experiments
they have made?
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Well, these particular tests
and so on that they’re using.
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Ah… So it… [splice]
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It is simple, but because
of their bad education,
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they cannot understand
the simple thing.
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- They want everything complicated.
- Complicated.
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The experiment is there.
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Observation is there;
everything is there.
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Ah… And the eternity is there.
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Kṛṣṇa begins like reasonable
gentleman: Not humbug.
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He says, tathā-dehāntara-
prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13].
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Very good example:
That as in this…
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Body is changing from this stage to this
stage, this stage, this stage, step by step.
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Similarly, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ
[Bg. 2.13]… Similarly another body.
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So where is the
difficulty to understand?
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If this is accepted, then immediately
they’ll accept that there is soul
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which is changing
body: He is eternal.
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na jāyate na mriyate
[Bg. 2.20]
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Therefore, he was
never born; never died.
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JAYATĪRTHA: When Arjuna came,
he was suffering so much distress,
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but Kṛṣṇa did not give him
any psychological test to see
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what was the matter with him.
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He immediately knew it was because
he was in the bodily conception of life.
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You… Prabhupāda, the thing is that you
say that it is life which makes matter move.
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The scientists, they
don’t accept that.
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- Because they are rascals.
- Mmhmm.
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How it is moving?
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- They say it’s a certain combination…
- Oh, you… You make it.
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Then that… That
means experiment.
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You simply observe, but you have no
experiment; therefore it is not science.
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- Huh? Yes, demonstrate.
- You have to demonstrate knowledge.
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You make in the laboratory that things
are moving by this combination.
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- Hmm.
- Otherwise it [is] useless.
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Therefore two things must be
there: Observation and experiment.
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Practical and theoretical.
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Theoretical… Something
is there who is moving.
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Now you make it practical to
see that this combination…
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Just like they say chemical
combination; now take the chemicals
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and make experiment.
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No, they… The thing
is that they are now…
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In the test tube they
are making experiment,
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and they are putting a certain
set of chemicals together,
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and maybe some soul takes
shelter of those chemicals.
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The scientists say that
they get the credit for it.
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They don’t say that
the soul has entered;
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they say, “No, we have put
different elements together,
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- and now some…”
- No.
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- They have never succeeded in doing that.
- My…
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- Huh?
- They have never done that successfully.
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And even they are
successful, what is credit?
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So many living entities are coming every
minute, and if after thousand years,
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they can create one ant,
so what is the credit?
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Śrīla Prabhupāda, now
the impersonalists,
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they’ll accept that there’s something in
that body that’s different than matter,
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but they won’t admit
that that’s a person.
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They say that it’s just some type of
energy force, or they call it consciousness.
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But we haven’t got
to hear from them.
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Take lesson from Kṛṣṇa.
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NALINĪ−KAṆṬHA: Are
they better situated
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than the person that
doesn’t accept it at all?
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Hmm?
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The impersonalists that…
that denounce Kṛṣṇa,
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are they better than the person
who is ignorant of eternity?
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He… Who is he ignorant of?
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- The common man.
- Ahh.
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Are the impersonalists better
than the gross materialists?
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Yes.
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That is Śaṅkara’s philosophy.
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Ahh…
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brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā
[Māyāvādī slogan]
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That is his philosophy.
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Brahma means that
spirit soul: That is fact.
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And this material—
external: That is false.
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- Prabhupāda…
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A little [more] advance[d]
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- than the Buddha philosophy.
- Aha.
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Śrīla Prabhupāda, how is it a… that they
describe the soul (the impersonalists)?
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Huh?
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Because they have no eyes to see,
they say that “The body is finished.
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Now: Gatākāśa potakāśa
[Māyāvādī slogan].”
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They give the example, just
like within the pot there is sky,
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and outside the pot there is sky
and when the pot is broken,
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- the within sky mixes with the outside.
- Outside.
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So we say that within the pot, or
the body, there is consciousness,
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and that remains
eternally individual.
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Yes.
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That is said by Kṛṣṇa.
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It is not our imagination.
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So the eternal characteristic of the self,
then, is that he is pure consciousness.
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- Pure consciousness—Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
- Kṛṣṇa con…
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He knows that “I am part
and parcel of Kṛṣṇa.”
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- That is pure consciousness.
- [indistinct].
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And therefore His servant.
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Yes, part and parcel means servant.
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Hare Kṛṣṇa.
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Would you like to were… walk
further, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
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No.
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What is the time now?
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It’s a… twenty to seven.
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- That’s all right; let us go.
- It’s time to go.
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