Room Conversation with Krishna Tiwari
His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada
London, May 25, 1973, (new98)
Prabhupada: Proper. Kanpur proper.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes. We were originally from a village, but we’re living in Kanpur now.
Prabhupada: Kanpur. It’s a big city.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Prabhupada: Industrial city.
Krishna Tiwari: My name is Krishna Tiwari.
Prabhupada: Tiwari.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Prabhupada: Oh. In Kanpur I had an old friend—he was just like my father—Tiwari. Very rich man. They have got their temple.
Krishna Tiwari: Which place? I probably know it.
Prabhupada: In Kanpur there is a big temple that belongs to the Tiwari family. It is famous temple. Many people go there to visit.
Krishna Tiwari: I haven’t lived there too long. Lucknow, we came to Lucknow, and…
Prabhupada: The temple is very old temple. So the proprietors of the temple are brahmanas, Tiwari. So the eldest member, old Mr. Tiwari, was a very nice, great devotee. At home he had Deity, Rukmini- Krsna. He was worshiping at home Rukmini-Krsna, Dvaraka.
Syamasundara: Mr. Tiwari is a well-known scientist. Biolo… Biologist?
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: Molecular biology?
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: Studying at U. C…, University of California at Irvine.
Krishna Tiwari: I don’t know how famous, but… (laughs).
Svarupa Damodara: Studying biology and molecular biology. You were in University of Southern California before, right?
Krishna Tiwari: No, University of California to Los Angeles. UCLA.
Prabhupada: So:
idam hi pumsas tapasah srutasya va svistasya suktasya ca buddhi-dattayoh avicyuto ’rthah kavibhir nirupito yad-uttamasloka-gunanuvarnanam [SB 1.5.22]
So biology… Biology means the scientist dealing in living entities?
Krishna Tiwari: Right.
Prabhupada: So I don’t think your science has reached to the point to find out the measurement of the living entity.
Krishna Tiwari: Well, that is very true.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Krishna Tiwari: That is very true. That is very true.
Prabhupada: But we get information that there is a measurement. kesagra-sata-bhagasya, satamsah sadrsatmakah [Cc. Madya 19.140] The tip of the hair you divide into one hundred parts, and take that part, again divide into one hundred parts, that is the measurement. That is one ten-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. How far do you agree with this?
Krishna Tiwari: I don’t know. (laughs) I don’t know what you mean by that, but of course it is very true that we do not know much about life, and scientists are the first to agree to that, that we know very little.
Prabhupada: That is real scientist.
Krishna Tiwari: But the question is, on the left hand… Of course, in my opinion, and I think in the opinion of many scientists, there is no difference between a scientist or a common man or a religious man. Both…, all these people are trying to find out about their environment. So are the religious men. They want to find out more about themselves, about the nature they live in. They want to know more about it. They want to find out why they’re here, how are they to live in this world, and so I do not think there is any difference between the two.
Prabhupada: No, there cannot be difference.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes. And the only difference is that where the scientist deals with the phenomena of nature and wants to show it to others. In a strict sense he can tell how he (indistinct) better; others can go and say it. Sometimes it is very hard, I think, for all these reasons, for the religious leaders to do that.
Prabhupada: So as so far the differences, there is no difference, because just like this body: the body has got different parts—the fingers, the hands, the eyes, the legs, so many different—but the whole purpose is to serve the body. Either with the finger or eyes or hands or legs, the whole purpose is centered on the soul of the complete whole body. Similarly, Bhagavata says that whatever you may—you may be scientist, you may be philosopher, you may be an engineer, you may be a poet, you may be sociologist, politician, whatever you may be—their purpose should be avicyutah arthah. Avicyutah means infallible purpose. Avicyutah arthah kavibhih nirupitah. “It has been decided by great learned scholar,” says “all of them should be engaged in glorifying the Supreme.” Avicyuto ’rthah kavibhir nirupito yad-uttamasloka-gunanuvarnanam. The scientists, from their angle of vision, should describe the glory of the Lord: how this biology is working by the manipulation of the Supreme Lord. Similarly chemists, physicists, engineers, politicians, there are different departments, but all of them should join together, congregation, and from their different scientific point, angle of vision, they should glorify the Supreme Lord.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Prabhupada: Just like I was speaking that the measurement of the living entity is such and such. So how God has become so small? Anor aniyan mahato mahiyan. This is… This we can simply imagine: one ten-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. I don’t think any scientist can have any measuring instrument.
Krishna Tiwari: I think that can be measured.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Krishna Tiwari: I think they can measure that.
Prabhupada: How think?
Krishna Tiwari: It can be measured.
Prabhupada: It can be measured?
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Prabhupada: It can be measured; otherwise how it is said?
Krishna Tiwari: Very easily measured.
Prabhupada: Ah! It can be measured, but they say there is no soul.
Krishna Tiwari: Scientists say there’s no soul?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Guest: Because they don’t know how to look for it.
Prabhupada: Therefore, how they’ll measure? That way it is impossible for them to measure.
Devotee: They can’t find it.
Prabhupada: They cannot find it.
Krishna Tiwari: But nobody else has.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Krishna Tiwari: Nobody else has found it.
Prabhupada: Yes. We, I said, this is the measurement.
Krishna Tiwari: But since nobody else has found it…
Prabhupada: Nobody else has found it, that is different thing, but the measurement is there in the sastra.
Krishna Tiwari: How to measure it then?
Prabhupada: How to measure, that is a different thing, but the measurement is there.
Krishna Tiwari: What is the measurement?
Prabhupada: The one ten-thousandth part of the tip of the hair.
Krishna Tiwari: Well that’s very easy to measure.
Prabhupada: So why don’t you find it.
Krishna Tiwari: But that’s probably the reason. Nothing is there, just a number, because…
Prabhupada: Huh?
Krishna Tiwari: This is just a number, because one-thousandth part of hair is just a big number that…
Prabhupada: Not one thousandth. One ten-thousandth.
Krishna Tiwari: That doesn’t matter. You can make it one millionth.
Prabhupada: How’s that?
Krishna Tiwari: It will be a measure of a distance, which is very easy. That cannot be a source.
Prabhupada: So… No. That cannot be so easy. It is definitely said, jivah bhagasya vijneyah. Jiva means solo, soul. Soul’s measurement is given there in the sastra.
Krishna Tiwari: Yeah, but what are the… This is the… I don’t know. This is the measurement, one thousandth of a…
Prabhupada: One ten-thousandth.
Krishna Tiwari: …of a tip of hair?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Krishna Tiwari: Well, that is… I don’t understand that, because that will be, at that time I think it was all right, because people thought nobody could measure one thousandth, ten-thousandth of the tip of a hair.
Prabhupada: I, we don’t say people could not measure. People could measure. People measured; therefore it is, the measurement is given there. It is not that people could not measure. People measured it, definitely, and then gave it, “This is the measure.”
Krishna Tiwari: Okay, so what you are trying to say? What symbolically it means, very small. Is that what it means? Is that what it means?
Prabhupada: Very small…, that small part is there in every body. The soul is there. Now, they, without finding it, they say soul is nirakara; there is no measurement. That is my point. I say there is akara, form.
Krishna Tiwari: There is a form of soul, according to you.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. But they say there is no form. That is my point.
Krishna Tiwari: Well, they don’t know probably, at this moment. But I don’t…, I…, we have trouble, at least I have trouble, in understanding whether anybody else knows about soul. According to you…
Prabhupada: Now, so far we are laymen, we have no instrument to measure. We simply hear from the sastra and we try to perceive, that’s all. But there is something. That measurement very, may be very, very small, but there is the substance. That is our point.
