Room Conversation with Dr. Arnold Toynbee,
Famous Historian, at his home or office
His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada
July 22, 1973, London
Prabhupada: You have heard something about our Krsna consciousness movement?
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: I know something in general, yes. Perhaps you would tell me more.
Prabhupada: It is based on Bhagavad-gita.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes.
Prabhupada: You have read Bhagavad-gita, I think.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes.
Prabhupada: So primarily, it is based on Bhagavad-gita, and then it is being explained from Srimad-Bhagavatam.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes.
Prabhupada: Bhagavad-gita is the preliminary study of Srimad-Bhagavatam.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes, yes.
Prabhupada: So we get ideas from Bhagavad-gita how God consciousness can make the human society happy.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes. (keeps saying “Yes” repeatedly throughout the conversation)
Prabhupada: The aim of human society should be God realization. That is the distinction between an animal and a human being.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes.
Prabhupada: So Bhagavad-gita recommends that the whole society should be divided into four divisions: the brahmana, or the most intellectual persons, the ksatriyas, the administrators, the vaisyas, the mercantile agriculturists, and the sudras, ordinary men, laborer or worker. Because this material world is conducted by three modes of nature, goodness, passion and ignorance, so according to the quality of the person, he should be listed in different categories. And it is the duty of the state to see that all these categories, divisions, they are working nicely.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes.
Prabhupada: Then, by God’s arrangement, by nature’s arrangement, all the necessities of the living entities, they will be supplied. They will be free from all anxieties, diseases. This was practically demonstrated during the reign of Maharaja Yudhisthira. I, I wish to quote some passages from… during the reign of…
Pradyumna: Start with number one?
saunaka uvaca hatva svariktha-sprdha atatayino yudhisthiro dharma-bhrtam varisthah sahanujaih pratyavaruddha-bhojanah katham pravrttah kim akarasit tatah [SB 1.10.1]
Prabhupada: Maharaja Yudhisthira, after the Battle of Kuruksetra, all the five brothers, they were almost fasting, as, what is called, atonement for so many people killed for their sake. Then, under the instruction of elderly persons, Bhisma and Krsna, he accepted the ruling power, governmental, and during his time… You read that, kamam vavarsa…
Pradyumna: It says,
kamam vavarsa parjanyah sarva-kama-dugha mahi sisicuh sma vrajan gavah payasodhasvatir muda [SB 1.10.4]
Prabhupada: Translation.
Pradyumna: “Translation. During the reign of Maharaja Yudhisthira, the clouds showered all the water that people needed, and the earth produced all the necessities of man in profusion. Due to its fatty milk bag and cheerful attitude, the cow used to moisten the grazing ground with milk.”
Prabhupada: This was the position of the kingdom, that the cows felt secure. At the present moment, the cows are very unhappy. I have seen. They are almost crying. Because they can understand that “After some time, we’ll be killed.”
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes, yes.
Prabhupada: They can understand that. So during Maharaja Yudhisthira’s time, the cows were happy, and because they were happy, they were producing so much milk that when they were on the pasturing ground, the pasturing ground became moist with milk. Milk was dropping. So much milk supply. And kamam vavarsa parjanyah: [SB 1.10.4] There was regular rainfall and ample production of food grains, other things also. Just like jewelry, they are also produced by the rainfall and certain constellation of the stars. That we understand from the astrological books.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes. So they produce these stones also, mean pusyanna-ksatra. So therefore it is said that kamam vavarsa parjanyah [SB 1.10.4] And this parjanyah, or the rainfall, is made possible by performing sacrifices. You read that portion, parjanyad anna-sambhavah.
Pradyumna: This is from Bhagavad-gita. Annad bhavanti bhutani parjanyad anna-sambhavah.
Prabhupada: Annad bhavanti bhutani means by eating sufficiently, the living entities, they grow, they become strong, both animals and human beings. Then?
Pradyumna: Parjanyad anna-sambhavah.
Prabhupada: And the anna, these grains, they are produced from parjanyah, from clouds. Now? Next?
