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RC PAR 1974-06-13 Russian Orthodox Church--Moral --etc
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ANNOUNCER: The
following is a conversation,
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with His Divine Grace
A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda,
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recorded on the 13th of
June, 1974, in Paris, France.
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Prabhupāda: …Kotovsky.
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- He is the director of Indology in Moscow.
- I see.
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- So my talk with was published in some…
- Yes, I have this book in my office in Paris.
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But he does not believe in incarnation
and he still, he is professor of Indology.
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KARANDHARA: He
doesn’t believe in the soul.
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Professor Kotovsky, he doesn’t
believe in the existence of soul.
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CHURCH REPRESENTATIVE:
But I think that he is a Marxist.
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Yes, he's a… Or at least he has to
appear as one to maintain his position.
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- Prabhupāda’s point is that…
- There are many professor in Russia
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of religion, on the history of
religion, but who don’t believe
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- in nothing.
- That was Prabhupāda’s point,
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that it’s ironic that in modern
societies men are called professors,
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or being proficient in knowledge,
but yet they’re ignorant of the soul,
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which is the most basic knowledge,
the most fundamental knowledge.
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According to the Vedic
system, Indian system,
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even a most ignorant man
knows about the soul,
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what to speak of the
great learned sages.
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But in this society, western society,
the so-called learned men—
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they’re supposed to be
the topmost learned men—
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they don’t even know of the soul.
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Therefore they’re not even in
the class of an ignorant man.
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They’re lower than even ignorance.
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And according to Vedic understanding, one
who does not understand what is soul—
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he identifies himself with this
body —he is animal. [splice]
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So in the Vedic language, one
who has taken this body as self,
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yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke
[SB 10.84.13], and sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu,
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and own men, the family, society,
community, national, not outside that,
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sva-dhīḥ, “They are my own men.”
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sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma-ijya-dhīḥ
[SB 10.84.13]
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and the land of birth
worshipable, nationalism,
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yat-tīrtha-buddhiḥ salile na karhicit
[SB 10.84.13]
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And holy place, to take bath in
the water of Jordan or Ganges,
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such persons are
considered as go-kharaḥ.
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Go means cow, kharaḥ means ass.
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That means animals.
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What is your
conception of the soul?
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Do you believe in the soul?
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What do you mean by this?
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- Prabhupāda: Soul…
- CHURCH REPRESENTATIVE: Yes, I know…
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I cannot say that I
know what is soul.
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I know that there are
souls, that I have a soul.
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But I think that it’s very
difficult to give adequate…
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YOGEŚVARA: He says that,
he knows that he has a soul,
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but he thinks it would be hard to give
an accurate definition of the soul.
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But if he knows what is soul, where
is the difficulty to give definition?
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- So he says he can accept
that he has a soul…
- Certainly, I accept.
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But it would be hard to describe,
he thinks, the nature of the soul.
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The body, which is something
tangible, we can describe.
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But something of a spiritual
nature like the soul,
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must be much more
difficult to describe.
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You can describe it by the negative
way, that soul is not body.
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Then we are still left with the problem:
what is the relationship between the two?
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First of all let us understand
what is the soul.
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That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā:
na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācit. [Bg 2.20]
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nityaḥ śāśvato ’yam
na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre
[Bg. 2.20]
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adāhyo ’yam aśoṣyo ’yam akledyo ’yam
[Bg 2.24]
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Read those paragraphs.
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PUṢṬA-KṚṢṆA: na jāyate
mriyate vā kadācin
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nāyaṁ bhūtvā bhavitā vā na bhūyaḥ
ajo nityaḥ śāśvato ’yaṁ purāṇo
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na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre
[Bg. 2.20]
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Translation.
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“Translation: For the soul
there is never birth nor death.
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Nor, having once been,
does he ever cease to be.
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He is unborn, eternal, ever-
existing, undying and primeval.
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He is not slain when
the body is slain.”
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vedāvināśinaṁ nityaṁ
ya enam ajam avyayam
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kathaṁ sa puruṣaḥ pārtha
kaṁ ghātayati hanti kam
[Bg 2.21]
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“O Pārtha, how can a person who
knows that the soul is indestructible,
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unborn, eternal and immutable, kill
anyone or cause anyone to kill?”
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But I cannot say
that it is a definition.
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- Do you say in English, definition?
- Yes, definition.
- I cannot say that it is a definition.
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- It is a sort of creed, a profession of faith.
- No, it is characteristic.
- Yes…
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Definition means you mention the
characteristic, that is definition.
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Definition, you mention
the characteristic.
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So that can be mentioned
directly, or if it is not perceivable,
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then you can define
in opposite way.
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Just like we have got experience:
everything in the material world,
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it is beginning, there is a beginning,
your body, my body, everything—
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it has got a beginning,
and it has got an end.
