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RC MEX 1975-02-15 Philosopher-Yogi--Psychology for --etc
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ANNOUNCER: The
following is a conversation
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with His Divine Grace
A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda,
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recorded on the 15th of
February, 1975, in Mexico.
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HANUMĀN: This
gentleman is the director
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of the Great Universal
Fraternity here in Mexico.
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They’re the biggest, probably the
biggest yoga society in South America.
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They are following
one guru, a European,
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it’s called Bhakta [indistinct], and he’s
very interested to have your darśana.
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PRABHUPĀDA: [indistinct] We
are worshiping Kṛṣṇa, Yogeśvara.
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…master of all mystic yoga.
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Yatra yogeśvaro hariḥ.
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[door opens] HANUMĀN:
This is Mr. Coruna Cortez.
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He’s the administrator of the
Institute of Science and Education.
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He said he is a philosopher.
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Karuna?
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MR. CORTEZ: Cortez.
Arjeo Coruna Cortez.
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From India? Karuna?
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Mexican.
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Oh, Karuna is also an
Indian name, Karuna.
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And the lady here
is a psychologist.
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Oh.
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Kṛṣṇa is the topmost
yogi, Yogeśvara [break]
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MR. CORTEZ: [Spanish] [break]
HṚDAYĀNANDA: He said he has
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studied all of Western philosophy,
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he’s not that familiar
with Eastern philosophy,
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and his present interest is in the
philosophy of anthropology.
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He’s interested in
studying man, his body,
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also the spirit, how man
can transcend his body,
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and that he has come here
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because he wants to learn something
about the philosophy of the East.
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And this girl is psychologist?
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PSYCHOLOGIST [LADY]: [Spanish]
HṚDAYĀNANDA: She works in
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an institute of psychology,
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and she is particularly studying human
conduct, why people act the way they do,
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and she’s also interested in learning
something about our philosophy.
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If you have studied about the
subtle body of living entity?
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PSYCHOLOGIST: No.
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First of all, this,
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this gross body made of five material
elements—earth, water, air, fire, like that.
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This we can see with our eyes, but we
cannot see the mind, intelligence and ego.
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Although everyone knows there
is mind, there is intelligence.
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So when this body is annihilated,
the subtle body—mind, intelligence,
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ego—carries the soul
to another gross body.
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This is the process of
transmigration of the soul.
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Now, what do you
think of this process?
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[Spanish] She says in her…
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In the field of psychology
also they admit also,
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they admit the existence of forces
beyond the gross elements,
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and although ordinarily
they do not deal with that,
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she is very interested
to know about it.
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Yes. This is the law.
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Therefore in the
Bhagavad-gītā it is said,
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“The soul is not annihilated after
the destruction of the body.”
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So the soul transmigrates
to another body.
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That is the evolutionary
process for anthropology,
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basic principle of anthropology.
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So in Darwin’s theory there
is no admission of the soul.
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Therefore it is imperfect.
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The soul transmigrates from one
type of body to another type.
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And then there are
8,400,000 forms of body.
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So when we get this human form
of body we get all intelligence.
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And we should utilize
this intelligence
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how to stop this transmigration of
the soul from one body to another.
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So what is your opinion?
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[Spanish] HṚDAYĀNANDA:
[translating] If there’s a certain criteria
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of proof or a certain evidence
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that we can know for certain that there
actually is such transmigration of the soul?
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Yes. Just like the
baby is, the soul is,
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transmigrated from baby’s body to
child’s body, child’s body to boy’s body,
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boy’s body to youthful
body, so the body vanishes,
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and because the soul remains,
he gets another body.
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Now I am old man.
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I remember I had a child’s
body, I was lying down.
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I quite remember it.
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But that body is not existing.
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So this is the example.
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Everyone has experience.
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This is transmigration of the
soul from one body to another.
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And at the time of death,
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the psychological condition of the
mind will carry me to a suitable body,
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and I shall enter into the womb of my
mother through the semina of the father,
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and the mother will give that
a particular type of body,
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and when it is completely manufactured,
then I come out and begin my again.
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Therefore we find varieties of forms, but
in each and every form there is the soul.
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Now, in the human form of life,
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we should utilize our intelligence
that “This constant change of body,
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how it can be stopped?”
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And we should remain in our
eternal body because I am eternal,
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but psychologically I am simply
changing different forms of body,
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and at the time of change of body I
have to undergo so many sufferings.
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To remain within the womb of the mother
for ten months in packed up condition,
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it is a very terrible punishment.
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But for each new birth, we have to
undertake this terrible suffering.
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Sometimes nowadays
they’re being killed.
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So to avoid all these dangers,
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one should try to remain
in his spiritual body
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so that there will be no more
chance of accepting material…
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Find out this, janma karma me
divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ [?],
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tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma
naiti mām eti kaunteya [Bg. 4.9].
