Room Conversation
with His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada
London, August 10, 1971

Syamasundara: There’s already a big church on it.

Dhananjaya: That may be better, because there’s more space there.

Syamasundara: We haven’t seen it yet. We haven’t gone inside yet.

Mr. Arnold: I’ll try and make arrangements to go and have a look at that.

Syamasundara: And also that other one around the corner.

Mr. Arnold: The (indistinct) chapel? That’s a very large building. But you can’t go outwards(?). You can’t go up. And there’s no other facility.

Syamasundara: (indistinct)

Mr. Arnold: Near Oxford. A very large building, but it’s, it’s in a bad state of repair.

Syamasundara: We’ll concentrate on the other ones.

Dhananjaya: (indistinct) best as far as the land’s concerned. It’s situated in the biggest area of space.

Syamasundara: I have to try to find out when George is coming back.

Prabhupada: George can give his…, what is called?

Syamasundara: Endorsement.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Syamasundara: Endorsement?

Prabhupada: No. What is called? Reaction, or…

Dhananjaya: His qualities?

Prabhupada: No. The show, what is called?

Syamasundara: Concert.

Prabhupada: Concert show.

Syamasundara: Yes.

Prabhupada: Better he can raise funds from New York, but…

Syamasundara: Well, most of the money that they get from these concerts is not on the concert itself but on the record album and the movie that comes from it, the film.

Dhananjaya: And the royalties.

Syamasundara: Royalties from making a record of music and the film of the show.

Prabhupada: Uh-huh.

Syamasundara: Just like Bangladesh. They raised about a million dollars from the concert and nineteen million from the record album and film. So those two don’t require any special place. They could be anywhere.

Dhananjaya: Better here though, because George has never made any public appearances…

Syamasundara: Actually I think it would be just as big here.

Dhananjaya: Yes. If the result, if people knew, if it was…

Syamasundara: He’s never made a public appearance. Only one in America.

Dhananjaya: Everyone from all over Europe will be coming to see him, without a doubt… In Europe there’s about 350 million people, almost 400 million.

Syamasundara: Actually he made two statements that, well, they practically promised to do this. He said in Los Angeles when he saw the Deities: “Oh, we must have a place like this in London.’’ And then in New York, because I said, “Well, we don’t want to be on your show here. We volunteer. You promised…,’’ I said, “You promised us to be on the show in New York, and he said, “I know I promised, and I must fulfill my word, I gave you my word, but I’m just asking you if you will not be on this show, and later I’ll have another special concert for Hare Krsna.”

Prabhupada: So remind him.

Syamasundara: Yeah.

Prabhupada: What about these Hindu communities?

Syamasundara: Well, that we can do during this time you’re here. We can organize it. We can at least inspire them to help us.

Prabhupada: Are they willing to cooperate with us or not? Because they have already opened some Hindu temple.

Syamasundara: Yeah.

Dhananjaya: There’s not so much cooperation from them.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Syamasundara: They want their own local temple.

Dhananjaya: They come here and they stay for arotik, they take a little prasada, they give some money, then go.

Syamasundara: They, the Indians know how to organize those things better that we do. They know how to collect money from individual Indians in their neighborhood, one, two pounds at a time. They can do that.

Mr. Arnold: We went out to an Indian concert one night at Southall.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Mr. Arnold: This was…, we were very welcome, made very welcome indeed. And they had like a very small television, and they had pictures of the Deities there, and Hare Krsna, (indistinct) about the chanting, and they loved it. I should mention there must have been about five hundred people in that hall.

Syamasundara: There’s no Hindu temples on the West End, West End.

Mr. Arnold: There’s one in (indistinct).

Syamasundara: Oh, there is?

Mr. Arnold: Sikh.

Syamasundara: Sikh, yeah. But I mean Hindu temple.

Dhananjaya: I don’t think the leaders, the leaders of these communities, they’re not so willing to raise funds on our behalf.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Dhananjaya: I don’t think the leaders of the Hindu communities, they’re not so willing to raise money on our behalf. They’ll do it for their own functions, and their own temple requirements, but not on our behalf. And it’s a weak…

Prabhupada: Huh?

Syamasundara: I’m thinking of the way Sadha Jivat Lal(?) raised so many lakhs of rupees, by selling, organizing, highly organized…

Prabhupada: No, no. If they will, they can.

Syamasundara: Yeah.

Prabhupada: But he says they’re not willing. That is the difference.

