Room Conversation
with His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada
October 27, 1968, Montreal,
with First Devotees Going to London
On Evening of Their Departure

Prabhupada: You can plaster together, up and down, and each and every one of them is separately sevenfold covered. The watery portion is beyond the sevenfold coverings. And each covering is ten times more expansive than the previous covering. The Personality of Godhead creates all such universes by His breathing period, lies above the cluster of the universes.

Janardana: So there’s four… There’s water, air, fire, ether, and pradhana. This is given. [break] This should be corrected.

Prabhupada: Third Canto, it is five coverings?

Janardana: Yes.

Prabhupada: And in the Second Canto seven coverings?

Janardana: Yes.

Prabhupada: Seven kinds of subtle, and these five covering is gross. So subtle should be taken also.

Janardana: Yes. Is pradhana subtle matter?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Janardana: So the subtle is moving the gross like the miller’s wheel. The potter’s wheel moves the pot. So the pradhana… So the mind is moving the body. So the pradhana… They simply put pradhana…

Prabhupada: If it is mentioned, five, then it is five gross, and seven means subtle. So five or seven… Of course, seven is more explicit than the five.

Janardana: I never see anywhere where it is mentioned that there’s an earth covering. It’s always water as the first. Water is the first layer that’s given. So there are four of the elements.

Prabhupada: Then above water there is air.

Janardana: Air, fire, ether. Water, fire, air, ether, and then this pradhana. So pradhana is split up into the three: ahankara, mahat-tattva and… What’s…?

Prabhupada: Pradhana is material ingredients, material cause.

Janardana: Material cause.

Prabhupada: And prakrti…

Janardana: Is the efficient cause.

Prabhupada: Efficient cause.

Janardana: That is in the Brahma-samhita.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Janardana: I have the page.

Prabhupada: This is Third Canto?

Janardana: Third Canto. I have fragments of it. Satsvarupa Prabhu gave me some fragments that he had. So I have a couple of books like this. [break]

Prabhupada: I shall put here. [break] …and you… The New York boys’ opinion is to start a press in New York will be nice because there is so many other facilities for press work. If the press goes wrong, there are immediate, I mean to say, what is called, mechanics to repair it. In other places it is not possible. [break] All right. We shall think over it.

Janardana: About the press in New York?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Janardana: Well, Montreal center has a room for a press. However, there is the inconvenience that the building may be torn down in two years.

Prabhupada: What about that other building, that storefront down?

Janardana: A storefront downstairs? I don’t know all the details about that. I haven’t been looking into…

Prabhupada: You told me that there is a church for sale on the other side of the park?

Janardana: Yes, there is. Yes.

Prabhupada: Where is that church?

Janardana: It’s on Esplanade Street.

Prabhupada: On the corner?

Janardana: It’s on a corner. It’s on the corner of Esplanade and the other street. I don’t remember. I can go on my bicycle and take a look there.

Prabhupada: That’s a very big building?

Janardana: It is a three story house. It is about the size of one of these houses here, not the apartment houses but…

Prabhupada: That, some cross?

Janardana: Yes, there’s a cross there.

Prabhupada: Pastor, it is written pastor?

Janardana: Yes, yes.

Prabhupada: That’s small building.

Janardana: That is small?

Prabhupada: Yes. I have seen it.

Janardana: You’ve seen it. You take walks so far over there? (laughter)

Prabhupada: That’s not a very big building.

Janardana: Not good enough for you. (laughter) Well, there’s a synagogue…

Prabhupada: So what did you do about this building? You have not written anything?

Janardana: Well, I haven’t had a minute all week.

Prabhupada: You must today finish it. We must borrow type and send it.

Janardana: Okay, I’ll finish it today. All this week I was so engaged around the temple.

