0 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:15,401 RC MEX 1975-02-15 Philosopher-Yogi--Psychology for --etc 1 00:00:15,402 --> 00:00:17,601 ANNOUNCER: The following is a conversation 2 00:00:17,602 --> 00:00:23,191 with His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, 3 00:00:23,192 --> 00:00:42,601 recorded on the 15th of February, 1975, in Mexico. 4 00:00:42,602 --> 00:00:44,381 HANUMĀN: This gentleman is the director 5 00:00:44,382 --> 00:00:49,971 of the Great Universal Fraternity here in Mexico. 6 00:00:49,972 --> 00:00:55,281 They’re the biggest, probably the biggest yoga society in South America. 7 00:00:55,282 --> 00:01:00,711 They are following one guru, a European, 8 00:01:00,712 --> 00:01:09,991 it’s called Bhakta [indistinct], and he’s very interested to have your darśana. 9 00:01:09,992 --> 00:01:15,029 PRABHUPĀDA: [indistinct] We are worshiping Kṛṣṇa, Yogeśvara. 10 00:01:15,030 --> 00:01:19,739 …master of all mystic yoga. 11 00:01:19,740 --> 00:01:26,709 Yatra yogeśvaro hariḥ. 12 00:01:26,710 --> 00:01:28,959 [door opens] HANUMĀN: This is Mr. Coruna Cortez. 13 00:01:28,960 --> 00:01:35,189 He’s the administrator of the Institute of Science and Education. 14 00:01:35,190 --> 00:01:37,279 He said he is a philosopher. 15 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:38,409 Karuna? 16 00:01:38,410 --> 00:01:40,800 MR. CORTEZ: Cortez. Arjeo Coruna Cortez. 17 00:01:40,801 --> 00:01:43,300 From India? Karuna? 18 00:01:43,301 --> 00:01:45,150 Mexican. 19 00:01:45,151 --> 00:01:49,850 Oh, Karuna is also an Indian name, Karuna. 20 00:01:49,851 --> 00:01:51,950 And the lady here is a psychologist. 21 00:01:51,951 --> 00:01:57,620 Oh. 22 00:01:57,621 --> 00:02:05,140 Kṛṣṇa is the topmost yogi, Yogeśvara [break] 23 00:02:05,141 --> 00:02:06,050 MR. CORTEZ: [Spanish] [break] HṚDAYĀNANDA: He said he has 24 00:02:06,051 --> 00:02:08,190 studied all of Western philosophy, 25 00:02:08,191 --> 00:02:10,620 he’s not that familiar with Eastern philosophy, 26 00:02:10,621 --> 00:02:15,030 and his present interest is in the philosophy of anthropology. 27 00:02:15,031 --> 00:02:19,690 He’s interested in studying man, his body, 28 00:02:19,691 --> 00:02:23,320 also the spirit, how man can transcend his body, 29 00:02:23,321 --> 00:02:25,700 and that he has come here 30 00:02:25,701 --> 00:02:31,990 because he wants to learn something about the philosophy of the East. 31 00:02:31,991 --> 00:02:35,690 And this girl is psychologist? 32 00:02:35,691 --> 00:02:36,020 PSYCHOLOGIST [LADY]: [Spanish] HṚDAYĀNANDA: She works in 33 00:02:36,021 --> 00:02:37,871 an institute of psychology, 34 00:02:37,872 --> 00:02:42,821 and she is particularly studying human conduct, why people act the way they do, 35 00:02:42,822 --> 00:02:47,381 and she’s also interested in learning something about our philosophy. 36 00:02:47,382 --> 00:02:55,301 If you have studied about the subtle body of living entity? 37 00:02:55,302 --> 00:02:57,501 PSYCHOLOGIST: No. 38 00:02:57,502 --> 00:02:59,711 First of all, this, 39 00:02:59,712 --> 00:03:08,971 this gross body made of five material elements—earth, water, air, fire, like that. 40 00:03:08,972 --> 00:03:16,731 This we can see with our eyes, but we cannot see the mind, intelligence and ego. 41 00:03:16,732 --> 00:03:20,941 Although everyone knows there is mind, there is intelligence. 42 00:03:20,942 --> 00:03:30,261 So when this body is annihilated, the subtle body—mind, intelligence, 43 00:03:30,262 --> 00:03:35,501 ego—carries the soul to another gross body. 44 00:03:35,502 --> 00:03:38,961 This is the process of transmigration of the soul. 45 00:03:38,962 --> 00:03:42,781 Now, what do you think of this process? 46 00:03:42,782 --> 00:03:44,231 [Spanish] She says in her… 47 00:03:44,232 --> 00:03:45,381 In the field of psychology also they admit also, 48 00:03:45,382 --> 00:03:48,921 they admit the existence of forces beyond the gross elements, 49 00:03:48,922 --> 00:03:51,331 and although ordinarily they do not deal with that, 50 00:03:51,332 --> 00:03:53,481 she is very interested to know about it. 51 00:03:53,482 --> 00:03:59,481 Yes. This is the law. 52 00:03:59,482 --> 00:04:04,722 Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, 53 00:04:04,723 --> 00:04:11,072 “The soul is not annihilated after the destruction of the body.” 54 00:04:11,073 --> 00:04:19,722 So the soul transmigrates to another body. 55 00:04:19,723 --> 00:04:26,532 That is the evolutionary process for anthropology, 56 00:04:26,533 --> 00:04:29,292 basic principle of anthropology. 