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So it is stated, na jāyate
na mriyate vā [Bg 2.20]:
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“It has no beginning, no end.”
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And nityaḥ, eternal,
śāśvataḥ very old, purāṇaḥ.
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na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre
[Bg. 2.20]
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“It is not destroyed, annihilated,
after the destruction of the body.”
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So if we accept this definition, then
we can understand the soul is eternal.
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Our characteristic, if we
accept these characteristics,
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na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre
[Bg. 2.20]: after the destruction
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of body the soul is never destroyed, then
you can understand the soul is eternal.
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And it is clearly stated, na hanyate
hanyamāne śarīre. [Bg. 2.20]
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“After the destruction of the
body, it is not destroyed.”
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So, it means it takes another body.
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He says that’s not necessarily
the logical conclusion.
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He says he’s familiar with that theory,
but it’s more a question of faith.
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He says it’s not actually
a logical conclusion,
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that if the soul leaves this
body it must take another one.
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PRABHUPĀDA: What
does he mean by logic?
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He says that means that it’s not
something that’s very evident to me.
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It may not be evident to
him, but why not others?
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He says, one thing is
that, he feels kind of glad
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that it’s more or less a question of
opinion, because if it was Absolute Truth,
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then it would be too
restricting for everyone.
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No, it is Absolute Truth.
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But there are different ways of
understanding Absolute Truth.
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He is taking only one
way, direct perception.
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He said, if it were an absolute truth,
it would be evident to everyone.
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Yes.
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But everyone is not
advanced in knowledge.
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He says the question remains
because there are other,
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very spiritually advanced men
who don’t accept that idea.
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No, somebody may be known as spiritually
advanced according to the society,
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but he may not be.
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So another thing is that what is the way
of understanding the Absolute Truth.
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Let him explain.
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What is the standard way of
understanding Absolute Truth?
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He says he doesn’t have an answer
in that kind of a context. [splice]
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It may be problematic to some,
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but Absolute Truth can be understood
by śruti, authoritative hearing. [splice]
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The Absolute Truth is known by the
absolute method which is called śruti,
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hearing from the Absolute.
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Absolute cannot be
imagined or speculated.
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He says that is a
fundamental point.
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Yes.
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So therefore we accept Absolute
Truth from the Absolute.
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And according to the Vedic system, in
different times and different places,
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according to the mentality
and the culture of the people,
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the Absolute has made Himself known on
different levels, higher and lower levels.
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But that the… Absolute as
revealed through the Vedas,
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specifically the Bhagavad-gītā,
is the most advanced level.
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It is the standard by which
all other levels are judged.
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It is the most advanced,
complete knowledge. [splice]
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But it’s not just an opinion,
it’s not just a secular idea.
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By scientific principle,
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if we consider the logic of all the
propositions of Bhagavad-gītā
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in relation to the Bible and Koran,
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if we’re actually impartial and open,
then we’ll understand that truth.
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It’s not a matter of opinion,
it’s a matter of superior logic,
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extending the same basic truths
to their highest perfection.
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So in discussing the
merits of Bhagavad-gītā
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versus another scripture, it’s
not that we’re trying to argue
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just for the sake of polemics but
to establish the real standard,
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what is the most elevated or
advanced standard of the knowledge.
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BHAGAVĀN: But people are suffering
due to lack of that accurate knowledge.
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Yes.
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And our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement
is trying to make that knowledge available
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in practical activity to
stop this suffering.
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It is not just a philosophy
without practice.
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That is the reason why it is
important for discussing,
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not just for the sake of discussing,
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but for the sake of bringing out
the highest principles for action.
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So [according to] Vedic way,
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Kṛṣṇa is the Absolute Truth.
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Kṛṣṇa is Absolute Truth,
accepted by the ācāryas.
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Indian civilization is carried on the
advice of the ācārya-sampradāya.
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So all the ācāryas like Śaṅkarācārya,
Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya,
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they all accept Kṛṣṇa
as the Absolute Truth.
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So when we hear from Kṛṣṇa,
then we get absolute knowledge.
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The reason why we gather like
this to discuss these principles,
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is that just like a group
of scholars will gather,
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to refine and crystallize
their knowledge.
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He must excuse himself, he
has a prior engagement.
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- I thank you so much for your…
- Hare Kṛṣṇa
- I must go now.
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Hare Kṛṣṇa.
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I’d just like to finish the
one point I was making,
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that the reason we gather like this and we
desire to discuss with other personalities,
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other people with
different views of religion,
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is for the sake of the
edification of everyone,
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so that the highest
principles can be isolated,
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and so we can advance
the purpose of religiosity.
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It’s not simply for the sake of
argument that we pose questions.