Prabhupada: Yes. So our engagement should be on that point, that these people will not easily understand, so we are not going to waste time for nothing. If anybody calls for meeting and lecturing, we must charge. Yes. And if they want to hear free, they may come to our temple. Don’t become cheap. You see? My Guru Maharaja used to say that, photar kathara sei usane na(?): “If somebody becomes cheap, then nobody hears him.” Especially in this country. If you become free speaker, then he’s not taken into very seriously. So we must charge. In Boston, all the lectures Satsvarupa arranged, they paid hundred dollars, at least fifty dollars.

Janardana: If they pay, then they will have to get something out of it. They will force themselves to get something out of it.

Prabhupada: Yes. Everyone paid. The Massachusetts Technical College and Eastern University. Eastern University there is…?

Janardana: I think so.

Prabhupada: Then Harvard University and Boston University, and one church. They have paid, yes. And one church, Arlington Church, in that church… I think you were present there? Arlington Church?

Govinda dasi: Unitarian?

Prabhupada: No. You have not been in Boston. Some girls from temple, they were present.

Govinda dasi: Annapurna?

Prabhupada: Annapurna is always present wherever I go. (laughing) She is very nice, that she wants to follow me. This morning I was asking her that “After your marriage where you want to stay?” and she said, “Wherever you stay, I stay.” “And I am traveling. Then you are married. You must have a place to settle.” Anyway, in that church they charged us for meeting, but we collected very nicely. We collected more than hundred dollars. Yes. A very nice meeting.

Janardana: How many people were there?

Prabhupada: More than hundred, because we collected hundred dollars, and utmost, they have paid one dollar.

Janardana: The summer season is very slow in Montreal. The churches cut down their sermon program. The synagogues don’t having sermons in the summer very often. So that’s why we haven’t had so many engagements. But in the month of September things begin to pick up faster. The coldest time of the year is the busiest time of the year here actually. The real busy season is January and February.

Prabhupada: Yes. I was speaking to Gaurasundara that Janardana speaks, “The winter season is the busiest season,” and you said, “It is dull season”? (chuckles)

Janardana: January and February are the busiest, and they are the coldest months too.

Prabhupada: Very busy?

Janardana: Yes.

Prabhupada: How you are feeling, Saradiya? Nice?

Saradiya: I’m fine.

Prabhupada: You are going to Europe? No? You have got to attend your school? That’s nice. So your program is starting tomorrow morning?

Yamuna: Five o’clock.

Prabhupada: Five o’clock?

Yamuna: That’s when we have to get out.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. So you are going by taxi?

Guru dasa: To the airport?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guru dasa: Yes, I think so.

Devotee (2): You’d have to.

Yamuna: Three taxis.

Prabhupada: Why three taxis?

Malati: Two taxis. There are so many of us and so much baggage.

Prabhupada: Ah, yes. So for me, I shall be ready to start as soon as we hear from you. Yes. And tomorrow I shall expect mail. I don’t think I am going to Vancouver because from Upendra’s letter it is not very encouraging, and I don’t think Mr. Renogay(?) will, on his personal account, call me and pay me. I don’t think so. So what is your next program here?

Janardana: Then the next program here… Well, the busy season will begin. So I’ll go to McGill and Sir George Williams Universities and some churches also, and I’ll try to get speaking engagements. [break]

Prabhupada: …building?

Janardana: Possibly. Maybe I’ll find a place on the other side of the mountain for you because the man here insisted if we take this for September, we must take it for the whole year.

Prabhupada: [break] …means October, November, December?

Janardana: Until next year in September.

Prabhupada: Ho, ho! (devotees laugh) That is not possible.

Janardana: That’s what he’s asking now.

Prabhupada: [break] Because in the winter season they don’t get tenants?

Janardana: Well, a few will get easily tenants, but he wants to get a tenant for the whole winter. And September is a month when there is the best chance for getting a tenant because that’s when all the student population comes back into town and this is a student district. And so in the month of September he would like to either get a tenant for the whole year or leave the place open. But maybe I can persuade him because it is not very easy to find a suitable apartment for only one month in Montreal.