57 00:04:29,293 --> 00:04:34,492 So in Darwin’s theory there is no admission of the soul. 58 00:04:34,493 --> 00:04:37,512 Therefore it is imperfect. 59 00:04:37,513 --> 00:04:43,842 The soul transmigrates from one type of body to another type. 60 00:04:43,843 --> 00:04:51,282 And then there are 8,400,000 forms of body. 61 00:04:51,283 --> 00:05:00,222 So when we get this human form of body we get all intelligence. 62 00:05:00,223 --> 00:05:03,912 And we should utilize this intelligence 63 00:05:03,913 --> 00:05:09,732 how to stop this transmigration of the soul from one body to another. 64 00:05:09,733 --> 00:05:11,852 So what is your opinion? 65 00:05:11,853 --> 00:05:13,632 [Spanish] HṚDAYĀNANDA: [translating] If there’s a certain criteria 66 00:05:13,633 --> 00:05:15,642 of proof or a certain evidence 67 00:05:15,643 --> 00:05:19,832 that we can know for certain that there actually is such transmigration of the soul? 68 00:05:19,833 --> 00:05:26,682 Yes. Just like the baby is, the soul is, 69 00:05:26,683 --> 00:05:32,712 transmigrated from baby’s body to child’s body, child’s body to boy’s body, 70 00:05:32,713 --> 00:05:38,983 boy’s body to youthful body, so the body vanishes, 71 00:05:38,984 --> 00:05:42,803 and because the soul remains, he gets another body. 72 00:05:42,804 --> 00:05:45,683 Now I am old man. 73 00:05:45,684 --> 00:05:51,713 I remember I had a child’s body, I was lying down. 74 00:05:51,714 --> 00:05:54,183 I quite remember it. 75 00:05:54,184 --> 00:05:57,063 But that body is not existing. 76 00:05:57,064 --> 00:05:59,413 So this is the example. 77 00:05:59,414 --> 00:06:01,073 Everyone has experience. 78 00:06:01,074 --> 00:06:05,393 This is transmigration of the soul from one body to another. 79 00:06:05,394 --> 00:06:08,143 And at the time of death, 80 00:06:08,144 --> 00:06:16,463 the psychological condition of the mind will carry me to a suitable body, 81 00:06:16,464 --> 00:06:25,573 and I shall enter into the womb of my mother through the semina of the father, 82 00:06:25,574 --> 00:06:30,643 and the mother will give that a particular type of body, 83 00:06:30,644 --> 00:06:38,173 and when it is completely manufactured, then I come out and begin my again. 84 00:06:38,174 --> 00:06:44,313 Therefore we find varieties of forms, but in each and every form there is the soul. 85 00:06:44,314 --> 00:06:48,653 Now, in the human form of life, 86 00:06:48,654 --> 00:06:57,223 we should utilize our intelligence that “This constant change of body, 87 00:06:57,224 --> 00:06:58,823 how it can be stopped?” 88 00:06:58,824 --> 00:07:04,704 And we should remain in our eternal body because I am eternal, 89 00:07:04,705 --> 00:07:11,024 but psychologically I am simply changing different forms of body, 90 00:07:11,025 --> 00:07:17,554 and at the time of change of body I have to undergo so many sufferings. 91 00:07:17,555 --> 00:07:23,934 To remain within the womb of the mother for ten months in packed up condition, 92 00:07:23,935 --> 00:07:26,504 it is a very terrible punishment. 93 00:07:26,505 --> 00:07:32,314 But for each new birth, we have to undertake this terrible suffering. 94 00:07:32,315 --> 00:07:35,764 Sometimes nowadays they’re being killed. 95 00:07:35,765 --> 00:07:39,004 So to avoid all these dangers, 96 00:07:39,005 --> 00:07:43,704 one should try to remain in his spiritual body 97 00:07:43,705 --> 00:07:48,124 so that there will be no more chance of accepting material… 98 00:07:48,125 --> 00:07:51,994 Find out this, janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ [?], 99 00:07:51,995 --> 00:07:57,104 tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya [Bg. 4.9]. 