Krishna Tiwari: Right. But, I mean, with due respect to sastras, after all, in my opinion sastras are written by very intelligent people, and how so ever intelligent they would have been five thousand years ago, they could not have…
Prabhupada: Not five thousand years.
Krishna Tiwari: Or ten thousand?
Prabhupada: No. You cannot calculate.
Krishna Tiwari: How… Well, this is a different game then.
Prabhupada: No. We have got… Because this, if we take on the strength of sastra, we understand that after the birth of Brahma… Brahma created this universe.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Prabhupada: Lord Brahma.
Krishna Tiwari: Right.
Prabhupada: But, uh, Brahma’s one day you cannot calculate.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes. I agree with that.
Prabhupada: So now, at the present moment, we are in one day’s…, Brahma’s one day we have passed only half.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Prabhupada: Because in the Bhagavad-gita it is said sahasra-yuga-paryantam ahar yad brahmano viduh [Bg. 8.17]. So one yuga is calculated to be forty-three lakhs of years. Now…
Krishna Tiwari: That is also 4.3 million years.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Krishna Tiwari: That is 4.3 million.
Prabhupada: Yes, and multiplied by 1000.
Krishna Tiwari: OK, we’ve got 4.3 billion.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is, that is the duration of daytime, one daytime of Brahma, and similarly calculate night, similarly you calculate, that is twenty-four hours, one day and night. Similarly, you calculate one month.
Krishna Tiwari: Yeah, I understand that, Swamiji, but uh…
Prabhupada: In this way he lives for one hundred years, according to these calculations.
Krishna Tiwari: I can understand that, but, see, we do know. We do know the age of the earth, and we know better than anybody else does.
Prabhupada: How can you know?
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, we know. We know our own measurements, which are very reliable. Different people will come up with the same number, and we do not have to depend upon any, you know, round- about answer.
Prabhupada: No, we have to depend…
Krishna Tiwari: No, we don’t.
Prabhupada: You theories changes every year.
Krishna Tiwari: No… Well it changes (laughter), because it is very…
Prabhupada: Therefore we have to depend.
Krishna Tiwari: No. Change is the law of nature. Change is the law of nature. Change…
Prabhupada: “Change is the law of nature,” that’s fine…
Krishna Tiwari: And therefore…
Prabhupada: …but one should know the whole duration of change. Just like we know that sunrise, from the morning ’till evening, there are so many changes, but I know what is that changes. That is knowledge.
Krishna Tiwari: That is true, but you…
Prabhupada: But you cannot say that “I know seventh year. I do not know what is going to happen ninth, eighth year.”
Krishna Tiwari: No, that is not the point. Point is that…, point is how to, how long this earth where we all live… Now we’re talking about only this earth. How long this earth, we know, existed?
Prabhupada: I’m not talking of the earth. I’m talking of the whole universe.
Krishna Tiwari: Right. Well, we’ll talk about one object first, before we talk about universe next. (laughing)
Prabhupada: That means you are not in the knowledge.
Krishna Tiwari: No. But some of you, I mean, you want to talk about something, you want to start from something which is easy to comprehend and go further. How is it…
Prabhupada: Now, the whole universe is one unit.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I agree with philosophy…
Prabhupada: If you study my whole body, you cannot begin studying my nails.
Krishna Tiwari: But you have to study nails.
Prabhupada: That we, that will include.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Prabhupada: But, if you study my body, you have to study the whole body, not my nails or my hair.
Krishna Tiwari: No, we have to start somewhere.
Prabhupada: No. That is…
Atreya Rsi: The scientific process.
Prabhupada: Scientific process, you begin studying… Suppose you are studying biology, you begin from hair, do you mean to say?
Krishna Tiwari: Yes, but something I…, can I have my some doubts?
Prabhupada: No, no, first of all you answer me.
Krishna Tiwari: Yeah, I answer you because, uh…
Prabhupada: That because you are studying my body you begin studying from my hair?
Krishna Tiwari: Some place, some place. It is hair, eyes, ears, someplace.
Prabhupada: You think that is, uh, scientific?
Krishna Tiwari: Scientists will study… If they want to study a body, they study first outside, looking at what they can learn. Then after sometime it is stopped. Then one has to go inside.
Prabhupada: Oh, that’s all right. So our point of view is when we study the body, we study first of all the soul.
Krishna Tiwari: But how we know about soul?
Prabhupada: We know from the Vedic knowledge.
Krishna Tiwari: Yeah, well somebody said there is a soul, but the question is, unless we all realize, and there is a way of…
Prabhupada: We realize, everyone realize. As soon as the soul goes away, your body is lump of matter.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, well (laughs), this is just dead. I mean, I don’t know whether soul went away or not. I don’t know.
Prabhupada: You don’t know, but I know.
Krishna Tiwari: Well, that’s your belief.
Prabhupada: No belief. I’m taking…
Krishna Tiwari: That’s your belief.
Prabhupada: I’m taking my…
Krishna Tiwari: It’s my belief too that there’s a soul (laughing), but I, scientifically I don’t know.
Prabhupada: Your, your, your belief is also based on some scientific data.
Krishna Tiwari: No. No. Beliefs can be anything. But I can believe he’s out to kill me. He can believe I’m a bad man.
Prabhupada: No, no.
Krishna Tiwari: Belief has no foundation.
Prabhupada: No.
Krishna Tiwari: Not necessarily foundation.
Prabhupada: Belief, belief is there. Fact is not belief. Fact is fact.
Krishna Tiwari: Well fact has to be established.
Prabhupada: Established? Is established. I say, I say that this is the distinction between dead man and living man.
Krishna Tiwari: Will that extend to animals also?
Prabhupada: Anyone. Anyone.
Krishna Tiwari: According to our Hindu philosophy, I understand everything has a soul.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Everything. Everybody has a soul.
Krishna Tiwari: Well, that makes me doubtful, because if I go into my laboratory and I can create as many souls as I like. I can breed animals, as many as them I like.
Prabhupada: You cannot create. The souls are already there. You can find out…
Krishna Tiwari: Well I…, then I’m putting a lot of pressure on God. Every time I make lot of rats, I’m asking for rat souls.
Prabhupada: Rat has soul, yes.
Krishna Tiwari: I know, but that’s… Why, why then I can do it? When I can, or when I want them to be here, they will be here, not on the will of God. According to our concept of soul…
Syamasundara: If he’s in the laboratory, and he’s breeding rats, he’s making rats have sex life and have babies, then he is controlling the souls of those rats.
Prabhupada: He is not controlling. He is controlling the body.
Krishna Tiwari: Well, so body has soul.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Krishna Tiwari: So I’m controlling the soul.
Prabhupada: No.
Krishna Tiwari: No? I’m making them come.
Prabhupada: No. You cannot, you can…, you cannot control the soul.
Krishna Tiwari: I understand that.
Prabhupada: Otherwise… Otherwise, when the soul is gone from the body…
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Prabhupada: …you could replace one soul.
Krishna Tiwari: Well, that’s true. I mean that, I, uh, if you go… But my point is that the rat has a soul, and if God has something to do with the soul, then I should have no control of it.
Prabhupada: Apart from God. Apart… We’re not going to God. Just like here…
Krishna Tiwari: Okay. Let’s talk about soul.
Prabhupada: You are studying the hair. Your point is you’re studying… Soul is the part of God, mamaivamso. God says, “The soul is My part and parcel.”