Prabhupada: [break] …pare dhana parke diye nija labha cora: “I borrowed something from you, and I lend him. He does not pay me, and I become thief.”

Janardana: Yes.

Prabhupada: (laughing) So… “I borrow from you and I lend him. He does not pay me and I become thief.” Pare dhana parke diya nija labha cora. So that means this is warning: “One should not do like that. One should not take responsibility for a person where there is no connection.” [break] Everywhere the principle of self-interest is there. [break] That is there. But real self-interest is Krsna. For Krsna we can do anything. Because He is supreme Self. Bijo ’ham sarva-bhutanam. He is the Self of selves. [break] Where is Hamsaduta? What he’s doing there?

Devotee (1): I think he’s cooking.

Prabhupada: Cooking? (laughs) He’s very expert cooking. (laughs) And Himavati also, assisting her husband?

Devotee (1): I don’t think so.

Prabhupada: Hamsaduta likes to cook.

Yamuna: Oh, he loves it.

Prabhupada: So he wants to open a restaurant.

Janardana: Here?

Prabhupada: Yes. Our, I mean to say, ISKCON restaurant. So you wanted to open that restaurant in our temple.

Janardana: Yes.

Prabhupada: So why don’t you do it? He is a very nice cooker.

Janardana: If he stays here to cook, that’s a very good idea.

Prabhupada: Yes, he’ll stay. And I have told him already. And I have asked all the students in America chased by this draft board may come here.

Yamuna: You’re going to have to get a bigger building.

Devotee (2): There won’t be anybody left in America.

Prabhupada: No. In our connection, our students, let him come here. So these two boys, Jayapataka and Vaikuntha, in the same process receive. And therefore I was thinking that let us start press and restaurant and engage all these boys. So you can… [break] …center. Why don’t you try for that building?

Janardana: The building, the Strathcona, the government building.

Prabhupada: That is very nice, but other building in front of our temple, just not in exactly front. That big signboard.

Janardana: Oh, 16,000, 15,000 square feet, a dollar sixty a foot?

Prabhupada: Dollar sixty?

Janardana: Yes. We are paying forty-nine cents a foot, and they are asking there a dollar sixty a foot. They are asking three times more rent than we are paying. It’s very expensive.

Prabhupada: How many…, there? 16,000?

Janardana: 15,000 square feet. It is a fortified place because they keep furs. They keep animal furs there, and animal furs are very expensive, and thieves very often break in. So I think that one of the reasons why it’s so expensive is because it’s fortified.

Prabhupada: I do not follow. What is that?

Janardana: It is a place… [break] …of animals, and they are very expensive furs.

Prabhupada: Yes, very expensive.

Janardana: Very expensive. They want a dollar sixty a square foot per year, which is very expensive. We are paying 49 cents a square foot per year.

Prabhupada: Oh. I thought that because it is a downstairs floor, the restaurant can be started there.

Janardana: Oh, you mean there’s another place? You mean that storefront downstairs?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Janardana: Oh, that place… It’s a green color and the windows are covered with soap? The windows are painted white?

Prabhupada: No. It’s a big building, big store. And big signboard. [break] …shall approach. (laughing) Somebody said, told, that is for sale?

Janardana: There is a store for sale. No. I think what they mean, the business is for sale.

Prabhupada: [break] …prescription, doctors never says in plain terms. Just like at the end of the prescription, “add water.” This is real purpose. They will write “aqua pureata(?)”. Nobody will understand. They will understand. This is also some of the medicine. Aqua means water. Similarly, you can say, “prasadam distribution,” and they will have to consult dictionary, what it is. And you can say, “Oh, it is not restaurant; it is prasadam.” So at least…

Janardana: No. “Nobody is allowed to smoke in here, and they have to take off their shoes, so how can you say it’s a restaurant?”

Prabhupada: Yes. These are technical. [break] …description, what is called restaurant, that “Wherever foodstuff is prepared and sold, that is called restaurant,” then it will come to that category. Whenever they make some law, they give definition of each word, what do you mean by restaurant. So today is another ceremony in the temple?

