0 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:01,574 RC JOH 1975-10-21 Border Between Matter & Spirit 1 00:00:01,575 --> 00:00:03,788 ANNOUNCER: The following is a room conversation, 2 00:00:03,789 --> 00:00:09,013 with His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, 3 00:00:09,014 --> 00:00:17,080 recorded on October 21st, 1975, in Durban, South Africa. 4 00:00:17,081 --> 00:00:20,710 GUEST: The questions in order is… The first one is, 5 00:00:20,711 --> 00:00:26,860 “Within Vedic culture, what is meant by bhakti-yoga?” 6 00:00:26,861 --> 00:00:28,602 - The second one… Shall we take it in… PRABHUPĀDA: Yes. 7 00:00:28,603 --> 00:00:31,323 You just learn it first of all. 8 00:00:31,324 --> 00:00:36,064 Vedic culture is that we are living entities. 9 00:00:36,065 --> 00:00:40,842 Some way or other, we have fallen in this material world 10 00:00:40,843 --> 00:00:45,730 and encaged in this body or other body. 11 00:00:45,731 --> 00:00:53,992 So material world means the spirit soul is 12 00:00:53,993 --> 00:01:01,680 wandering throughout the universe under material conditions. 13 00:01:01,681 --> 00:01:08,899 And the Vedic knowledge is to get him out of this material condition 14 00:01:08,900 --> 00:01:14,177 and take him again to the spiritual world. 15 00:01:14,178 --> 00:01:16,645 This is Vedic knowledge. 16 00:01:16,646 --> 00:01:17,854 And bhakti… 17 00:01:17,855 --> 00:01:22,631 Bhakti-yoga is the direct method. 18 00:01:22,632 --> 00:01:27,860 There are many methods recommended. 19 00:01:27,861 --> 00:01:33,847 Karma, jñāna, yoga, and at last bhakti. 20 00:01:33,848 --> 00:01:40,324 They are different steps of the same staircase going upwards, 21 00:01:40,325 --> 00:01:44,468 and bhakti-yoga is the topmost level. 22 00:01:44,469 --> 00:01:49,978 - And bhakti is a devotional surrender. - Yes; yes. 23 00:01:49,979 --> 00:01:58,086 Spiritual world means there the Supreme Lord is supreme. 24 00:01:58,087 --> 00:02:00,291 Nobody else. 25 00:02:00,292 --> 00:02:04,506 And all others, they are engaged in His service. 26 00:02:04,507 --> 00:02:07,311 This is spiritual world. 27 00:02:07,312 --> 00:02:14,101 Here, in the material world, everyone is trying to be master. 28 00:02:14,102 --> 00:02:17,447 In the spiritual world there is no such attempt. 29 00:02:17,448 --> 00:02:23,396 They know the master is only God and all others, they are servants. 30 00:02:23,397 --> 00:02:28,469 That is the difference between material world and spiritual… 31 00:02:28,470 --> 00:02:31,982 I think that covers that. 32 00:02:31,983 --> 00:02:34,827 Second question. 33 00:02:34,828 --> 00:02:40,284 We were talking about that in this documentary, “In Search of Truth.” 34 00:02:40,285 --> 00:02:46,040 Do you think there is any other way to actually realize God in truth and… 35 00:02:46,041 --> 00:02:50,122 God can be realized through bhakti, surrender. 36 00:02:50,123 --> 00:02:57,336 Otherwise even it is realized, it is partial: Not complete. 37 00:02:57,337 --> 00:03:01,140 Well, that answers that. 38 00:03:01,141 --> 00:03:08,555 Bhakti… Just like I have got some official servant, 39 00:03:08,556 --> 00:03:12,902 and I have got very confidential servant. 40 00:03:12,903 --> 00:03:18,863 So, to my confidential servant everything is disclosed. 41 00:03:18,864 --> 00:03:21,463 He knows everything. 42 00:03:21,464 --> 00:03:26,163 But official servant, he may not know everything. 43 00:03:26,164 --> 00:03:36,725 Therefore bhakti is the confidential part of understanding God. 44 00:03:36,726 --> 00:03:47,569 Otherwise they understand vaguely, impartially… Not sufficiently. 45 00:03:47,570 --> 00:03:51,948 In the Bhagavad- gītā there is a verse: 46 00:03:51,949 --> 00:03:57,448 mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ 47 00:03:57,449 --> 00:04:02,063 asaṁśayaṁ samagraṁ māṁ… [Bg. 7.1] 48 00:04:02,064 --> 00:04:21,473 You can quote it. 49 00:04:21,474 --> 00:04:26,997 That is the first śloka of the Seventh Chapter. 50 00:04:26,998 --> 00:04:29,057 PUSTA KṚṢṆA: Sri bhagavān uvāca 51 00:04:29,058 --> 00:04:34,245 mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ 52 00:04:34,246 --> 00:04:42,150 asaṁśayaṁ samagraṁ māṁ yathā jñāsyasi tac chṛṇu [Bg. 7.1] 53 00:04:42,151 --> 00:04:48,317 “Now hear, O son of Prtha, Arjuna, how by practicing yoga in full consciousness of Me, 54 00:04:48,318 --> 00:04:56,015 with mind attached to Me, you can know Me in full, free from doubt.” 55 00:04:56,016 --> 00:04:59,002 - That answers it. - Can I have that… 56 00:04:59,003 --> 00:05:11,701 - Chapter… - Bhagavad-gītā, Seventh Chapter, first text; seven, one. 57 00:05:11,702 --> 00:05:15,371 Prabhupāda, I believe that answers all the questions I went through before that. 58 00:05:15,372 --> 00:05:21,159 - We’d just like to say it’s been very nice to meet you. - Thank you very much. 59 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:27,614 We’re both, in our own way, trying to find truth ourselves. 