Mr. Arnold: I don’t think they’re willing at this stage, my lord, because there’s been so little done for them, and I feel, and I…

Syamasundara: Well, we’re having Jagannatha parade, Prabhupada is speaking…

Mr. Arnold: Yes, but in their own communities, we, I suggested a long time ago that in fact there should be an appeal, start off with an appeal in the local papers.

Prabhupada: The priestly class, they will make propaganda against us: “Oh, they are mlecchas, they are Europeans, they are Americans. What they can do? It is not good.’’ Because India, the caste system is very strong. So I am giving the Europeans and Americans the opportunities to become brahmana, they are not satisfied.

Dhananjaya: Also they say that here in our temple they don’t let anyone else speak, so why should we…, they, why should we let them speak? This is what they say. Because we don’t allow them to come, you know, and talk on Hinduism, so they say, “Why should we ask, let them do it here, in our community?”

Syamasundara: Still, they’re asking us to supply them pujaris.

:Prabhupada: Huh?

Syamasundara: They’re asking us to supply them pujaris. Out of all their community, not one man will volunteer to be the pujari.

:Prabhupada: They’re asking us for pujari?

Syamasundara: Yeah.

Prabhupada: So why not take charge?

Syamasundara: At the Hindu center, didn’t they ask, a couple, “Come and live there, be pujari,’’ and…? I was hearing that.

Prabhupada: But we cannot become pujari…

Syamasundara: Under their, under their direction. That’s the trouble.

Dhananjaya: So they have, they have already installed a Deity. They have a Deity of Vasudeva in the Hindu Center, but He’s not dressed. He’s standing with cakra, but He’s not, He’s not clothed very nicely, and the room is not decorated very nicely at all. He’s just standing there. And they asked for a pujari to come and look after. But they…, you see what they’re thinking, they’re thinking, “Oh, we’re pious. We’re pious for acquiring Deity.’’ You see? “Deity is only for the lower class people, so they can see, or they will be reminded that God is here. But we already know that God is here.’’ So they turn and sit with their back to the Deity and they talk like this, and the Deity is here.

Prabhupada: No. They, as Dhananjaya said, that are not willing to cooperate with us.

Syamasundara: Well, I’m not so sure. They used to be when I was here, and I think if you have a Bhagavata-saptaha, if the weather stays, and the weather’s any good… I don’t know.

Prabhupada: But the Bhagavata-saptaha, if they are willing to cooperate with our Bhagavata-saptaha.

Syamasundara: Yeah, that’s what I mean.

Prabhupada: Some, some priest come from India, and they cooperate with me. But if they have a feeling of noncooperation with us, then what is the use of panditas and Bhagavata-saptaha?

Syamasundara: Saturday night you’ll be speaking in the Hindu Center?

Dhananjaya: On the fifteenth.

Syamasundara: Saturday, next Saturday night. So that will be a good indication. We’ll know after then, if they cooperated, if they’ll come. I think there’ll be a big crowd.

Dhananjaya: Actually, you see, it’s the younger Indian families also. They’re English. They’re not Indian. They’re more English than Indian. Their children, they don’t speak Hindi, and they’re playing just like Western children. So they’re, when they see us, when we, when devotees go there, to the communities, they’re so eager to take the books ’cause they can read them and they can relate with, with Krsna consciousness somehow. Because they go every Sunday to their meetings there, and they hear the priest, and it’s all boring. It’s for the older, for the old. It’s sentimental. That’s all. So the older people, they’re coming, and they’re listening to the readings of the Ramayana and so many other things. And the young people, they know, “Oh, these, these European people and American people, they must be doing something genuine. Otherwise why are they sacrificing so much?’’

Prabhupada: So how to attract the Indian younger people?

Dhananjaya: But then again, they’re influenced…

Syamasundara: They’ve asked us in that Hindu Center to teach classes.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Syamasundara: They’ve asked us to teach classes also in that center.

Prabhupada: So why don’t you do that?

Syamasundara: Not many people come, though. But we could attract them to come. Advertise and attract.

Dhananjaya: See, that…, their main function is on a Sunday, and the last time Your Divine Grace came there, last year, that’s where they hold their meetings, in that hall. But it’s full of so much nonsense. They have pictures of Vivekananda…

Prabhupada: Why don’t you call that Dr. Shah?

Syamasundara: Dr. Shah.

Prabhupada: He cannot help us?

Syamasundara: I don’t know. We’re still not sure about him.

Prabhupada: And that one Mr. Ahujya came?

Syamasundara: Uh-huh. There are many men here who respect us, who would help us…

Prabhupada: He wanted me to go to his house.