100 00:07:57,105 --> 00:08:00,084 [Spanish] HṚDAYĀNANDA: She wants to know what disciplines we have, 101 00:08:00,085 --> 00:08:02,764 what practices we have. 102 00:08:02,765 --> 00:08:05,614 Also she had a misunderstanding. She said “for the beginners,” 103 00:08:05,615 --> 00:08:09,034 so I was explaining it was the same for the beginners. 104 00:08:09,035 --> 00:08:16,194 The main principle is, to understand spiritual subject matter, 105 00:08:16,195 --> 00:08:19,174 one must be sinless. 106 00:08:19,175 --> 00:08:25,025 yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām 107 00:08:25,026 --> 00:08:29,845 te dvandva-moha-nirmuktā bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ [Bg. 7.28] [break] …ess, 108 00:08:29,846 --> 00:08:32,985 more we can understand spiritual matters. 109 00:08:32,986 --> 00:08:40,625 Therefore among our students, the four principles… [break] Explain. 110 00:08:40,626 --> 00:08:46,005 [Spanish] HṚDAYĀNANDA: He says if to be sinless is not something more profound 111 00:08:46,006 --> 00:08:48,565 than simply restricting the body from some things, 112 00:08:48,566 --> 00:08:51,755 if there’s not a more profound aspect of sinlessness. 113 00:08:51,756 --> 00:08:55,985 The body is consider… Just like if you have got high fever, 114 00:08:55,986 --> 00:09:00,215 you cannot act your brain. You cannot? Act your brain. 115 00:09:00,216 --> 00:09:04,185 Similarly, this is also like fever, 116 00:09:04,186 --> 00:09:10,445 sinful fever, so you cannot act your brain for understanding higher spiritual matters. 117 00:09:10,446 --> 00:09:12,815 [Spanish] HṚDAYĀNANDA: He’s saying, “What is sin, then?” 118 00:09:12,816 --> 00:09:14,915 That sin you have explained. 119 00:09:14,916 --> 00:09:18,605 These are the four principles of sinful life. 120 00:09:18,606 --> 00:09:20,865 This can be avoided. 121 00:09:20,866 --> 00:09:24,755 Just like these European, American boys. 122 00:09:24,756 --> 00:09:30,805 They were also addicted to these sinful activities, but now they have given up, 123 00:09:30,806 --> 00:09:34,855 and they are understanding Kṛṣṇa consciousness very nicely. 124 00:09:34,856 --> 00:09:37,346 Material life means sinful life. 125 00:09:37,347 --> 00:09:43,496 Therefore we have to act materially under regulation. 126 00:09:43,497 --> 00:09:47,206 Just like a man suffering from some disease, 127 00:09:47,207 --> 00:09:51,686 he has to live under the direction of the physician. 128 00:09:51,687 --> 00:09:54,256 Otherwise his sufferings will continue [break] 129 00:09:54,257 --> 00:09:57,916 He’s saying that he understands perfectly well 130 00:09:57,917 --> 00:10:02,586 that a human being should look for a way for self-control 131 00:10:02,587 --> 00:10:04,736 and to control the physical force within him, 132 00:10:04,737 --> 00:10:07,926 but there’s also another dimension in the human being which is a social dimension 133 00:10:07,927 --> 00:10:09,796 which also has to be taken care of. 134 00:10:09,797 --> 00:10:17,586 Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā the social dimension is described, 135 00:10:17,587 --> 00:10:21,226 cātur varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa- karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. 136 00:10:21,227 --> 00:10:24,986 PRABHUPĀDA: There must be four classes of men, divisions. 137 00:10:24,987 --> 00:10:34,196 Just like this body is divided into four departments—the brain, 138 00:10:34,197 --> 00:10:37,956 the arm, the belly and the leg— 139 00:10:37,957 --> 00:10:45,156 so the society should be divided into four divisions: the brain division, 140 00:10:45,157 --> 00:10:51,627 the arm division, the belly division, and the leg division. 141 00:10:51,628 --> 00:10:54,617 Leg division means ordinary worker. 142 00:10:54,618 --> 00:10:59,697 And all of them should cooperate for keeping the body fit. 143 00:10:59,698 --> 00:11:07,077 If this system is followed, then the whole human society will be working very nicely. 144 00:11:07,078 --> 00:11:12,537 At the present moment there is no brain; therefore everything is chaotic. 145 00:11:12,538 --> 00:11:18,127 So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is creating some brain. 146 00:11:18,128 --> 00:11:25,247 A man may be very stout and strong, but if he has no good brain, it is useless. 