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[Spanish] HṚDAYĀNANDA: She wants
to know what disciplines we have,
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what practices we have.
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Also she had a misunderstanding.
She said “for the beginners,”
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so I was explaining it was
the same for the beginners.
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The main principle is, to
understand spiritual subject matter,
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one must be sinless.
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yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ
janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām
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te dvandva-moha-nirmuktā bhajante
māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ [Bg. 7.28] [break] …ess,
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more we can understand
spiritual matters.
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Therefore among our students, the
four principles… [break] Explain.
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[Spanish] HṚDAYĀNANDA: He says if to
be sinless is not something more profound
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than simply restricting the
body from some things,
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if there’s not a more profound
aspect of sinlessness.
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The body is consider… Just
like if you have got high fever,
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you cannot act your brain.
You cannot? Act your brain.
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Similarly, this is also like fever,
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sinful fever, so you cannot act your brain
for understanding higher spiritual matters.
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[Spanish] HṚDAYĀNANDA:
He’s saying, “What is sin, then?”
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That sin you have explained.
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These are the four
principles of sinful life.
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This can be avoided.
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Just like these European,
American boys.
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They were also addicted to these sinful
activities, but now they have given up,
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and they are understanding
Kṛṣṇa consciousness very nicely.
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Material life means sinful life.
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Therefore we have to act
materially under regulation.
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Just like a man suffering
from some disease,
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he has to live under the
direction of the physician.
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Otherwise his sufferings
will continue [break]
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He’s saying that he
understands perfectly well
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that a human being should
look for a way for self-control
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and to control the
physical force within him,
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but there’s also another dimension in the
human being which is a social dimension
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which also has to be taken care of.
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Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā
the social dimension is described,
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cātur varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-
karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13].
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PRABHUPĀDA: There must be
four classes of men, divisions.
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Just like this body is divided into
four departments—the brain,
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the arm, the belly and the leg—
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so the society should be divided
into four divisions: the brain division,
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the arm division, the belly
division, and the leg division.
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Leg division means
ordinary worker.
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And all of them should cooperate
for keeping the body fit.
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If this system is followed, then the whole
human society will be working very nicely.
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At the present moment there is no
brain; therefore everything is chaotic.
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So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness
movement is creating some brain.
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A man may be very stout and strong,
but if he has no good brain, it is useless.
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Similarly, at the present
moment there is education,
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there is money and everything,
but because there is no brain,
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the whole thing is
in chaotic condition.
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The first defect is, in education,
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that the present leader, he does
not know what is the aim of life.
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Neither the people know
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that there is reincarnation or
transmigration of the soul after death.
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They do not know.
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So basically they are brainless.
So they cannot give guidance,
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and therefore the whole
society is in chaotic condition.
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[Spanish] HṚDAYĀNANDA: If
our chanting is a form of prayer?
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Yes. Chanting is a spiritual
method for cleansing our heart.
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Because all dirty things are there in
the heart, if the heart becomes clean,
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then we can understand
things as they are.
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The first misunderstanding, that
everyone is thinking that he is this body,
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this is due to ignorance.
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So when one is cleansed he can
understand that he is not this body;
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he is separate from the body;
he lives within this body.
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Therefore when the person leaves
this body it is dead lump of matter.
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So people are giving more
importance to the lump of matter
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than to the real person
within the body.
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Just like a bird is within the cage,
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the cage is being washed very
nicely and no food to the bird.
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Therefore the bird is
in disturbed condition,
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and he’s crying, “Khan,
khan, khan, khan.”
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This is going on.
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They’re giving stress on the cage,
not the bird within the cage.
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Neither do they know that the living
being is within this material body.
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[Spanish] HṚDAYĀNANDA: Can someone
achieve self-realization without a guru
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or does he need a guru?
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How do you think like that?
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Is there anything within this you world
which can be learned without guru?
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Even if you become an ordinary carpenter,
you have to learn from an expert carpenter.
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So how you can imagine to learn the
topmost subject matter without guru?
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This is… The Vedic
injunction is, therefore,
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tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet
śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham [MU 1.2.12],
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samit-pāṇiḥ, like that.
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We must have a bona fide guru to train us
in the understanding of spiritual matter.
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Guru means who knows the
thing, who can teach you.
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That is guru, not a humbug guru,
but guru means one who knows.
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Tattva-darśinaḥ, one who has seen
the truth, he can become guru.
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tad viddhi praṇipātena
paripraśnena sevayā
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upadekṣyanti tad-jñānaṁ jñāninas
tattva-darśinaḥ [Bg. 4.34].
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HṚDAYĀNANDA: [Spanish] Thank
you. So I have to go, bathroom.
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Give them prasādam [end]
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Subtitles by Gaurāṅga Sundara Dāsa, Causelessmercy.com