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But it’s for the sake
of the edification
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or the crystallization of the
highest principles of religion.
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- I absolutely agree on this point, certainly.
- YOGEŚVARA: He says that he’s familiar
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- with this principle.
- Not so familiar, I know of it.
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He says he knows of it, but he doesn’t
consider himself to be an expert.
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But because you are part of God,
you have real interest in this. [splice]
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He says he’s willing to admit
this philosophy even though
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he doesn’t belong to it himself.
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He sees this as being… [French]
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PARAMAHAṀSA: He appreciates the
fact that it has a coherent aspect,
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that it holds together logically.
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And this is what he appreciates.
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He respects the Vaiṣṇava
philosophy because it is substantial.
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- It doesn’t contradict itself.
- So then the…
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If the Vaiṣṇava philosophy
has a systematic logic,
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then integrity would dictate that we
have to surrender or accept that logic.
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If a logic is true, we can’t stand
apart from it and simply observe it.
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We have to accept it ourselves.
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You are right on the brink of
Absolute Truth, don’t run away.
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He says that even though he has
a great interest in this discussion,
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- because he has prior commitments,
he’s unable to stay.
- That’s all right.
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- Take some prasādam.
- That’s all right. He has got.
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I have, I have and I have
read with great interest.
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Thank you very much.
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Tomorrow night we have very
nice conference in Salle Pleyal.
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I have seen in many
places, I have seen you.
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- So you’re welcome to come.
- Thank you
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- What is his position?
- He’s the head of the Russian Orthodox Church.
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He’s the head of the church but he
cannot… He feels he’s not qualified
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to discuss spiritual matters.
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Once last year a man in London,
a professor in a religious school,
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said the same thing, and you said that
according to our Vedic philosophy,
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if a teacher doesn’t know
something, he should step down.
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And his answer was,
“I can’t do that.”
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It seems amazing that such fundamental
questions, they remain mute,
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such people like this, who
are supposed to be qualified,
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to bring other people
out of their distress.
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That’s why the church
now has lost everyone,
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because even its leaders are
saying, “I don’t know anything.
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I’m just fumbling around like everyone
else, I don’t really know anything definite.”
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- Still, he is leader?
- Yes.
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The impersonalists,
Lord Caitanya said
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that they are the greatest
offenders to Lord Kṛṣṇa.
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So most of the so-called religious
people of the world today,
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if they have a conception of God,
it is that God is impersonal spirit.
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Does that mean they
are to be classified,
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at least in terms of this understanding,
amongst the demons and asuras?
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No, in this instance this man is… It’s
not as much that he’s an impersonalist
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as that he has no clear
idea one way or the other.
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He’s ignorant.
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An impersonalist is someone in the
classic sense who has… He’s aware
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of the Vaiṣṇava philosophy,
but he rejects that,
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that God is definitely not a person, and
he takes that as being a lower conception.
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In ignorance, though, even
though he’s in ignorance,
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he is hurting people due
to his ignorance by…
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He’s claiming to be a teacher, and even
though he may be innocent or ignorant,
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because he’s in that position of leader, he’s
actually hurting people, wasting their life.
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FRENCH DEVOTEE: He
left, Śrīla Prabhupāda,
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- because he was very afraid
that we were right.
- No, he said he had another engagement.
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In the world today it seems as if,
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just like men take advantage of women
and make them topless and bottomless,
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also they try and encourage people
like this to be leaders of religion.
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That way the mass of people
don’t take any real interest.
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They do this in Russia too.
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And they kill the sincere
religious leaders,
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and they put their own
men as religious leader,
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and it just sort of
undermines the whole purity,
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and the importance in the instruction,
and then no one repeats it.
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In the West also, in the past ten
years there’s been a resurgence
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of what’s called fundamentalism.
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For so long the Christian doctrine, got
so hodge-podge and so wishy-washy,
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that people were leaving because
there was simply nothing there solid
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for them to grasp onto.
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Now fundamentalism, or the very basic
principles that God is the Almighty,
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and that we are sinners
and if we don’t repent,
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God’s going to strike us
down with wrath and anger,
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that basic principle of fear of God,
that is receiving new support.
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Many people are coming back
to that because even though it’s,
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it's a very vague thing, still
it’s something definite.
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“God is there, and if I do something
wrong, He’s going to cut me down,”
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rather than, “Well, nothing’s
wrong, nothing’s right,”
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it’s all hodge-podge, wish wash.
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People can’t grasp onto that,
there’s nothing for them to eh…
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That is Māyāvāda, “nothing wrong,
nothing right, everything is all right.”
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Vivekananda’s philosophy.
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Śrīla Prabhupāda, I think
we’ll leave around 7:30,
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- so perhaps you can take a little
rest before the engagement.
- Hmm…
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