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Prabhupada: So first of all you study the part. What is the deficiency in the dead body? Have you studied it? That he’s a dead body.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Prabhupada: You are biologist.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Prabhupada: When the body is dead, what thing is missing? Huh?
Krishna Tiwari: The body gets dead because every reaction comes to equilibrium.
Prabhupada: (to Syamasundara) What is that?
Syamasundara: Every reaction, chemical reaction, comes to a standstill.
Prabhupada: How? How is this?
Krishna Tiwari: Huh?
Prabhupada: How it comes?
Krishna Tiwari: I think everyone understands that neither the reaction goes this way or that way. Things do not happen. And there’s not one thing which controls it. There are millions of, you know, variables in it. There are lots of variables.
Atreya Rsi: Going back to your example about rats…
Krishna Tiwari: Uh huh.
Atreya Rsi: …if I give you… You say you are creating rats. I give you this plant, can you create a rat from it?
Krishna Tiwari: No. That is transformation of matter.
Atreya Rsi: Well, that’s, that’s what creation means. If I give you nothing, can you create rat from it?
Krishna Tiwari: No.
Atreya Rsi: So all you’re doing is playing with established laws of nature…
Krishna Tiwari: Right.
Atreya Rsi: …to create rats.
Krishna Tiwari: Right.
Atreya Rsi: So you’re not creating anything.
Krishna Tiwari: No. Not…, I’m not…, I’m perpetuating it.
Atreya Rsi: You’re not…
Krishna Tiwari: At my will.
Atreya Rsi: Yes, you have given…, you’re given a will to perpetuate…
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Atreya Rsi: …to, to change a few things.
Krishna Tiwari: Ah huh.
Atreya Rsi: A few things. You cannot perpetuate a rat out of that matter.
Krishna Tiwari: Of course not. Of course not. Nobody else can.
Atreya Rsi: So, and all you can do is study that established law of nature by perpetuation of rats.
Krishna Tiwari: Yeah but, yeah but…
Atreya Rsi: And that law of nature, Srila Prabhupada is saying…
Krishna Tiwari: …is my, is under my control.
Atreya Rsi: No, it’s not under your control.
Krishna Tiwari: I can change a rat.
Atreya Rsi: That as much as you go along with that law of nature…
Krishna Tiwari: No. No. For example we have found out the law of nature, yes. That is always the law of nature, and that is supreme. That I agree. But, but I can manipulate that law of nature as today, not me, with the help of all other scientists, which nobody else could do ever.
Atreya Rsi: And your manipulation is within that law of nature. Your manipulation fits within that law of nature.
Krishna Tiwari: Of course. Of course, I agree.
Atreya Rsi: And your manipulation, your intelligence…
Prabhupada: Therefore you cannot manipulate the law of nature. You are under the law.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I agree.
Syamasundara: You can’t bring a dead body back to life.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, yes. But on other hand, on the other hand…
Atreya Rsi: So let’s go from there.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Atreya Rsi: That’s the limit.
Prabhupada: Then why don’t you cannot bring the dead body into life?
Krishna Tiwari: I don’t think this is the point of argument, because I have, I have already, I have already agreed that the body…
Prabhupada: Yes, this is, this is the point, this is…
Krishna Tiwari: No, no, wait, listen, because the point is this. I agree that the living gets dead and no science can revive it.
Prabhupada: Therefore, what is your science?
Krishna Tiwari: Fine. But what I’m saying is that when the question of soul is something which is not at the moment visible to us or anybody. There is no indication that there is soul, because if there is soul in everything, I would imagine that that will not be controllable under laboratory conditions. If soul made us, then we should not be able to make differences amongst us. If, if the soul was the prime force, and was important force, then such differences of very magnified nature as exists between one species, between the same species, for example human beings, or between the rats. They will not be under the control of the human beings. One could make rats with white eyes, same rat can be bred and made with blue eyes. Or rat can be made white to black. Now these knowledge, this knowledge which man has achieved by studying the law of nature would never have arrived if we just believed in total something which has been said.
Syamasundara: What…, what good are blue-eyed rats?
Krishna Tiwari: Well, that is a different point. (laughter) What good is life? What good is anything? But that, that point is out of the question.
Atreya Rsi: You’re not creating anything new.
Krishna Tiwari: I never said I did create anything new, but I changed those recognized things at will.
Atreya Rsi: Within the laws of mutations.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes, at will, at will, made by my own, which, which God…
Atreya Rsi: No. No. That will is not your own.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, sure it is.
Atreya Rsi: It is not.
Krishna Tiwari: Sure it is.
Atreya Rsi: It is limited. You… Can you will to jump up, go to another star?
Krishna Tiwari: No. No. We don’t know yet, that.
Prabhupada: So you don’t know so many things.
Krishna Tiwari: Of course. I agree that in the first place.
Prabhupada: But we know.
Krishna Tiwari: No. That’s the difference. (laughter) What we do not know, we are ready to agree that we don’t know. The trouble comes when people know nothing and they say they do know.
Prabhupada: No, we know. Now why…, how do you say no? We know.
Krishna Tiwari: No. This is your belief, and I’m not…
Prabhupada: It is not belief.
Atreya Rsi: You can believe that too.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I believe too, but this is… Belief, as somebody’s belief. Say I may believe so many things, as you do, as Swamiji does, as everybody else does.
Prabhupada: What is your explanation between dead body and living body?
Krishna Tiwari: As I said, you see, it’s a very complex thing, and I would not say something that I know from which probably I don’t know. What we can measure in a dead body is that we see many things, you know. Things, say organs are not working…
Prabhupada: Apart from the soul, how, what is your explanation of this dead body?
Krishna Tiwari: We point that the organs get diseased, reactions do not take place as they do, and the nature of, law of nature takes over. We are the great believers of law of nature, better than, than religious people. We believe law of nature more than anybody else does.
Syamasundara: But you think you can control the law of nature?
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I think so. I think so. This, this is the great…
Atreya Rsi: Beyond the law of nature or within the law?
Krishna Tiwari: Within the law of nature.
Atreya Rsi: Within the law of nature. Therefore you can never control it.
Krishna Tiwari: Why not?
Atreya Rsi: Within it, you’re controlling it within it.
Krishna Tiwari: Right.
Atreya Rsi: So, what is control there?
Krishna Tiwari: Well, that’s what, we are doing it. Nobody else has told us to do it. We found it out. Nobody told us.
Atreya Rsi: That, that is within it.
Krishna Tiwari: Within it. I agree. We are all the subject of law of nature.
Atreya Rsi: We, we… Exactly. When you say “we”, you are also within it.
Krishna Tiwari: Of course I am.
Atreya Rsi: All right. Let’s go beyond this, and see what is beyond this, and that’s what Swamiji…
Krishna Tiwari: Beyond nobody knows.
Atreya Rsi: He knows.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I don’t know.
Prabhupada: No, beyond, therefore… No, no. Beyond… You see, as you say that you are within the law of nature.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, yes, I agree. We all of us are.
Prabhupada: So, somebody must be above law of nature.
Krishna Tiwari: Not necessarily.
Prabhupada: No, must be. Otherwise there cannot be law.
Krishna Tiwari: Well, law or not, the ones which we need reading the books or administration, these are not those laws.
Prabhupada: No, no, no, just like…
Syamasundara: He means the word law? What does it mean?
Prabhupada: Just like, just like we are within the state law.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Prabhupada: So there is somebody above the state laws; otherwise how the state laws is made?