Pradyumna: Yajnad bhavati parjanyo…
Prabhupada: And yajnad bhavati parjanyah [Bg. 3.14]. And when we regularly perform yajna, then there is regular cloud in the sky. And when there is cloud in the sky, there is regular rainfall, and when there is regular rainfall, there is sufficient production of food grains, fruits and other vegetables so that both the animal and the human beings, they eat sufficiently, they grow strength, they become happy and again perform yajna. And the animals supply, the cow supplies milk. In this way, the whole society becomes happy. These are the prescriptions, or directions, given by the Vedic literature. So if people take advantage of this instruction, as you have mentioned in your article “The Great Seers,” so if we follow their instruction, the whole history of the human being can be changed. There is no difficulty. But whether the people will accept or not, that is the business of the leaders of the society. So far I think that British people, they organized very nicely the British Empire, but some way or other, it is now lost. But still, the British prestige can be elevated if actually, according to the Vedic instruction, you try to make your social construction, the political institution and economic development… Every direction is there. So you are all great historians. And there are many politicians. If you take this instruction of the Vedas little seriously, you can make your state an ideal state, and people are still ready to follow you. Then the whole history of the world will change. And if you people agree, then I can help you. I can help.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes, yes. (pause)
Prabhupada: There must be ample production of food grains and milk product. Then the whole economic problem solved. And the formula is there. How to get ample agricultural production and milk, everything is there in Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam. And the examples of Maharaja Yudhisthira, that is also there. But one… We must be serious to accept this formula for practical application.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes. You would apply the teachings of the Gita to all human societies at all times. Yes, yes.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Yes, that is my ambition, that let the teachings of Bhagavad-gita be practically accepted by the human society, and surely they’ll be happy. Surely. Yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavati bharata [Bg. 4.7]. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita. So now everything is confused. And in your country, or western countries, they are very organized. So you are not feeling now so much confusion. But it is coming. But in India and countries like that, it is very confusion state. Yes. They have lost their own culture, and they could not assimilate the western type of civilization. So they are lost. They are lost.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: In India is everybody lost, the Indian culture…?
Prabhupada: No, not everybody.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: No, no.
Prabhupada: Not everybody. But general mass of people, at least, the so-called educated, five to ten percent people, they are lost.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes. And so-called educated, they practically guide. You’ll be surprised to know that in 1950, one of my students, he was a government statistics officer. So he went to some village, and he gave me report that the villagers inquired from him that “Babuji, agar angarej ko vote diya yai pasatela (?)”
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes.
Prabhupada: You understand Hindi? No.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: No, I don’t. No, no, no.
Prabhupada: No. The inquiry was that “If we again give votes to the Englishmen, will they come and do.” (laughs)
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes, yes.
Prabhupada: Yes. So they were feeling the… Actually, in India… In our childhood, we know. Every Indian felt very secure. They never expected that Britishers will go. They were so sympathetic. And now they… This is the pulse felt by that statistics officer. They are not very much satisfied with the present system of government. British administration was very much appreciated by the Indians. Even Bhaktivinoda Thakura appreciated. Bhaktivinoda Thakura, he has written in something, somewhere, that “The Britishers also very nice because they don’t interfere with the religious affairs.” So as soon as they changed their views and tried to divide the Hindus and Muslims, the British Empire lost. According to Queen’s declaration, the Britishers pledged that “They will not interfere with your religious affairs.” Later on, for political purposes, when they interfered with this Hindu-Muslim question, then the British Empire lost.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes. But the people who rule India now have a western education mostly. The Indians who…
Prabhupada: Yes. Perverted, converted. Just like Nehru. Nehru was western-educated. He was educated in London. But he hated everything Indian.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes. That was the res… Formerly, in our childhood we saw that any gentleman coming here in London and goes back to India, he no more mixes with the Indian soil. He… They were called “England-returned.” So they made their own society. Then our Ram Mohan Raya, he formed a Brahmo Society. And so many things changed. Again, they are now topsy-turvied. So actually, India’s position is that they have lost their own culture, and they could not assimilate the western culture. But in the western countries, if they accept this Vedic process of civilization, then they will again take it.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes. (pause)
Syamasundara: “A Rival for Nelson.”