Janardana: We couldn’t find any barley. What can we use instead?

Prabhupada: Barley? Why? It is…?

Janardana: The stores are all closed today, and the boys searched everywhere. They didn’t find any barley.

Prabhupada: Some grains. Any other grain.

Janardana: There is whole wheat.

Prabhupada: That will do.

Janardana: Whole wheat grains and there’s rice.

Prabhupada: Rice… Better… Wheat is better.

Janardana: And what else is there?

Prabhupada: Sesame?

Janardana: Sesame? I don’t know. Is there some sesame?

Malati: Yes, I have some and Annapurna has some.

Janardana: And there’s some buckwheat. Raw buckwheat.

Prabhupada: Buckwheat? What is that?

Janardana: Raw buckwheat. It’s a grain.

Saradiya: [break] What is the significance of using the barley and the sesame.

Prabhupada: Some eatables, that’s all. Grains are eatables. Therefore I am substituting. They are eatable. There must be something eatable.

Devotee (1): Does eatable… Does Krsna eat out of the fire?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Devotee (1): He does? He eats all that?

Prabhupada: Everyone eats. Krsna also… Krsna eats through fire. Therefore yajna is offered. Krsna eats by so many ways, but people want to see that “I give foodstuff; it must be finished.” (chuckles) So for the rudimental seers and the less intelligent class, this is…

Janardana: Virata rupa conception.

Prabhupada: Virata rupa, yes. That is also nice, right, that through fire He eats, yes, or through the mouth of the brahmanas and devotees. Two things are there. Therefore, according to the Vedic religion, the brahmanas or Vaisnavas, devotees, are invited to take food in some ceremonies. In sraddha ceremony they are especially invited with great honor. In pilgrimage somebody goes to Vrndavana, Prayag, Mathura. They invite the brahmanas and Vaisnavas so that through them Krsna is eating. They have come to satisfy Krsna in a place of pilgrimage. These are the systems. So for the purpose of eating, so many brahmanas have sprung up. Because brahmanas are invited, so so many so-called brahmanas there. They’ll be present when eating, and when there is chanting of Vedas they are not present there. [break] Baby has also tilaka. (chuckles) She is very happy. You see? I never seen such small child not crying. That means she is always happy. She’s not crying means… Because baby cries when there is discomfort. And with her face shows that she is very happy. (laughs)

Yamuna: [break] …Swamiji.

Prabhupada: Just see. Thank you. [break] …see?

Girl Devotee: (inaudible)

Prabhupada: Oh. Just see. All very healthy, I see, because very energetic.

Saradiya: [break] Simply by Your Divine Grace, on Krsna’s appearance day in San Francisco my mother came to the temple and she wore a sari and a tilaka.

Prabhupada: Oh. (chuckles) You are converting your mother to this cult.

Yamuna: A very nice mother she has.

Prabhupada: Unless mother is good, how the children are good?

Yamuna: Tora(?). Tora is one of the biggest, and he helped more than anybody. He would come home, and she would read to them from the Bhagavatam. But he would tell her, “Oh, if you don’t serve Krsna, you must serve maya.” And he would say, “That’s maya.” He would tell mother that at seven years old, and he would explain to her. Swamiji, by the end of our classes, he was actually understanding the Srimad-Bhagavatam, being able to listen to it and ask questions about it.

Prabhupada: He gave you questions?

Malati: Even at the temple when there would be lectures, and then the lecturer says, “Are there any questions?” Tora would raise his hand, and he’d ask very intelligent questions.

Prabhupada: Then why not keep him with me, your mother and he? (devotees cheer)

Yamuna: Oh, ho, ho! Haribol!

Prabhupada: I think your mother will not agree to that.

Malati: Maybe his mother needs him. The mother needs Tora to keep her in Krsna consciousness.

Prabhupada: [break] He’s going to be a Narada. Narada, when he was five years old, he was thinking that “My mother is too much attached to me.” And when his mother died, he thought free. “Oh, I am now free.”