Krishna Tiwari: Well, I don’t know which, somebody, in which sense we try to imagine it.
Prabhupada: Why not imagine it? As soon as you say law, there must be law-giver.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I agree with that, but when you say law-giver, see, people get different concepts. For, for…
Prabhupada: Why different concepts? Law-giver, just like…
Krishna Tiwari: For you, law-giver may be something, for me, law- giver may be something else.
Prabhupada: No, law-giver is the same thing for you and me. Just like state laws comes from the government.
Krishna Tiwari: Government is nothing. This comes from people.
Prabhupada: Anyway, there is an institution which is called government. It may be people.
Krishna Tiwari: Well, which is made by people.
Prabhupada: But still, you, you are not controller of the state laws.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, yes, in a way I am. In a way I am.
Prabhupada: No. Anyway, that is a different thing. But you cannot violate the state laws.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, well, we can avoid them. If there is a bad law, you can change.
Prabhupada: Then you’ll be punished. The state laws give you law that you cannot drive your car on the left.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, yeah, quite right.
Prabhupada: So if you violate, you become a criminal.
Krishna Tiwari: Right. Right.
Prabhupada: Therefore you are subordinate to the law, and the law is given by another, bigger person.
Krishna Tiwari: No bigger person. Now, now. These laws of nature…
Prabhupada: How you say it is not bigger? Government is bigger than you.
Krishna Tiwari: No, no, no. That’s misconception, whatsoever. As a matter of fact that’s the opposite…
Prabhupada: It is obstinacy. It is obstinacy. It is obstinacy. You cannot say government is under you. You are under government.
Krishna Tiwari: No, I didn’t say government was under me, but I said the laws are made for us…
Prabhupada: Why don’t you try to understand? The government has given the register.
Krishna Tiwari: Government is nothing, government…
Prabhupada: Why do you say nothing? Why do you say nothing? You, why do you say nothing? What kind of scientist you are, you say the government is nothing?
Krishna Tiwari: Yeah.
Prabhupada: I do not know. You can say government is nothing in my room, but you’ll say outside, you’ll be arrested. (laughter)
Krishna Tiwari: No, I can say outside too, because government is nothing.
Prabhupada: Why you say government is nothing?
Krishna Tiwari: Government is by people.
Prabhupada: That’s all right. But you still you cannot say nothing. You are controlled by it.
Krishna Tiwari: Well, controlled by it, by, by we, we agree with them, for our good or for what…
Prabhupada: First of all you agree. First of all you agree…
Krishna Tiwari: Yeah.
Prabhupada: …that government gives law and you are under the law.
Krishna Tiwari: I don’t think I can agree with that.
Prabhupada: That is your obstinacy.
Krishna Tiwari: No. It’s not obstinacy at all.
Prabhupada: Yes. You’re under the law.
Krishna Tiwari: No, I, I, I,…
Prabhupada: Yes.
Krishna Tiwari: Because they… You are assuming government is…
Prabhupada: First of all you agree, agree this principle!
Krishna Tiwari: How can I agree with it?
Prabhupada: What is this? (laughing) He says you are not under the government of law?
Krishna Tiwari: That is different material.
Prabhupada: Why different matter? First of all you agree this!
Krishna Tiwari: How can I agree? Government is us. We govern ourselves.
Prabhupada: You are. You are. You are ordered not to drive your car on the left: you must.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I shouldn’t, I shouldn’t. I don’t want to.
Prabhupada: Therefore you are under the laws of the government. Therefore you are under the laws of the government.
Svarupa Damodara: We are under the laws of the… We are following the same laws. If you violates the laws, of course, just like Prabhupada says, if you drive on the right side…
Krishna Tiwari: Well, in a minor sense it is true. But what I’m saying is that those laws came about because we decided it was good for us.
Prabhupada: That is…
Krishna Tiwari: That’s what I would say.
Syamasundara: That’s another consideration. He merely wants to define the word “law.” You’re using the word “natural law.” He wants to understand what does the concept mean, “law.”
Devotee (1): This is an example. It’s just an example.
Krishna Tiwari: Okay, I agree, but so long we understand that government is not some body from up…
Syamasundara: In Russia it is.
Krishna Tiwari: In Russia it is, and I don’t care for it.
Prabhupada: That you don’t care for it… The point is you are under nature’s law. There must be somebody who is controlling nature’s law.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes. It could be.
Syamasundara: Unless you think that you have made some by your vote or something.
Krishna Tiwari: No, I never made that. No. That was the difference I was going to tell. If you’ll give an example of a government, that is very different from the example of nature.
Devotee (1): Yes. No analogy is perfect. So it’s more like the Russian government, let’s say. Right?
Prabhupada: That government, what does it mean, “government”? Government means also a person, like president.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Prabhupada: Here in America, the government means President Nixon.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, well, okay, if you want to believe that.
Prabhupada: Why not believe? It is a fact.
Krishna Tiwari: I don’t agree with it at all. (laughing)
Prabhupada: Why don’t you agree? Then you are madman. You are a madman. (laughter)
Krishna Tiwari: (laughing) No, no. I don’t agree with you, Swamiji, at all.
Prabhupada: No, no… Yes.
Krishna Tiwari: I don’t agree. Because I don’t think, I don’t think that some, it is the government.
Devotee (1): This is, this is, you know this is still going off the point. The point is still being made that you’ve already agreed with that you are under the laws of nature.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, yes.
Devotee (1): And that you did not take a hand in determining these laws.
Krishna Tiwari: Okay, I agree.
Devotee (1): He agrees that he’s under the law of nature.
Krishna Tiwari: But I do not agree with some of your government orders.
Devotee (1): That’s fine.
Prabhupada: Now the fact, first of all, we are under the laws of nature.
Krishna Tiwari: All right…
Prabhupada: And the laws of nature… (break)
Krishna Tiwari: From my opinion, something which I do know.
Prabhupada: But we know, we know, in this way, that Lord Krsna says that mayadhyaksena prakrtih suyate sa-caracaram [Bg. 9.10], “Under My control, under My superintendence, the material law of nature is working.”
Krishna Tiwari: Well, I don’t know who, who, who, who said that…
Prabhupada: You don’t know; therefore you learn it, you learn it from Bhagavad-gita. You do not know that. You learn it.
Krishna Tiwari: No. I have read Bhagavad-gita. I am aware of it. I know what is said there.
Prabhupada: Here it is said,
mayadhyaksena prakrtih suyate sa-caracaram hetunanena kaunteya jagad vipari… [Bg. 9.10]
You are coming from Indian brahmana family, you must know it.
Krishna Tiwari: I know it.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Krishna Tiwari: I have also read it. I have Bhagavad-gita with me, always reading…
Prabhupada: So, yes, here is the controller of the, controller of the material nature.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes. But who? The book… You see, the difference is philosophically. As far as the philosophy of the Bhagavad-gita is concerned, fine. But when since we start talking about somebody controlling, and identifying somebody with somebody, I have troubles, as everybody else does.
Prabhupada: Well, no, no trouble. First of all, we have accepted that we are under the control of laws of nature. That is a fact.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, yes.
Prabhupada: Now we say… Not we say; our Vedic literature says that there is a controller of the laws of nature.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I don’t know about that. Maybe. Me, I don’t know about that.
Prabhupada: You don’t know. Why don’t you know? You must know. You must know. Here it is said.
Krishna Tiwari: I’m giving a scientific opinion, not my opinion. Scientists don’t know.
Prabhupada: That scientists, but that the scientists are fools.
Krishna Tiwari: I don’t know that or that.