Prabhupada: Hm?
Syamasundara: “A Rival for Nelson.”
Prabhupada: Yes. There was newspaper photograph. You have seen that?
Syamasundara: Guardian.
Prabhupada: Guardian. “A Rival for Nelson.” Yes.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Well, the western countries are mostly concerned with economics, money, wealth…
Prabhupada: No, that is…
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: It’s about the same as…
Prabhupada: That they can continue. But the spirit of Vedic culture should be accepted. It is not that because one has to accept the Vedic culture, he has to stop industry or material progress. Not like that. Bhagavad-gita does not teach that. Simply to change the consciousness. Therefore we have named the Society “Krsna Consciousness.” One has to become Krsna conscious. Then everything will be adjusted. Not the mode of life should be changed. Little change. Just like we recommend that four things should be avoided: illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication and gambling. So to give up these four kinds of activities, which are considered to be sinful, that is not very difficult. That is not very difficult. These English and, I mean to say, European and American boys, they are young men. They have given up. So in the society, if there is prevalence of sinful activities, then there will be reaction. So these four things are considered sinful activities: illicit sex, meat, unecessarily killing of animals, and intoxication, and gambling. Yatra papas catur-vidhah. These are four kinds of sinful activities. So Vedic civilization means they should be freed from the sinful activities. Then other things will automatically come.
Syamasundara: I think Mr. Toynbee… I saw on television, I saw you once on a television program in New York.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes.
Syamasundara: And you concluded that if men came out of this age who had developed a spirit of renunciation, true renunciation from material pursuit, that this would enable the world to rectify its present precarious position.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes, yes. Yes.
Syamasundara: So… Yes.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Do you see any signs of change in the western world or not?
Prabhupada: Well, change can take place any moment, provided they will take this movement little seriously. Change for good.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Change for good. Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes. And your article showed that you are also for change for good.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes.
Prabhupada: Yes. So our movement and your honor, we can cooperate for the good of the general people.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes.
Syamasundara: How do you see this “spirit of true renunciation,” as you call it, how do you see it…?
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes.
Syamasundara: How do you see that that is able to come about at this time in history?
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: There are some signs in western countries, of people turning away from just money-making professions, I think. Small signs, but distinct signs perhaps. But it’ll take a long time, and probably only through a great deal of suffering will people learn to change their attitude to life, I think. I think in Britain at the present, people of all classes are going for more wealth, more material standard of living, and so on, they’re thinking almost entirely of this, which doesn’t make for happiness and cannot really be achieved by everybody.
Syamasundara: Many young people, especially young people…
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes.
Syamasundara: Many people nowadays are finding this renunciation quite simple and easy…
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes.
Syamasundara: …as Prabhupada was saying about the four rules and so many other activities. We may perform something on the surface, but the renunciation is there in our consciousness because we’re giving everything to Krsna as a service.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes. What about America? (Sound of glasses of water being poured)
Syamasundara: Oh yes.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: That’s good. (?)
Devotee: Some water, Dr. Toynbee?
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: No, thank you. And what about Japan? She’s an Asian country, but has been very successful in the western way now.
Syamasundara: Well, we have two centers there also. Japan also, we have centers.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: I get the impression the Japanese are not very happy. They’re very…
Prabhupada: Nobody can be happy with this materialistic way of life. That is a fact.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Syamasundara: Our centers, Prabhupada has started centers all over the world, one hundred and ten centers. Thousands of people are giving up the material attachment.
Prabhupada: In Bengal, there was one secretary of the government, Toynbee.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes.
Prabhupada: You knew him?
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: No, no.
Prabhupada: He’s different man.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Probably some connection there. Yes, yes, yes.
Prabhupada: I… In some business I saw him sometimes in 1948, like that. (pause)
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Sad that Bengal has been divided.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Very sad.
Prabhupada: Bengal is now divided. East Bengal is now called Bangladesh, and West Bengal is there.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: They still keep to the language, and they feel themselves Bengalis, though they’re just (most?) Muslims.
Prabhupada: Oh yes. They’re keeping the Bengali language.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes.