Janardana: At the age of five.

Prabhupada: Yes, at the age of five. And at once he went out. In his previous life. Then from five years till the end of life he cultivated Krsna consciousness, and next life he became Narada.

Yamuna: Oh. [break]

Prabhupada: I think that is described in the first part of our Srimad-Bhagavatam. That story is there, how he convert, how he became Narada. [break]

Malati: Twice a month he would visit his father. His father is a demon. So Tore carries in his pocket one nice picture of Swamiji and one nice… On the back is written, tava kara kamala vare. And he sits and says that under his breath because if his father heard, his father gets mad.

Prabhupada: This is the age for injecting Krsna consciousness. If children are taught Krsna consciousness from this age, the face of the world will be different. [break] …but they are not Hindus. They have got also obstinacy like that. [break] It is very important. “I thought in that way. When my mother died, as the devotees of the Lord think, I also thought in that way. What is that? ‘Oh, it is a grace of the Lord. My mother is now dead.’ Because she is the, I mean to say, real cause of my nonfreedom. So she is now dead. Then I am free.” It is very contradiction from the materialistic point of view. It is said that, bhaktanam sam abhipsatah. “As the devotees think, so I also in that way thought.” What is that? Anugraham manyamanah. “I thought it a special grace of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.” Anugraham manyamanah pratistham disam uttaram: “And I at once took leave of my so-called home and went away.” So that is the difference between the devotees of the Lord and materialistic persons. When their materialistic relationship, comforts, are taken away, they think “Oh, it is all grace.” And the materialistic person, when their materialistic comforts are increased, they think, “It is grace.” Ya nisa sarva-bhutanam tasmin jagrati sam… That is also stated in the Bhagavad-gita. Just like… There is a crude example. I think I have cited this example many times, that a foolish patient thinks that increase of fever is very nice. Fever, so what should be the ideal? Fever should decrease. But those who are less intelligent, they think, “Yes, it must increase.” (chuckles) There is a drama in Bengali that in a house a doctor came to diagnose. There were two patients, the housewife and the maidservant. So doctor said, “The maidservant’s fever is 105, so there is some anxiety. I give some medicine. And the, that landlady, she has no fever practically, 99, so there is no anxiety.” But the landlady became angry, that “This doctor is useless. I am the landlady. I have got 99, and my maidservant 105. And maidservant should have 98. I should have 110!” (laughter) This is the mentality. The modern civilization is trying to increase the degree of fever to 110 degrees. And, you know, as soon as the degree comes to 107 it is death. Do you know that? If the fever increases to hundred and… Therefore as soon as the high fever is there, the doctor try to decrease it by icebags and so many things because to come to the fever degree, 107 or 8, means immediate death. So the modern civilization, they are trying to increase the degree of material fever, and they have come to the point, 107 degree—atomic bomb. Now they are going to die. You see? The American atom bomb or the Russian atom bomb will kill the whole material scientists’ advancement. You see? So this is the… So, and devotees, they want to decrease the fever. Decrease the fever. Therefore the highest, ideal life, according to Vedic civilization: brahmanas, Vaisnava. They decrease their demands of the body. Minimum demand. You see? There is amongst the brahmana, not now, in the Vedic system, the unca-vrtti. It is called unca-vrtti. Unca-vrtti means they will go the paddy field, and after the cultivator takes all the paddies, some paddies are thrown away. They will collect those paddies only. Just like birds, they collect. They collect those paddies, and that they will eat, not even beg, ask anybody for any morsel of food. So completely… And in the Bhagavata, Sukadeva Gosvami recommends that “Oh, this open field is your bed, this is your pillow, this is your pot, and the water in river is sufficient water, the tree is full of fruits, and in the cave, there is sufficient apartment. So why should you go, anyone, to ask for your shelter, for your food?” Kasmad bhajanti kavayor dhana-durmadandhan: “Why should you approach the materialistic, puffed- up, monied men to give you some help?” So Sukadeva Gosvami was strictly following this, strictly following, completely independent. That is not possible at the present day. (chuckles) If we imitate, that will be not good. We have to depose(?). Our Gosvamis, they have prescribed yukta-vairagya: accept everything in relationship with Krsna. Then it is yukta-vairagya. It is also vairagya. Suska-vairagya and yukta-vairagya. Suska-vairagya means simply renunciation without assimilation. Mayavadi sect, Sankara sect, they have got stringent laws for renunciation. But Vaisnavas, they have no stringent law. They accept everything as Krsna-prasadam, actually offering Krsna, working for Krsna, living for Krsna. This is the best use. My Guru Maharaja used to say, “The best use of a bad bargain.” Everything in Krsna relationship. That is yukta-vairagya. Nirbandhah krsna-sambandhe yukta-vairagyam ucyate. Vairagya means detachment. So when we are attached to Krsna, automatically we are detached to maya. Not artificially we want to be detached from maya. Just like theoretically I know that I am not this body, but the bodily necessities are there because I am encaged in the body. Therefore the bodily necessities—eating, sleeping, mating, defending—should be done in relationship with Krsna. Then it is all right. Then my consciousness is always in Krsna, and I am detached to my bodily demands. And those who are not Krsna conscious, their bodily demands is on the materialistic platform. They are going on, increasing the degree of fever and coming to the 107 degree. You are also going tomorrow?