Prabhupada: Yes! They are fools.
Krishna Tiwari: (laughing) We…, I don’t know. Maybe. I don’t know.
Prabhupada: Maybe? Yes!
Krishna Tiwari: I don’t know. (laughing)
Prabhupada: Yes, it is a fact because we are, we are arguing. We are under the laws of nature.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Prabhupada: And there must be one who is above the laws of nature.
Krishna Tiwari: No problem, yes.
Prabhupada: No, no problem. This is a fact.
Krishna Tiwari: We do not know for fact, and nobody else does.
Prabhupada: What?
Krishna Tiwari: See, when we do not…, we say we do not know, we are just being modest.
Syamasundara: But he knows.
Krishna Tiwari: I don’t know about that.
Syamasundara: But he’s trying to tell if you’ll listen.
Krishna Tiwari: I, I have heard about those things, but I just don’t know about the, how to believe…
Prabhupada: That means, that means you are unbeliever.
Krishna Tiwari: No, not at all.
Prabhupada: Certainly. Certainly! That you are unbeliever.
Krishna Tiwari: Not at all.
Atreya Rsi: If, if he doesn’t know who he is, who is controlling?
Prabhupada: Then he is?
Atreya Rsi: Then he is admitting that there is a controller. You admit that there is a controller, but you don’t know. You’re telling us that you do not see Him and you do not know Him.
Prabhupada: That is a fact.
Krishna Tiwari: Well, you can say that. I don’t know.
Prabhupada: You can not make finalize…
Krishna Tiwari: My point is I don’t know, and I’m not too sure you know it either. (laughter)
Prabhupada: I know. I know, because we are getting from authority of Veda. We know.
Krishna Tiwari: No, Vedas are there, but Swamiji…
Prabhupada: You are, you are, you are, you…
Krishna Tiwari: When I was in India, dying in smallpox, children were dying in smallpox, and we were going to all the knowledge of Veda people, and they were sending us to the temple, and we, we go and worship, and the people will die and, and they didn’t tell us anything about some kind of injection which could protect it. And the scientist people who went and found out about nature, they found out something, and children are not dying anymore. They are not deformed. I know about that…
Prabhupada: You have stopped the death of children?
Krishna Tiwari: We haven’t stopped, but we sure don’t see them going because of smallpox.
Syamasundara: Because they’re all in the hospitals.
Krishna Tiwari: Because of smallpox, we don’t see them going.
Syamasundara: But they die.
Krishna Tiwari: Eventually everybody dies.
Syamasundara: Yes. (all speak at once)
Prabhupada: You don’t know so many points. First of all this point, let us decide, that every one of us under the laws of nature.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Prabhupada: You can save the child for the time being by (indistinct) nature, but it is under the laws of nature, it will die. That’s a fact.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I agree.
Prabhupada: You cannot avoid it. So everyone is under the laws the nature. Let us decide on that. Now these laws of nature, these also controlled by somebody else. As we gave the example that every individual person within a state is controlled by the laws of government or laws of king. Now it is governed by democracy. Formerly it was under the king. So king is a person. He gives the law, and under that law all citizens are controlled. This is a fact. Therefore the laws of nature is controlled by somebody, controller, and we get this information from Vedic knowledge. And practically it is so, that just by the example, law must be given by somebody. Law is not blind, or something dropped from the sky. Law is law. It is made by somebody. That is law. It is working systematically. That is law. So when there is systematic law, there is systematic law-giver, controller, supervisor, superintendent. So we are not imagining, but we’ll take it from authority, Vedic information, which is accepted by a great culture, great acaryas, great teachers. Not that I am blindly accepting, but we are in the disciplic succession in the Vedic knowledge. So from there we understand, janmady asya yatah [Bhag. 1.1.1], Vedanta-sutra. Vedanta-sutra. Vedanta. Veda means knowledge. It includes your scientific knowledge also. Veda means knowledge, and anta means ultimate. That is called Vedanta-sutra. In small codes, the things are given there, Vedic knowledge. Just like what is the ultimate Absolute Truth, the question, athato brahma jijnasa. Brahman means absolute, the biggest. So the answer is janmady asya yatah. So that is Absolute Truth, Supreme Brahman, wherefrom everything comes. So the laws of nature comes from Him.
Krishna Tiwari: This is all imagination according to me. I mean it’s all imagination and belief at this point to me. I mean I have no objection…
Prabhupada: No, what is the imagination? Not here, imagination. When you learn from a, a… Just like the law of gravitation, it is not imagination.
Krishna Tiwari: Well law of gravitation, anything we know about gravity did not come from Vedas.
Prabhupada: Not from Veda, but it comes from Mr. Newton.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes, that what I was saying…
Prabhupada: So therefore you take the laws of gravitation from Mr. Newton.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Prabhupada: So there is an authority.
Krishna Tiwari: Well Newton was wrong in many places, although nobody is authority. Things change. I don’t…
Prabhupada: That means you don’t accept any authority.
Krishna Tiwari: No, I don’t, because once you accept an authority, you are just blindly following something which may be right, which may be absolutely wrong. But you will never find it out, whether it was right or wrong. So blind faith in authority is the most mistaken path a person can ever take.
Prabhupada: Not blind faith. We don’t say authority blind faith. Authority, that’s not blind faith.
Krishna Tiwari: And just…
Prabhupada: Now, just… Suppose, to know your father, the authority is your mother. The mother says, “Here is your father.” You follow blindly?
Krishna Tiwari: No.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Krishna Tiwari: No. It is a different thing.
Prabhupada: Mother may say wrong.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, well, this is, this kind of examples are very…
Devotee: Why not this kind of example?
Krishna Tiwari: They’re unreal.
Prabhupada: Not unreal. The authority means you have to follow blindly. That is authority. That is my point.
Krishna Tiwari: No, no. You believe something. You, you…
Prabhupada: Believe, because it is fact.
Krishna Tiwari: You, whenever you use word “follow,” “authority,” you are talking of subjugation.
Prabhupada: No, no. Yes! Yes!
Krishna Tiwari: And subjugation is different than faith and belief.
Prabhupada: No, no. Sub… We believe in the subjugation, because…
Krishna Tiwari: Well, I do not believe in the subjugation.
Prabhupada: That is your madness, because you know.
Krishna Tiwari: No, no. No way, no way you can say that. (laughing)
Prabhupada: No, no, don’t be upset. You said that you are under the laws of nature.
Krishna Tiwari: I am.
Prabhupada: Therefore you are under subjugation.
Krishna Tiwari: But, but I do not believe these kind of “authority” words.
Prabhupada: You believe, you believe. When, when the laws of nature will force upon you death, you must believe.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I’m sure I will believe.
Prabhupada: Then why do you say that you are not obligation?
Krishna Tiwari: No, but that’s not question of authority or anything…
Prabhupada: Yes, that is authority. We mean another…
Krishna Tiwari: …that’s a part of the nature. Difference between…,
Prabhupada: No, no.
Krishna Tiwari: …big difference between subjugative authority and being a part of the nature.
Prabhupada: No, no. Subjugative, when you are forced to become old, when you are forced to become diseased, you are under subjugation.
Krishna Tiwari: Mistake. Not forced. It’s automatic, it’s, it’s just a chain. It’s a growth into. It’s a factor; it’s no force.
Prabhupada: That automatic means just like you become criminal.
Krishna Tiwari: That, that’s the way progress, I’m a part of it. I’m not under or over anybody, and no one is over, under, or above me. You are not under me. You are not over me.