Syamasundara: Ahh.

Prabhupada: From that Auckland.

Syamasundara: Oh, he’s from Auckland.

Prabhupada: So he visited there…

Syamasundara: Oh, that’s right, I know him. I have his card, yeah.

Prabhupada: You have got his card?

Syamasundara: Yeah.

Prabhupada: Why don’t you call him just now?

Syamasundara: Yeah, I have his… I think I have his phone number and everything too.

Prabhupada: So call him so he can come here just now. He was talking seriously about “You please come immediately.”

Syamasundara: I have his Delhi address too.

Prabhupada: Now suppose the estimate is 250,000 pounds. So how much the bank may advance?

Mr. Arnold: I don’t think the bank, in this state of, of, umm, the one at King Street, Hammersmith…

Prabhupada: Huh?

Mr. Arnold: The one at Kings Street, Hammersmith. I don’t really think the bank will advance you anything. Umm, you see you’ve got nothing to mortgage.

Prabhupada: Oh.

Mr. Arnold: This is the first thing. You see, when we’re talking of Kingsway Hall, you know, the big one, before, well here you had a bank on the site, and they were rather anxious to keep their premises, and consequently they would have loaned us money to retain their site. Any of these four that we’re dealing with at the moment, there are no other banks or building societies on the site. This is what I think is, is absolutely imperative, that within the…

Prabhupada: The bank will not be prepared to advance in such property?

Mr. Arnold: Well, they may well do, but it would only be… One couldn’t guarantee that they would be expected to. But the bank manager, where the account of this temple is kept, they may be tempted to loan a half or three quarters of it, if they think that the thing is a good… I mean, this site at Kings Street, Hammersmith, for instance, if we don’t buy it, then the suggestion is that within the very foreseeable future the place will be pulled down to build a large hotel, which means to say that the site is very valuable. On this score, the bank may well be tempted to loan you some money, just on the site alone, (indistinct) the premises. They would be interested.

Prabhupada: Then means that a church turned out a new building. So that is a big stake.

Mr. Arnold: Mr. Dwyer was very anxious that the Dawson Place should have been purchased, or some house of a similar nature, because these can be used.

Syamasundara: (re: Mr. Ahujya) He’ll be calling up in a few minutes. He’s just gone out. She said she would tell him. He has an Indian Handicrafts house.

Prabhupada: Suppose we can arrange for the money, somehow or other, half. Half a million required?

Mr. Arnold: For, for the new premises.

Prabhupada: One fourth million if we can arrange. So is it possible to arrange for the other one fourth million from the bank?

Mr. Arnold: I think that if you’re putting up a quarter of it, a quarter of a million, then I think there’s every certainty of the bank loaning you the other quarter. I think this is quite a definite circumstance.

Dhananjaya: See, because what they do is they loan the money on the strength of the value of the property. If the value of the property is 500,000 pounds, then they’ll be quite…

Prabhupada: So why don’t you try for this property?

Syamasundara: Oh, yes.

Prabhupada: Then I will need the help of this Mr. (indistinct). I can try to raise that one fourth million, and one fourth million if the bank advances, then we can negotiate immediately.

Syamasundara: It would be nice if the Indians could help.

Prabhupada: Do some practical proposal.

Syamasundara: Yeah.

Prabhupada: So far George is concerned, now it is more or less Utopian.

Syamasundara: Yes.

Prabhupada: Because…

Syamasundara: You can’t count on him at all.

Prabhupada: …if he was willing, he would have done long ago, but he is not very serious.

Syamasundara: Well, I’ve never asked him for it, to do that.

Prabhupada: So what is this asking? When he visited our Los Angeles temple, he appreciated and he said, “Why not a temple like this in London?”

Syamasundara: Well he’s…, I…, He’s been waiting for me to come here and talk to him here about it. I haven’t…

Prabhupada: But it is difficult to meet him.

Syamasundara: Well, he’s just out of station now. As soon as he’s in station I’ll get him, I’ll meet him.

Prabhupada: Why don’t you call him in New York?

Syamasundara: I don’t know where he is.

Prabhupada: That you are getting.

Syamasundara: I don’t know where he is.

Prabhupada: But they can say, his men here.

Syamasundara: His men here won’t say. They don’t know themselves usually. Only his wife or one other, two persons know.

Prabhupada: So his wife is here?

Syamasundara: They’re all with him. His manager, Terry, is there.

Dhananjaya: Bob Dylan would know where he is.

Syamasundara: Yeah, but Dylan changes his number about every two weeks. I have his old number from a year ago. I’m sure it’s not the same.