Prabhupada: India was divided, Pakistan and Hindustan.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes. There’s a great consciousness of difference of language too in India, which is rather new. In the past…
Prabhupada: The two Bengals, they speak the same language.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Two… Yes.
Prabhupada: But West Pakistan, they speak Hindi, or Urdu.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: And the southern states are very conscious of their different languages.
Prabhupada: Actually, English language… Now we see. We have got the facility of speaking in English language all over the world. Yes.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: That is true. Yes.
Prabhupada: Whole America speaks English language. Australia, New Zealand. In India also, practically all educated men, they speak in English. So in Africa. In Europe also, they understand English language. Not very much, but… (laughs) The Germans, especially, they do not like.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes. No.
Prabhupada: They do not like.
Syamasundara: Only at the airport.
Prabhupada: France? What is the position in France? They don’t like also.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: No.
Prabhupada: In Canada, there is two languages, English and French.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes. And unfortunately, a great feeling between the two.
Prabhupada: This material world is based on jealousy. And spiritual world is based on friendship. That is the difference. So the, these materialistic persons, United Nations, League of Nations, they are trying to unite, but they, at heart, there is jealousy. So they can never become united. This is only bogus farce.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes.
Prabhupada: What do you think?
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes.
Prabhupada: They cannot be united because at heart there is jealousy. They go to the United Nations assembly. So one man is speaking with jealousy for the other. The other man is speaking (laughs) with jealous… So how they can be united? It is not possible.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes. Yes. No.
Prabhupada: Therefore, they should adopt this Krsna conscious platform. Paramo nirmatsaranam satam vastava vastu vedyam atra. So it is a very scientific movement. I would like that persons like you, you should take some little active part to push on this movement. (pause)
Syamasundara: Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: Hm.
Syamasundara: What do we mean by renunciation?
Prabhupada: Renunciation, practically, there is no question of renunciation. According to our philosophy… Just like father and the son. So son cannot renounce father’s protection or the property. Some way or other, he has to take advantage of it. But… Therefore renunciation means that as every son has got a right on the property of the father, similarly, every living entity has got right to live at the cost of God. But they should not encroach upon others’ right. That is renunciation.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes.
Prabhupada: But at the present moment, they are encroaching upon others’ right. And that is sinful, and he’s punishable. Just like every living entity has got the right to live at the cost of God. But the human being is interfering with the rights of living of the animals. They have got the right. As human being has got the right to live…
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes. I agree.
Prabhupada: …why not they? National. National means a living entity born in particular country. So at the present moment, the national means only human being. The animals are not nationals. They are being sent to the slaughterhouse. So this kind of sinful activities are going on. Therefore renunciation means to give up these sinful activities. That is real renunciation. Otherwise, you cannot renounce anything. You have to live. And that is allowed at the cost of God. Everything belongs to God. You are son of God. So you live. But don’t encroach… Ma grdhah kasya svid dhanam. That is the instruction of Isopanisad. Isavasyam idam sarvam. Everything belongs to God. Tena tyaktena bhunjitha. So you have got the right to enjoy what is allotted for you. Don’t encroach upon others’ right. This is renunciation. But they are encroaching upon others’ right. Especially the human society. And that is the cause of all troubles. Because they have no God consciousness, they have no sense about God, and there is no sense about next life… What is your opinion about life after death?
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: My opinion is that an individual human being is, in life in this world, is temporarily separated from the whole of spiritual reality, and after death we rejoin the reality that we are separated from.
Prabhupada: That is Christian idea.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes. After death… But so far I know, Christian there is consideration of hell and heaven.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes.
Prabhupada: Somebody is going to hell, somebody’s going to heaven. Is it not? After death?
Devotee: Yes, I think so.
Syamasundara: That was my understanding.
Devotee: That is the Christian idea.
Prabhupada: So, if there is question of hell and heaven, then we are responsible in this life for our next life, whether we are going to hell or heaven.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes. I would agree. Yes.
Prabhupada: So that is nice. There is next life. And according to your work, you get hellish life or heavenly life.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: And you would believe that karma is continuous from…
Prabhupada: Karma, yes.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: …one life to another.