Syamasundara: You’re under nature’s law.
Krishna Tiwari: Right, we all are. You, me, Swamiji, you, all of us are.
Atreya Rsi: Exactly. Exactly.
Krishna Tiwari: Neither you are above me, nor you are below, nor I am above you. I may have respect for you, because I, on my own, believe that you are respectable. That is entirely different thing.
Atreya Rsi: That’s up to you.
Krishna Tiwari: Then authority. That’s what I’m saying. This is up to me. But authority and subjugation are, are the two things which will not come.
Atreya Rsi: It’s a matter of your choice. Accepting…
Krishna Tiwari: It’s a matter of personal choice.
Prabhupada: If you are not under subjugation, that does not authority?
Krishna Tiwari: I’m no, I’m no, I’m no subjugation to anyone. I’m a part of the nature.
Prabhupada: How is that you’re not…
Krishna Tiwari: If nature moves, I move with it. If the nature makes me old, I get old.
Prabhupada: You have here subjugation.
Krishna Tiwari: I am no… I’m a part of a… Nature is changing too. Nature is nothing which is, which is static.
Prabhupada: Nature is not changing.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, sure it is changing.
Prabhupada: Not changing.
Krishna Tiwari: Well, my belief is it’s changing, and even Lord Krsna says it changes.
Prabhupada: No.
Krishna Tiwari: I think He does.
Prabhupada: Nature is changing…
Krishna Tiwari: Ever-changing, ever-changing world is the theme of Lord Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Syamasundara: There’s always winter, there’s always summer.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, and things have changed, much, much more than you have observed just by winter and spring, and the change, the change of the world, change of the nature is the Lord in Gita philosophy itself, and I’m a great believer in Gita philosophy, but I just don’t buy subjugation or authority.
Devotee (1): Then how can you…, then you say, you say you can determine the age of the earth.
Krishna Tiwari: I have not determined. I mean, thousands of scientists have combined.
Devotee (1): You say you believe, you believe in some of the…
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I believe that number very well. Yes.
Syamasundara: Then you believe in authority.
Krishna Tiwari: No, because I can make my own calculation using his things.
Syamasundara: But you said that earth changes so much.
Krishna Tiwari: It does. It’s ever-changing.
Syamasundara: Then how can you measure it?
Krishna Tiwari: That you…, there are ways to do it. I mean, that, the what is earth today will not be tomorrow.
Devotee (1): Measurements are blunt.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh of course.
Atreya Rsi: Can I, can I summarize to you what our position on authority is? What we’re talking about is that simply you’re saying we both agree that there is a very beautiful set-up here. It’s not accidental set-up. (indistinct) intelligent laws of nature. We both agree that there must be something beyond it.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Krishna Tiwari: I agree.
Atreya Rsi: You agree. Now you don’t know beyond that. You have not… You say “I don’t have time,” or somehow…
Krishna Tiwari: No. I have lot of time, just I can’t find.
Atreya Rsi: Exactly, exactly. You made your choice not to go after, or you cannot find it, you say.
Krishna Tiwari: No, that’s, that’s not… That’s your words. That’s not my words. My desire is to find more, much, much more than you can place this. (laughs)
Devotee: Fine. But about that person, you see, you can find and find and find. You’ve got an outlet. You can get his hair and analyze. Each hair you can see millions of atoms. You can count the atoms in each hair. You can go further and further and further. But if you don’t know that is an elephant, that’s…
Krishna Tiwari: No, we have to know.
Atreya Rsi: So we’re talking about the whole, which includes, includes that creator.
Krishna Tiwari: Right.
Atreya Rsi: Now, when…
Krishna Tiwari: I think we don’t have much difference of opinion.
Atreya Rsi: And we go, to find about that creator, we go to the source of authority…
Prabhupada: Yes.
Atreya Rsi: …which we know, this is the only process to find a creator, because we are…
Krishna Tiwari: How you know that?
Atreya Rsi: …His subordinate…
Krishna Tiwari: How you know that about?
Atreya Rsi: Because we are His subordinate. Now, and you will know, if you follow the process, you will know too.
Krishna Tiwari: How?
Atreya Rsi: You have to accept one by one. You have to accept first of all that He is the authority.
Krishna Tiwari: Well, how can you accept somebody’s authority without knowing them?
Devotee (1): Like your mother. He gave the example.
Atreya Rsi: Exactly.
Krishna Tiwari: No. I believed in her. That’s all I said.
Prabhupada: You believe.
Krishna Tiwari: If she says… If she says he’s my father, I believe.
Syamasundara: You think she’s trying to cheat you?
Krishna Tiwari: No, I’m not. That’s why I believe her. The question of authority does not come.
Atreya Rsi: So you have to believe there is an alternative beyond and above this law of nature.
Krishna Tiwari: Believe? I always said from the very beginning, beliefs are entirely different thing.
Atreya Rsi: And you have to understand where does this information come from. This doesn’t come accidentally. It comes from the source of information. And this source of information we call the Vedas. It is not an accidental literature.
Prabhupada: The Veda means knowledge.
Atreya Rsi: It’s knowledge.
Prabhupada: Knowledge coming from, just like you were talking about.
Atreya Rsi: And where is it coming from? It’s coming, it’s coming from the source.
Krishna Tiwari: Well, I don’t, I think we have a, just a matter of words. You said knowledge is coming from source. I think knowledge is coming from people.
Atreya Rsi: How could you know?
Syamasundara: Your knowledge is always changing, just like the Carbon 14 test. You say… You might has said a few months back, “Yes, I believe the earth is this old,” and now you have to say, “No, I believe now the earth is half that old.” So your knowledge is constantly changing.
Krishna Tiwari: Because that’s better and better.
Syamasundara: Better and better. Have you improved the world? Do you think you’ve made one improvement in the world?
Krishna Tiwari: Nobody else has. We have made better than what others, everybody else combined, Christ and everybody else combined did, and Lord Krsna included.
Syamasundara: How do you measure that improvement?
Prabhupada: Now, this is another point. First of all you must settle up this. (laughter). First of all we must settle up this fact, that we are all under the laws of nature.
Krishna Tiwari: I agree, Swamiji, completely.
Prabhupada: Now the point is, we, we say the laws of nature is also given by somebody else. That is our point.
Krishna Tiwari: Which probably I have nothing to add to.
Prabhupada: That is the point.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes, but my one…
Prabhupada: Now, what is that person, that is another thing, but simply let us agree that we are under the laws of nature, and laws of nature is also controlled by somebody.
Krishna Tiwari: Well, we can say that…
Prabhupada: That is our point. That is our point. Now, who is that person, or what is that substance which is controlling the law of nature, that is not yet known to the science.
Krishna Tiwari: No.
Prabhupada: Yes. But we, either you say “believe” or you know, we know.
Krishna Tiwari: Well that’s okay. Okay, because everybody is free to believe in it, but one cannot say.
Prabhupada: That is the point. You don’t believe that; we believe that.
Krishna Tiwari: No, that is not true. I didn’t say that. I agreed with it. But I do not know who the person is…
Prabhupada: No, no.
Krishna Tiwari: …when I will have…
Prabhupada: I don’t say who, but you have to believe that there is a person and there is a superior authority.
Krishna Tiwari: Person, I don’t think so. It’s not from person. Not in my opinion.
Prabhupada: Or not person; something, something superior to these laws of material nature. That you have to accept.
Krishna Tiwari: Okay.
Prabhupada: That is our point. That is our point. That’s all.