Devotee (2): Yes.

Prabhupada: That’s nice. [break] Your golden cup is very nice.

Guest: Thank you. I’m glad you like it.

Prabhupada: [break] …gold plate. What did he cost?

Guest: Twenty-dollars.

Prabhupada: So I’ll offer one day sweet rice to Krsna in this pot. I have asked already Govinda dasi to make little sweet rice and offer to Krsna. Then the pot will be used. Yes. [break] …India still, amongst the Hindu family, whenever they use some new thing, household, they’ll offer first of all to the Deity. Every family has got Deity. Every Hindu family, especially the high class, brahmanas, ksatriyas, they must have Narayana-sila. You know Narayana-sila? Salagrama.

Janardana: Stone.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is worshiped in every family. Arcye sila-dhih. Sila means stone. So arcye, the worshipable… I think this is correct.

Janardana: Yeah, it’s correct.

Prabhupada: Yes. Past five-twenty. What is your time?

Guest: I have twenty-five after.

Prabhupada: This is right?

Yamuna: Yes. Well, no. It’s five minutes slow.

Janardana: Think so? I don’t know. My watch is ten or five minutes fast. My watch is always fast.

Prabhupada: Oh. Oh, this is still slow. This is correct time now.

Guru dasa: Your watch is still drop proof.

Prabhupada: Because it is correct to the church bell. Yes. Church cannot be… (laughter)

Janardana: So the ceremony will be at six, yes?

Prabhupada: Yes. Six-thirty. One hour after. Hare Krsna. [break] (devotees offer obeisances)

Prabhupada: So take care of your child very nicely. She is Krsna conscious child. Yes. And Lilavati’s child has grown very nice?

Devotee woman: Oh, very nice.

Yamuna: Oh, it’s so beautiful.

Prabhupada: (laughs) And what about that girl?

Malati: Tulasi devi? Oh, very nice.

Yamuna: Oh, Karnapura is beautiful! He’s the best little boy you could ever imagine.

Malati: He’s already brahmacari.

Yamuna: He’s just fantastic. Upendra really loves that kid. Upendra picks up Karnapura and Upendra doesn’t know about children. And he’ll take Karnapura and he’ll make him kiss every picture in the temple, (laughter) especially at the feet of Lord Caitanya he’ll go, “Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna.” Karnapura will go, “bang, bang.” (laughter)

Prabhupada: (laughing) Very nice. So Murari(?), you have got to say anything?

Murari: I have got to say anything? No. I was just visiting.

Prabhupada: Thank you. (end)