Prabhupada: Yes, transferred. Yes.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes.
Prabhupada: That is practical. If you become nice student…
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Karma can be…
Prabhupada: …then, in future, you become a nice professor. But if you do not study nicely, how you can become a professor?
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes.
Prabhupada: So karma you cannot deny.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes.
Prabhupada: Similarly, in this life, my karma… That is stated in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, karmana daiva-netrena. According to your karma and by the supervision of superior authority, you get a body. Karmana daiva-netrena jantur deha upapattaye [SB 3.31.1]. The living entity gets a certain type of body according to the karma. And this is allotted by superior authority.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes.
Prabhupada: The people do not know all these things. They have no idea. They have no idea, neither… Even these things are there in the Vedic literature, they are not very much interested. And practically, in the darkness, they do not know what is next… I talked with Professor Kotofsky in Moscow. He, he is in charge of Indology. That gentleman told me, “Swamiji, after death there is nothing. Everything is finished.” So I was surprised, that such a learned man, and he has no idea of the transmigration of the soul. These are the defects of modern civilization. Those who are leaders, teachers, they are not sufficiently in knowledge.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: I think, in western countries now, people are very much afraid of death. It’s…
Prabhupada: Eh?
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Especially in America, people are very much afraid of… They won’t even mention or think about death which is a great weakness. One should be able to think about death.
Prabhupada: No, no. The thing is… That is natural. That is natural. Suppose if, after my death, I am going to become something lower than my present position, certainly I must be afraid of it.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes.
Prabhupada: Suppose if somebody gives me… This is a fact. Recently one astrologer has said that one of the biggest politicians in India, he has now become a dog in Sweden. May be correct or not, but there is possibility. There is possibility.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes.
Prabhupada: Because from the sastra we understand, karmana, by work, one has to… Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani sarvasah [Bg. 3.27] By prakrti, by nature, as we make… Just like if we eat little more, so by the laws of nature, immediately there is indigestion.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes.
Prabhupada: So you cannot deny this adjustment. So why not…? I am sufferer of my karma. So according to my karma, I get a body,…
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Prabhupada: …suffering or enjoyment. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita. Yanti deva-vrata devan pitrn yanti pitr-vratah [Bg. 9.25], bhutani yanti bhutejya… Who goes where—that is stated here. Urdhvam gacchanti sattva-stha madhye tisthanti rajasah [Bg. 14.18]. Everything is there. We can understand. We can understand where we are going. So one who is going to a higher level of life—and the most perfection of life is go back to home, back go Godhead—he’s not afraid of death.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes.
Prabhupada: Sadhu maro va jiva va. It is said, for a sadhu, saintly person, either he lives or dies, he has the same position, back to home, back to Godhead.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Karma can be changed for better or for worse.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes.
Prabhupada: Karma can be changed by bhakti. Otherwise, cannot be.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes. In each life.
Prabhupada: By bhakti. Karmani nirdahati kintu ca bhakti-bhajam [Bs. 5.54] That is stated in the sastras. The karma can be counteracted only by bhakti-bhajam, devotional service. Otherwise it is not. Therefore our duty is only to endeavor for advancing in Krsna consciousness, not to bother with other things, economic development. Because they are under the karma laws. So whatever happiness and distress under karma I am destined to suffer or enjoy, that will come automatically. So you haven’t got to try for it. But if you, if we do not try for development of Krsna consciousness, then we are wasting time. So far our other things are concerned, that will come and go according to karma.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes, yes. But not many people…
Prabhupada: Eh?
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Not many people in western countries are thinking about this now.
Prabhupada: That’s not very good.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: No.
Prabhupada: That’s not good.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: No.
Prabhupada: That means it proves less intelligence.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes.
Prabhupada: If they do not know the law of karma and the transmigration of the soul, change of body, that means no intellectual…
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes, yes. (pause)
Prabhupada: So let us…
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Now, in India more people are living in the western way, though, living in cities, working in factories and offices. Does this make them have the western state of mind, the western point of view? Or can they resist it?
Prabhupada: No, everything can be changed. If they take to Krsna consciousness. The consciousness has to be changed.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, that… Yes.