Krishna Tiwari: But that is, this is again a conjecture which probably everybody is…
Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, you have to accept. We are under the laws of nature, and laws of nature is controlled by something superior.
Krishna Tiwari: That’s fine. I don’t think we have any disagreement on that point.
Prabhupada: That’s all right. Let us agree to that point.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Prabhupada: Let us agree to that point. Now what is that something, that remains, for the time being. I may say “I know”; you may say “I don’t believe in it.” That is a different thing. But there must be something above the laws of nature which is controlling. That’s all.
Krishna Tiwari: I agree.
Prabhupada: If we agree to that, then there is no disagreement. Let us stop here. That’s all.
Krishna Tiwari: Okay. I mean that is, but that is very obvious to everybody. I mean this is nothing, this is no…
Prabhupada: Now our, our preaching is, “Here is the controller.” Now, you may take it or not take it. That is different thing. But we say “Here is the controller.”
Krishna Tiwari: Only difference of opinion is this, that, uh, one… Oh, you say or I say, it doesn’t matter. It’s not reflected to you. Anybody who says that they know about God, they have actually no, no, no, no way to prove any way, one way or the other.
Prabhupada: No. We don’t know by your process.
Krishna Tiwari: By any process.
Prabhupada: Your process. Your process is, you are trying to ascend. But we are taking knowledge from directly God. That is the difference.
Krishna Tiwari: That’s where my trouble is, and I…
Prabhupada: No, no, your trouble must be there.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Prabhupada: Because you’re godless.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, no. Not true.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is your problem.
Krishna Tiwari: Not true. Not true.
Prabhupada: That is your trouble.
Krishna Tiwari: No, no… Okay, go on saying like that. Fine. (laughs)
Prabhupada: Yes, because you are godless in this sense: because you are born in India, born in a brahmana family, and you do not believe Krsna the Supreme Lord.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh. I do not believe, but uh, I do believe that God is, but I do not understand whether the… (indistinct) God or not. I don’t know.
Prabhupada: You do not understand, that is your godlessness. That is your godlessness, because…
Krishna Tiwari: No, that’s not my godlessness at all. (laughs)
Devotee (1): Please listen while he explains the process of how to know God.
Prabhupada: Brahmana means one who knows the Brahman Brahma janati iti brahmana. So at least you are not a brahmana, because you do not know the Brahman.
Krishna Tiwari: I do not believe in classes anyway.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Krishna Tiwari: It’s all right.
Prabhupada: Yes. So there, that is your defect. One has to become a brahmana. One has to. But you’re deviated from brahmana.
Krishna Tiwari: I’m glad I did. (laughs) I’m really happy I did. I can assure you, Swami.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Krishna Tiwari: If I meet God, I’ll tell Him I’m glad I did. (laughs)
Prabhupada: That’s all right. The demons always say like that. (disciples laugh). The demons say always like that. That’s is the fashion of the demons.
Krishna Tiwari: No, it’s not true. (laughing) You know, Swamiji, what I am telling you, it’s not true, because I know I’m a brahmana’s son.
Prabhupada: You are.
Krishna Tiwari: I know a lot about…
Prabhupada: You are.
Krishna Tiwari: A lot about reading Gita myself…
Prabhupada: You have become a demon.
Krishna Tiwari: Huh?
Prabhupada: From brahmana you have become a demon.
Krishna Tiwari: I have not become demon, and God knows it. I am much more better man, right now…
Prabhupada: Demons always know better than God.
Krishna Tiwari: Is that right? I don’t know better than God. Oh, I never said that. What I’m saying is God knows I’m not a bad man. I’m not a demon. (laughs)
Prabhupada: Demon’s position is always to challenge God that “I know better than you.”
Krishna Tiwari: I never said that. (laughing)
Prabhupada: That is demonism. That is demonism.
Krishna Tiwari: No, Swamiji, you did not hear me.
Prabhupada: Yes, I hear, I know.
Krishna Tiwari: I said that God knows I’m not a demon. I did not say I am better than God.
Syamasundara: Can we hear what he knows, what is his knowledge? What he thinks is his knowledge? What do you know…?
Krishna Tiwari: Can I say about my concept of God and philosophy?
Syamasundara: No, no, no, not that. That’s speculation. Let’s hear what you think…
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, it’s better speculation than yours. (laughs)
Syamasundara: Let’s hear what you know through your scientific… You say you only accept knowledge which is scientifically verifiable.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I never said that. I was giving you…
Prabhupada: One thing is, that he has accepted that there is a controller of the nature. Now, what is that controller you do not know.
Krishna Tiwari: I don’t know.
Prabhupada: That’s the point. So we know. That is the difference. You believe me or not, that is another thing.
Krishna Tiwari: Okay. All right.
Prabhupada: I say that controller is Krsna. Now you may disagree with me. But I have got evidence from the sastra that Krsna is accepted by all brahmanas in India.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I accept Him too.
Prabhupada: Yes, that he is the supreme controller. I have got that authority—Ramanujacarya, he is a brahmana. Madhvacarya, he is a brahmana. Caitanya Mahaprabhu, He is a brahmana. They’re born in brahmana family. Sankaracarya, he was a brahmana.
Krishna Tiwari: I know all of them.
Prabhupada: So all of them have agreed. So in my background, we have got so many authorities, but when you say, you have no background. That is difference between you and me.
Krishna Tiwari: Swamiji, our sastra also say that “You seek and you’ll find.” And, and, and “The person who seeketh himself…”
Prabhupada: No.
Krishna Tiwari: “…will find, will have a better chance of finding Me.”
Prabhupada: No.
Devotee (1): Where is that said?
Prabhupada: We don’t agree to that. We don’t agree.
Devotee (1): Where is that said?
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I’ll show you many books where, where the philosophy has been…
Prabhupada: Now we are talking of Bhagavad-gita. Can you say any quotation?
Krishna Tiwari: No, I do not follow them by quotation, by quotation.
Prabhupada: Then don’t say sastra. Don’t say our sastra. You don’t believe in sastra. You do not know sastra. Therefore don’t say our sastra. You’ll say Indian scientific point of views. Don’t say your sastra.
Devotee (1): Say what you have found through your scientific process. Tell us what knowledge is. Tell us what…, how things are working. What is the, what is the process of scientific…
Prabhupada: How the nature, law of nature is being controlled? Where is your scientific…
Krishna Tiwari: I, I already agreed, and all scientists agree that they know nothing about it.
Prabhupada: That’s all. That you don’t know.
Devotee (1): So then your process is imperfect. You admit. We’re saying that there’s a process which is perfect, and it’s a process of receiving knowledge which is absolute, that is descending, and receiving that with a submissive attitude. And you’re saying that by your sensuous endeavor with your different machines and instruments, you can ascend to the Absolute Truth. But the symptom of a person who is in knowledge is that he’s satisfied, he’s peaceful within, and we can understand that this Krsna consciousness society is developing, is helping living entities, people, become satisfied within by receiving knowledge and actually coming to, to understand themselves and what’s around them and so forth, whereas, let me ask you, how many people have actually come to this stage of peacefulness and knowledge, of being freed from the need for intoxication and so many different things, by your scientific method? In other words, has this process helped you to be actually filled with knowledge and bliss, or has it simply sent you into more questioning and more doubt until you come to a point of what we were discussing the other day, the Heisenberg’s theory of uncertainty? Ultimately you come to the theory of uncertainty. So we’re saying, when you come to this point, then you may as well just relax and try to have a submissive attitude, or any scientist, and try to receive knowledge which is descending.