147 00:11:25,248 --> 00:11:30,257 Similarly, at the present moment there is education, 148 00:11:30,258 --> 00:11:35,497 there is money and everything, but because there is no brain, 149 00:11:35,498 --> 00:11:37,797 the whole thing is in chaotic condition. 150 00:11:37,798 --> 00:11:41,677 The first defect is, in education, 151 00:11:41,678 --> 00:11:48,037 that the present leader, he does not know what is the aim of life. 152 00:11:48,038 --> 00:11:49,887 Neither the people know 153 00:11:49,888 --> 00:11:57,057 that there is reincarnation or transmigration of the soul after death. 154 00:11:57,058 --> 00:11:58,217 They do not know. 155 00:11:58,218 --> 00:12:02,797 So basically they are brainless. So they cannot give guidance, 156 00:12:02,798 --> 00:12:06,257 and therefore the whole society is in chaotic condition. 157 00:12:06,258 --> 00:12:09,737 [Spanish] HṚDAYĀNANDA: If our chanting is a form of prayer? 158 00:12:09,738 --> 00:12:20,147 Yes. Chanting is a spiritual method for cleansing our heart. 159 00:12:20,148 --> 00:12:26,467 Because all dirty things are there in the heart, if the heart becomes clean, 160 00:12:26,468 --> 00:12:29,248 then we can understand things as they are. 161 00:12:29,249 --> 00:12:35,918 The first misunderstanding, that everyone is thinking that he is this body, 162 00:12:35,919 --> 00:12:38,138 this is due to ignorance. 163 00:12:38,139 --> 00:12:43,578 So when one is cleansed he can understand that he is not this body; 164 00:12:43,579 --> 00:12:47,208 he is separate from the body; he lives within this body. 165 00:12:47,209 --> 00:12:56,088 Therefore when the person leaves this body it is dead lump of matter. 166 00:12:56,089 --> 00:13:01,039 So people are giving more importance to the lump of matter 167 00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:05,298 than to the real person within the body. 168 00:13:05,299 --> 00:13:08,448 Just like a bird is within the cage, 169 00:13:08,449 --> 00:13:12,788 the cage is being washed very nicely and no food to the bird. 170 00:13:12,789 --> 00:13:15,358 Therefore the bird is in disturbed condition, 171 00:13:15,359 --> 00:13:18,668 and he’s crying, “Khan, khan, khan, khan.” 172 00:13:18,669 --> 00:13:20,178 This is going on. 173 00:13:20,179 --> 00:13:25,888 They’re giving stress on the cage, not the bird within the cage. 174 00:13:25,889 --> 00:13:31,638 Neither do they know that the living being is within this material body. 175 00:13:31,639 --> 00:13:34,048 [Spanish] HṚDAYĀNANDA: Can someone achieve self-realization without a guru 176 00:13:34,049 --> 00:13:36,938 or does he need a guru? 177 00:13:36,939 --> 00:13:39,399 How do you think like that? 178 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:45,739 Is there anything within this you world which can be learned without guru? 179 00:13:45,740 --> 00:13:50,809 Even if you become an ordinary carpenter, you have to learn from an expert carpenter. 180 00:13:50,810 --> 00:13:57,649 So how you can imagine to learn the topmost subject matter without guru? 181 00:13:57,650 --> 00:14:00,169 This is… The Vedic injunction is, therefore, 182 00:14:00,170 --> 00:14:05,909 tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham [MU 1.2.12], 183 00:14:05,910 --> 00:14:08,589 samit-pāṇiḥ, like that. 184 00:14:08,590 --> 00:14:17,749 We must have a bona fide guru to train us in the understanding of spiritual matter. 185 00:14:17,750 --> 00:14:21,219 Guru means who knows the thing, who can teach you. 186 00:14:21,220 --> 00:14:25,879 That is guru, not a humbug guru, but guru means one who knows. 187 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:32,999 Tattva-darśinaḥ, one who has seen the truth, he can become guru. 188 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:37,449 tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā 189 00:14:37,450 --> 00:14:41,559 upadekṣyanti tad-jñānaṁ jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ [Bg. 4.34]. 190 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:42,769 HṚDAYĀNANDA: [Spanish] Thank you. So I have to go, bathroom. 191 00:14:42,770 --> 00:14:49,054 Give them prasādam [end] 192 00:14:49,055 --> 00:14:49,056 Subtitles by Gaurāṅga Sundara Dāsa, Causelessmercy.com