Prabhupada: If he agrees, he can in one night, he can.

Syamasundara: Oh, I have one number in New York who would know where he is. Al Abramovitz(?).

Mr. Arnold: I wonder whether this large records firm in New Oxford Street…

Syamasundara: Warner Brothers?

Mr. Arnold: No, no. Record. James something or other. James…

Syamasundara: Oh, right over here.

Mr. Arnold: Yes, in New Oxford Street.

Devotee: Yeah.

Mr. Arnold: They’re agents for practically every…

Syamasundara: Yeah, the, one of the, man who works there, big man, is also with George now. They might know where he is.

Mr. Arnold: …something to do with that particular firm.

Devotee: Derrick Taylor.

Dhananjaya: Kenny Records.

Syamasundara: Kenny, Kenny Records. Well, there are several record agents. They might know…

Mr. Arnold: The whole building is taken up, and it all comes under the roof of James something or other, or agencies.

Syamasundara: Yeah.

Mr. Arnold: Now in New Oxford Street, you can see it very easily. There’s a Midland Bank, takes up the ground floor.

Syamasundara: It’s right over here, isn’t it?

Mr. Arnold: Yeah.

Prabhupada: So, so long I am here, let us try some tangible, not simply proposal.

Syamasundara: Yeah. Now we’ve seen how nice places we can get, so we have to work on these other angles: the Indian community and George.

Mr. Arnold: The bank

Syamasundara: And the bank. There’s… What about Mr. Gopal? Did you see him? He’s very wealthy.

Dhananjaya: Yes, but he helps by donating material things. Not material things, but he likes to give things rather than…

Syamasundara: No, he’s never been tactfully approached for anything else. He used to like us. He’d come around all the time. He lost his son, so he adopted us, like that. He used to give us presents, money.

Dhananjaya: The most he’s given is carpets.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Dhananjaya: Carpets. He was giving carpets. The purple carpet in the temple.

Syamasundara: The carpet in the temple cost how many hundreds of pounds?

Dhananjaya: Three hundred pounds. And the material for the Rathayatra cart. All the material.

Prabhupada: Where he is?

Dhananjaya: He lives in Stretton.

Syamasundara: Yeah.

Dhananjaya: Near Stretton.

Syamasundara: Do you have his phone number? I’ll call him, call him. He’s, I’m sure he…, we could count on him to give something for…

Prabhupada: So take their consult, what price they want.

Dhananjaya: There’s also Nandalal Chabria, Mr. Chabria’s son, he’s here.

Syamasundara: He’s not very wealthy.

Dhananjaya: No, he’s not wealthy.

Prabhupada: This Chabria is here?

Syamasundara: Yes. His son.

Dhananjaya: Nandalal.

Syamasundara: Yes.

Prabhupada: Nandalal?

Syamasundara: Yeah.

Prabhupada: What is his father’s name?

Syamasundara: Rama, Ramachand.

Prabhupada: Oh. Ramachand.

Dhananjaya: There’s Mr. Padma(?).

Syamasundara: Yeah. Those men might help do legwork, but they’re not wealthy in themselves.

Prabhupada: So you raise one fourth million.

Syamasundara: Okay. (begins laughing)

Prabhupada: And Mr. Arnold will help for the bank one fourth.

Mr. Arnold: I don’t think I can get my bank to loan it, my lord, but certainly we’ll go and see the bank… (laughter by devotees)

Prabhupada: And we’ll pay gradually to the bank. Then we can immediately…

Mr. Arnold: You see, the tragedy is, my lord, they haven’t got one account in this temple in my bank.

Syamasundara: Then why don’t we go and take an account in his bank?

Dhananjaya: Mr. Arnold’s in the Midland Bank.

Prabhupada: So why not open all the accounts there? Or ask the present bank that we are proposing this. Otherwise Midland Bank is a famous bank, it is nice bank.

Mr. Arnold: Well I suggest that they, they should go to the National Westminster and tell them that you’ll want this loan for…

Prabhupada: But they agreed, National Westminster.

Syamasundara: Yeah.

Prabhupada: To agree to pay on account of this Kingsway.

Mr. Arnold: Oh, no. That was Lloyd’s that agreed then, because they were trying to save their premises. They knew perfectly well that if it went to someone else then the whole premises, sooner or later, would be torn down.

Prabhupada: That was it.

Mr. Arnold: Yeah.

Syamasundara: So he’s, he promised them perpetual lease.

Prabhupada: At what price it was being sold?

Dhananjaya: Two and a half million pounds.