Prabhupada: Another, another thing is, he says, he says that he does not know what is there beyond this material nature. But he’s still satisfied with that imperfect knowledge.
Devotee (1): That’s right. You should not be satisfied with that imperfect knowledge.
Krishna Tiwari: Wait a minute.
Prabhupada: To be satisfied with imperfect knowledge is the qualification of an animal.
Krishna Tiwari: Correct. But this was your words. It were not mine. I didn’t say that I was satisfied. You presumed I was satisfied.
Prabhupada: No. Yes, yes. You said that we know artificially; we don’t know philosophy.
Krishna Tiwari: I never said that we’re not trying to find out.
Atreya Rsi: All right, then, and you have tried, and you…
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, we are still trying to… You have to try very hard to find out these things. My question is, when I say—wait a minute, let me talk something. When I say I do not know, that does not necessarily mean that others know. And you are taking this (indistinct) point. I am saying in my humbleness that I do not know, and you come up, “Well, I know that.” Because I don’t know, you are suppose to know. That’s not true. I just say you don’t know either. (laughs)
Prabhupada: No, no, that… But you cannot say, also, because you do not know, others do not know. You cannot say.
Krishna Tiwari: No. I never said that. I don’t…, I didn’t say that.
Atreya Rsi: You did. You just did.
Krishna Tiwari: No, but you’ll come back and tell me that “I know.” Then I cannot believe you that because I said I don’t know, you have to know.
Prabhupada: “I, I know” means I know from the authority, who knows.
Krishna Tiwari: How? Which authority is that?
Prabhupada: That, I say, I present this, Vedas authority. You don’t…
Krishna Tiwari: (indistinct) with those.
Prabhupada: You do not believe in the Vedas, that is a different thing. But I am saying I know from the authority.
Krishna Tiwari: I have seen that. I have seen, I have lived in India.
Prabhupada: That is my position.
Krishna Tiwari: I have lived in everywhere. If Vedas were all that great and we have followed Vedas for thousand of years…
Prabhupada: No. You might have…
Krishna Tiwari: …look what it has done to the country.
Prabhupada: You might have faith…
Devotee (1): (indistinct) is still there.
Prabhupada: But Vedas are still…
Krishna Tiwari: In what situation?
Prabhupada: It is not what situation. It is what situation for you. You do not believe.
Krishna Tiwari: (indistinct) is doing much better.
Prabhupada: But Vedas, authorities have not been accepted by all the acaryas, by the, all the brahmanas, all great personalities in India? That is our authority. Now, you don’t believe in authority. That is you have become deviated from Vedas. That is the point.
Krishna Tiwari: Well, if you want to say that point.
Prabhupada: That is the point.
Krishna Tiwari: This is not my opinion.
Prabhupada: That we have got our authority. That’s all.
Krishna Tiwari: This is not my opinion, because I look with eyes open; I make my own mind.
Prabhupada: This opinion, it is your opinion. Because you are Indian, I am also Indian. I believe you don’t believe.
Krishna Tiwari: Sure, I do not believe.
Prabhupada: So it is your opinion.
Krishna Tiwari: I do not believe in the strict following of every word…
Prabhupada: That’s all right, that is your, that is your point of view, but that is not our point of view.
Krishna Tiwari: Well, right, we disagree on that one.
Syamasundara: You said once, in a court of law, if there are two points of view at the final judgment, it has to be judged by the results of which point of view. So if you, if you judge by the results of our process and his process which people are…, have attained to some kind of perfect understanding of themselves, some kind of satisfaction with life, you have to point to our process and say that ours gets the balance of favorable opinion, because in your process, no one has been made happy.
Krishna Tiwari: How does say that in your process, anybody has been made happy?
Prabhupada: Everyone who follows Vedic injunctions, they’re happy.
Devotee (1): You ask me.
Krishna Tiwari: You ask me. I’m very happy.
Prabhupada: But you are happy with imperfect knowledge.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, no. (laughing) Again it’s the same thing.
Prabhupada: You said, you said… No. You are happy with your imperfect education of an animal.
Krishna Tiwari: Everybody is.
Prabhupada: Imperfect knowledge and happiness.
Krishna Tiwari: Only perfect can be then your superpower, which you’re talking about. You cannot be perfect either.
Prabhupada: No. no. I am not perfect, but I am following the perfect. That is…
Krishna Tiwari: Yeah, well, superpower, everybody is following a superpower, everybody else…
Prabhupada: That is… No. You have no such power. You have no such superpower.
Krishna Tiwari: Well, I have no such superpower, but…
Prabhupada: You say that you do not know anything beyond this material knowledge. That you do not know. Therefore you do not know what is that superpower, which is controlling. But I know the superpower.
Krishna Tiwari: Well, that’s my question. I don’t know whether you know that.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is the difference.
Devotee (1): So, you should not make up the conclusion that just because you don’t know, that someone else also doesn’t know.
Krishna Tiwari: No, I agree with you completely, but my point of this is that this is the difference between religious and scientific approach of finding the superpower. When science finds…
Prabhupada: This is not religious!
Krishna Tiwari: Whatever it is.
Prabhupada: It is not faith.
Krishna Tiwari: Whatever.
Prabhupada: It is fact. It is science.
Krishna Tiwari: Science. It is this kind of science then, because there is no way to prove it. When a person finds…
Prabhupada: There is proof. There is proof.
Krishna Tiwari: …anywhere in the world…
Prabhupada: You don’t say there is no proof.
Krishna Tiwari: …in science, you can do the same thing in your place.
Prabhupada: No, no. There is proof. There is proof. Because, because the laws of nature is being controlled, that is the proof there is somebody controlling. That is the proof.
Krishna Tiwari: Well, okay, suppose we grant that. Suppose we grant that, that that is the case, then what we do about it?
Prabhupada: So that, you do not know that. We know that. That is our difference.
Krishna Tiwari: Okay. Suppose we believe that this is the case. Then we do about it?
Prabhupada: That, then our knowledge is perfect and your knowledge…
Krishna Tiwari: Then sit and just request him to do something.
Prabhupada: No, no, no.
Devotee (1): No. The process is given. If, he, he…
Prabhupada: Just… We, the difference is that your process is imperfect because you do not know exactly who is the controller of the laws of nature.
Krishna Tiwari: But nobody else does know either.
Prabhupada: I, nobody… I say know, still you say nobody knows.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, yeah, I agree. That’s your belief, but I don’t think you know that.
Prabhupada: Why belief? I say your belief also. That there is no controller there, that is also your belief.
Krishna Tiwari: No. There is a controller. I say you don’t know.
Prabhupada: Why you are giving so much importance to your method of understanding?
Krishna Tiwari: (laughs) Because there is only one each of us can do.
Prabhupada: That is (indistinct). So if you give so much importance to your method of understanding, why don’t you give importance to our method of understanding?
Krishna Tiwari: Well, I haven’t seen the results of…
Prabhupada: Your method is imperfect. I have seen.
Krishna Tiwari: But others is more imperfect.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Krishna Tiwari: Others is…
Prabhupada: No, others are perfect.
Krishna Tiwari: Very imperfect, Swamiji. Very imperfect.
Prabhupada: No, very perfect. Very perfect.
Krishna Tiwari: Exactly what I’m saying to… Well that’s what I’m saying.
Syamasundara: What is your standard of perfection?
Krishna Tiwari: What?
Syamasundara: What is your standard of perfection?
Krishna Tiwari: My, well my, to understand the law of nature, first thing. Now, when, when scientists have gone to understand the law of nature… (end)