Prabhupada: Otherwise, let him work in the factory or in the office, in the city. It doesn’t matter. One has to change his consciousness. Then he’s perfect, Krsna conscious, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. That consciousness has to be changed. Then everything will be, automatically become…
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes. (pause)
Prabhupada: What book you are writing now?
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Oh, I’m writing a book about Greece, about the effect of ancient Greece on present-day Greece.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: The Greeks, like Indo-China, have a great past, and this is quite a difficulty for them. They’re rather overshadowed by their own past. They don’t quite know how to deal with it. I am writing about that.
Prabhupada: What is your view about connection of the old Greeks with India?
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: About the Greeks in India?
Prabhupada: Greek, Greek people and Indian.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: For several centuries they had a very important part in Indian history. Very important.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: A number of them changed their religion and adopted Indian religion, didn’t they. Yes.
Prabhupada: No, they… So far our Mahabharata is concerned, we understand that the Greek people came from India.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes.
Prabhupada: Originally.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: There’s that famous… [break]
Prabhupada: Pakistan is also now divided.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Also Indonesia, and they’re… On the surface they’re Muslims but underneath they’re Hindu, there’s been…
Prabhupada: I have been in Indonesia.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: You’ve also… Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes. Their culture is Hindu culture. But by religion they have accepted Muslim. They still, their names are Hindu names.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes.
Prabhupada: Names are Hindu. There Garuda, Garuda. The airway is Garuda. Garuda is the carrier of Visnu.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: I’ve seen their shadow plays, and all the subjects and the heroes are from the Indian history, the Indian epics, not from Muslim. So…
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: They all have two names. They have a Sanskrit name and an Arabic name, isn’t it?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes. I’ve also been in …
Prabhupada: And Java. Java, they are Hindus. Still. In Indonesia also, there are many Hindus. They have got their Vedic way of worship. They accept Visnu.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes.
Prabhupada: You were with me in Indonesia?
Devotee: No.
Syamasundara: Srila Prabhupada, what is your view of the future, the history, the future history?
Prabhupada: Oh, that is there, described in the Srimad-Bhagavatam. The, the governmental power will go to the rascals and thieves, rogues. And their only business will be how to exploit the people. So one side, by not sufficient rain, there will be scarcity of foodstuff, and one side, the government will tax like anything. In this way, people will be so much harassed that they will give up their hearth and home and go to the forest.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes.
Prabhupada: This will be done in Kali-yuga. And gradually, there will be no supply of grains. Especially rice, wheat, sugar, milk, these things will be finished. So people will be obliged to take flesh. These are all stated in the Srimad-Bhagavatam.
Syamasundara: In that case, is there any hope in a movement like ours to rectify the situation.
Prabhupada: Yes. If they take to Krsna co… That is also stated, kirtanad eva krsnasya mukta-sangah param vrajet. Kirtanad, by Krsna consciousness, one can become free from all these calamities and go back to home, back to Godhead. Only Krsna conscious people will be free from all these calamities. Others will have to suffer.
Syamasundara: So societies in general will not improve, but more people…
Prabhupada: Improve… Major portion is stated like that. But there is always light and darkness. Always. So the light party will be also there. This is the only, that take to Krsna consciousness. That is stated in the Srimad-Bhagavatam. Kaler dosa-nidhe rajann asti hy eko mahan gunah. In the Kali-yuga, it is an ocean of faults. Dosa-nidhi. Nidhi means ocean, and dosa means faults. But there is one opportunity. Kaler dosa-nidhe rajann asti hy eko mahan gunah. Very great profit. What is that? Kirtanad eva krsnasya. Simply by chanting Krsna’s name and becoming Krsna con…, one shall be freed from all these calamities and he’ll go back to home, back to Godhead. Simply by this. Kirtanad eva krsnasya. This very word is used. Mukta-sangah param vrajet. So this is the only shelter. If people take to Krsna consciousness, they’ll be saved from all the calamities of this age. Otherwise, there is no other… Now they are going to the forest, the hippies. Eh? Acchinna-dara-dravina gacchanti giri-kananam. Giri-kananam means to the forests, to the hills. They’ll go. Acchinna-dara-dravinam. Dara means wife, and dravina means money. So they’ll be separated from wife and money, and they’ll go to the forest and hills, being disappointed. This is happening already. Acchinna-dara-dravina gacchanti giri-kananam.