Mr. Arnold: Two and a half, which is exactly the price that I told them to put the bid in for. I went over…

Prabhupada: Two and a half million.

Mr. Arnold: Yes.

Syamasundara: What Dayananda didn’t tell us is that the bank was prepared to finance the whole thing.

Prabhupada: Huh!

Syamasundara: The whole thing.

Mr. Arnold: Well the bank and the building society.

Syamasundara: One building society and one bank combinedly would have financed the whole thing, but he sent us a letter that said only two-thirds, they would finance two-thirds.

Prabhupada: So he is not very intelligent. A missed opportunity.

Mr. Arnold: See, I went to the Midland Bank, to various departments, and I found out almost to within a penny what exactly what it would raise. Of course, some of the people that put in the bids it happened were Midland Bank customers. I know I shouldn’t have done it, but I did it, and I…

Prabhupada: The bank was prepared to finance it, and he missed that opportunity?

Syamasundara: Yeah, and he didn’t even tell us.

Mr. Arnold: The bank was only going to loan two-thirds. Then the building society next door was going to help, and also the National Westminster was prepared to help, I’m quite sure. But of course, I think…

Prabhupada: It was not tactfully done.

Syamasundara: No.

Prabhupada: Not intelligent.

Syamasundara: He didn’t tell us.

Prabhupada: He is not very intelligent.

Syamasundara: Had he told us a hundred percent financing…

Prabhupada: Hm?

Mr. Arnold: I pleaded with him to send you a letter. Of course you told him that to only put in a bid for a million and a half, and I pleaded with him to send you a letter that said no, step the bid up to two and a half million. Because quite honestly, I feel that the place was so vast, and most of it was let—places like Decca Recordings, Kodak, things like this—that most of the repayments to the banks would have been met quite easily.

Prabhupada: I asked him also to consult some expert.

Syamasundara: Well, somehow or other…

Prabhupada: That was two and a half million, and it is half million.

Syamasundara: Yeah. Perhaps it’s better if we go step by step.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Syamasundara: Someday we’ll go up into the big place. There will always be a big place.

Dhananjaya: But there was not even a thousand pounds here.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Dhananjaya: There wasn’t even a thousand… At the time, there was not one, even one thousand pounds in the temple fund, and they were going for a two and a half, one and a half million deal.

Prabhupada: No. The bank was prepared to finance. That is the point.

Mr. Arnold: You see, I sort of schooled Dayananda and told him to go over and have words with the bank manager, promising that, you know, if they helped us to fund this building, then we would guarantee them tenure, and instead of paying interest back on the, on the loan, we, for bids, we would give them a guaranteed tenure, or peppercorn rent, but we would pay the original loan back, so that there was no charge at all, it was just…

Prabhupada: Anyway, na tasya socananarthi. Don’t lament which is gone. (laughter)

Mr. Arnold: Yes, thank you, thank you.

Dhananjaya: Don’t cry over spilt milk.

Prabhupada: That is Sanskrit, na tasya socananarthi.

Syamasundara: Actually, for a place in the center of London like this, it’s nice to have offices and a small chapel and maybe a bookstore, but we would not be able to recruit many people to come on a residential basis, being in the center of the city. But in a place a little bit further out, like in a student neighborhood, everybody comes.

Prabhupada: What? Student neighborhood?

Syamasundara: Yes, they’ll come.

Prabhupada: So, why not negotiate that?

Syamasundara: Daily they’ll come and then gradually become devotees.

Prabhupada: No, among the young men there is hankering after this sort of an institution. Everyone asks me, “Why the younger generation is attracted to this movement?’’ so many reporters. So somehow or other, I reply, “The young men, they’re receptive, they can understand the value, whereas the old fools cannot.’’ (laughing)

Mr. Arnold: Well, my wife and I, we can. We’re old.

Prabhupada: (laughing) You are excepted. You are excepted. Sometimes old men are called old fools. (laughing)

Mr. Arnold: My wife is twice…, she’s older that I am, and she’s made me return because sometimes I’ve lost my temper with, over, you know, various things that happen…

Prabhupada: The thing is that you are liberal to understand things as they are. But generally, old men, they are sophisticated. They do not like to accept anything new: “Go away.’’ Or they are not serious about religion. That is another thing. Actually…, as I see that old, older section, they have been habituated in a different way, so they do not want to change (indistinct). That is the difference. So “Here is a nice thing; you should accept it.’’ They are not inclined in that way. All stereotyped. Just like you have said last night, I told Lord Zet… (end)