60 00:05:27,615 --> 00:05:30,242 Āsam [?] These two words are very important. 61 00:05:30,243 --> 00:05:36,507 Asaṁśayaṁ: “without any doubt.” 62 00:05:36,508 --> 00:05:46,719 Everyone, every religion, they have no doubtless understanding of God. 63 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:50,911 Everyone has some doubt. 64 00:05:50,912 --> 00:05:55,333 Neither complete. 65 00:05:55,334 --> 00:05:59,095 That is only in bhakti-yoga. 66 00:05:59,096 --> 00:06:01,906 We’re just discovering veils of ignorance; we’re trying to… 67 00:06:01,907 --> 00:06:08,590 Any religious system, ask them, “What do you understand by God?” 68 00:06:08,591 --> 00:06:17,307 They will not be able to explain, because that is not complete, not doubtless. 69 00:06:17,308 --> 00:06:25,034 Therefore these two words have been used, asaṁśayaṁ samagram. 70 00:06:25,035 --> 00:06:36,193 Our reading has only drawn forth a lot of conflicting answers so far. 71 00:06:36,194 --> 00:06:39,219 We’ve been reading into Hindu philosophies, 72 00:06:39,220 --> 00:06:44,212 and most of the answers conflict with each other. 73 00:06:44,213 --> 00:06:46,311 So which book you are reading? 74 00:06:46,312 --> 00:06:51,491 Well, we’ve been just reading mainly biographies by swamis and yogis, 75 00:06:51,492 --> 00:06:55,176 Aurobindo and Resynthesis of… 76 00:06:55,177 --> 00:06:59,305 They have no realization. 77 00:06:59,306 --> 00:07:05,234 They have simply jugglery of words; that’s all. 78 00:07:05,235 --> 00:07:07,816 - It’s new for us, so I’m not very… - Yes, yes. 79 00:07:07,817 --> 00:07:10,763 It’s brand new for us; we’ve only been doing it for a few months. 80 00:07:10,764 --> 00:07:13,439 Read Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 81 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:15,205 I’ve got it; I am reading it. 82 00:07:15,206 --> 00:07:18,957 Each time I read it, I find I read it a little better. 83 00:07:18,958 --> 00:07:22,088 Aurobindo has no clear knowledge. 84 00:07:22,089 --> 00:07:25,397 And which other swami you are reading? 85 00:07:25,398 --> 00:07:29,677 - We’ve read… Which one did you read? WOMAN: Maharishi. 86 00:07:29,678 --> 00:07:31,962 No, he has no… 87 00:07:31,963 --> 00:07:37,475 We’ve started practicing that Transcendental Meditation. 88 00:07:37,476 --> 00:07:41,696 We have found that by practicing the meditation 89 00:07:41,697 --> 00:07:44,352 we have had a change in consciousness. 90 00:07:44,353 --> 00:07:46,831 It has led us into further inquiry, 91 00:07:46,832 --> 00:07:50,653 so we’ve found that it has been valuable in a certain way, 92 00:07:50,654 --> 00:07:53,283 and that’s the only actual practice. 93 00:07:53,284 --> 00:07:56,745 We have been reading things like Muktananda and kundalini-yoga 94 00:07:56,746 --> 00:08:01,217 and that sort of stuff, the haṭha-yoga. 95 00:08:01,218 --> 00:08:05,017 So it’s just been an inquiry of our own which we’ve never done before. 96 00:08:05,018 --> 00:08:09,656 We’ve only been exposed to our own Christian scriptures. 97 00:08:09,657 --> 00:08:14,684 And we find in bhakti-yoga and Christianity a lot of similarities. 98 00:08:14,685 --> 00:08:17,568 They are the same, as far as we can see. 99 00:08:17,569 --> 00:08:21,239 It’s difficult, though, to understand our scriptures in… 100 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:24,568 No, in the Bhagavad-gītā everything is clearly explained. 101 00:08:24,569 --> 00:08:26,436 That’s right. 102 00:08:26,437 --> 00:08:28,263 Our scriptures are interpreted, 103 00:08:28,264 --> 00:08:34,816 and we’ve been taught to interpret them in a certain way, and it hasn’t been very clear. 104 00:08:34,817 --> 00:08:38,444 - What scripture you are… Bible? - Well, the Bible. 105 00:08:38,445 --> 00:08:41,526 But we only know the Bible as we’ve been told it, 106 00:08:41,527 --> 00:08:44,379 and it’s been told to us by unrealized men, 107 00:08:44,380 --> 00:08:50,674 and we ended up being virtually atheistically inclined, until that led to… 108 00:08:50,675 --> 00:08:55,476 So in Bible what is the conception of God? 109 00:08:55,477 --> 00:08:57,033 It’s very unclear. 110 00:08:57,034 --> 00:08:59,906 That [indistinct] I was speaking. 111 00:08:59,907 --> 00:09:03,060 - In every religion… - To identify with it. 112 00:09:03,061 --> 00:09:06,869 - There is no clear conception. - That’s right. 113 00:09:06,870 --> 00:09:08,868 And I think this is the reason that leads you away. 114 00:09:08,869 --> 00:09:12,575 We’ve been led away from the Bible because of that. 115 00:09:12,576 --> 00:09:14,229 There is nothing clear, 116 00:09:14,230 --> 00:09:19,848 and everybody who has read it to us has read it to us in a different way. 117 00:09:19,849 --> 00:09:27,605 But I would say that the finest book we have read is Bhagavad-gītā. 118 00:09:27,606 --> 00:09:34,722 There’s no question. 119 00:09:34,723 --> 00:09:34,724 Subtitles by Pratyatoṣa Dāsa, Causelessmercy.com