Syamasundara: Does this correspond, Mr. Toynbee, with your view of the future history?
Prabhupada: Yes, this is the future history. You can predict in your writings. Yes.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: With more people in politics in India, are they able to keep the Vedic ideal? Or…?
Prabhupada: No, no. They have given up.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: No.
Prabhupada: The politicians, they (say that) “These books are useless. Throw them in the water.” They say like that publicly. They are not interested. Rather, this movement, as I have now began with my disciples, European, American boys, they’re… They are not very satisfied, the present politicians. They are not very satisfied. They don’t want. Everywhere this, more or less the same mentality, but it is our duty on behalf of Krsna to push on this movement. So we are doing, and we are getting response. It is not without response. It will increase. That is also stated, that for ten thousand years Krsna consciousness movement will increase. Yes.
Syamasundara: Ten thousand years.
Prabhupada: Within ten thousand years, if they become Krsna conscious, then life is successful. After ten thousand years, the gloomy picture of Kali-yuga will come. Still there is time. Ten thousand years is not small period. So we have passed five thousand years. So still ten thousand. We have got to the fifteen thousand years. Kali-yuga’s duration of life is four hundred thousand, four hundred and twenty-seven thousand. Char-lakh murti saja. (?) Yes.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Do you travel much all over the world and…?
Prabhupada: Yes. At least twice in a year, all over the world. Just in April I was here, in London. April? Or May?
Syamasundara: May.
Prabhupada: May.
Syamasundara: Then to India.
Prabhupada: In the month of May I was here. Again I have come in July. Formerly, from India to come to London, it was like a dream. And now it is daily affair. (laughs)
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Prabhupada: You get on the plane in the morning and go in the evening there. Simply you have to pay. Otherwise, there is no difficulty. So let us… So thank you very much for your…
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: It was very kind of you to come.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: I’m sorry I couldn’t see you next week which would have been more convenient to you, but unfortunately next week I was very much occupied, and I’m very grateful to you for coming this afternoon. It was kind of you.
Prabhupada: Thank you. (pause)
Devotee: These are some of His Divine Grace’s books here, Dr. Toynbee.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Hm? Yes?
Devotee: And we’d like to leave them with you in fact.
Prabhupada: Any one you can take. There are so many.
Mukunda: Give first volume.
Prabhupada: Give him the first volume.
Devotee: This is First Canto, Part One of Srimad-Bhagavatam.
Syamasundara: With commentaries, Sanskrit…
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, this is the original text and the translation. Yes.
Syamasundara: Yes. This is Srila…
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: I have some small editions up here.
Prabhupada: But this is elaborate. (pause)
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Several. (laughs)
Syamasundara: Bhagavatam?
Devotee: Bhagavad-gita.
Syamasundara: Bhagavad-gita.
Devotee: Dr. Radhakrishnan’s, (indistinct) …ananda and Isherwood, Christopher Isherwood.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: I’m very grateful to this…
Syamasundara: This is Bhagavatam.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes.
Devotee: Have you studied Sanskrit, Dr. Toynbee?
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes? What?
Devotee: You have studied Sanskrit?
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Sanskrit? No, unfortunately not. No. No. (pause) This is a very fine edition, this. I’m very grateful for it. This is for me, is it?
Syamasundara: Oh yes. Please accept it.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Very kind of you. (pause, sounds like Srila Prabhupada is exiting) …other side(?).
Devotee: Thank you very much, Dr. Toynbee.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: I’m very grateful to you for coming. Yes.
Syamasundara: Thank you very much.
Devotee: Oh, my shoes.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Oh, have you left something behind?
Devotee: I left my shoes.
Syamasundara: (indistinct) …in the country lately, and we’re not used to wearing shoes. (laughter) Thank you very much for (indistinct). Hare Krsna. (end)