Room Conversation
with Banker
His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada
September 21, 1973, Bombay

Prabhupada: All these things are, they are simply maya. Maya-sukhaya bharam udvahato vimudhan [SB 7.9.43]. “These rascals, they are working so hard, making gorgeous arrangement. For what? For illusory sense gratification.” That sense gratification is also false. Real sense gratification is in Krsna and krsna-dhama. Hladini, sandhini, samvit. Perverted in this material life. Ahlada-tapa-kari misrayate tair na guna-varjite (?). Here ahlada, pleasure and tapa-kari, pain, and mixture of ahlada. This is the position. Tair na guna-varjite (?). This kind of pleasure is not in Krsna, guna-varjite, because He is free from the material condition. So anyway, the human life is only meant for… This is our mission, to teach that “You are simply wasting your time. Take to Krsna consciousness.” That is his only business. And next business is, those who cannot directly take to, then those, they should be helping this movement. Therefore we go door-to-door, to connect them, to be linked up with this movement, life member, this member, that member… They are misunderstanding, “They have no other good business. Transcendental fraud, giving us some book and taking money and eating and sleeping. They have got…” They are thinking like that.

Tamala Krsna: So we should preach strongly and they should know that we also preach.

Prabhupada: Yes, they should know that it is for their benefit we are making them life members, not for our benefit. And that should be the motive.

Tamala Krsna: They should give with that motive.

Prabhupada: Yes, we should deal with them so that they may develop their Krsna consciousness. If you simply make it a point, somehow or other take some money from them and let them go to hell, that is not… That is transcendental fraud. What do you think, Gargamuni?

Gargamuni: Yes. We have to preach. (S.P. laughs)

Prabhupada: Yes. If by the dress of sannyasi, you take some money and eat and sleep, then it is transcendental fraud. (SP laughs) (Hindi) Just like others are toiling, and we are getting money by some dress. That’s all. They are getting money by laboring hard, and we are getting money… In India, mostly the sannyasis, they do that. The priests also, they do that. This is our profession, just… My Guru Maharaja said that thakura dekhiye paya rasta karache, rastaye ’yandiya jivika badram karam bhari (?). Instead of earning livelihood by showing the Deity in the temple, it is better to take the profession of a sweeper in the street and live honestly. He said like that. The sweeper is working hard toiling and getting some money and living. This is honest living. But just like in Vrndavana, all the Goswamis. They have got their Deity. People are coming, contributing. Typical example, Gauracanda Goswami. Thakura dekhiye paisa rasta. (?) All the sevaites, they are meant for… Our Kunja Babu also planned like that. He thought, “By cheating all the God-brothers, I have got now Caitanya Matha. And people will come to see Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s birthplace, and I will get good income. And it will be distributed amongst my brothers and sons and myself. That’s all.” That is his scheme.

Tamala Krsna: Perfect material plan.

Prabhupada: Yes. It is another way of earning money. And he was always after Guru Maharaja only for this purpose. Guru Maharaja took that “Oh, this man is helping me.” But he had no such plan, to help Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati. He had the plan, “Keep Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati in front, earn money, and put it in my pocket.” That was his very beginning. He was taking money like anything. But he was a good manager. Other God-brothers complained, sannyasis. Guru Maharaja used to say that “Why you are complaining? You cannot reform him, your God-brother? And if I would have to keep expert manager like him, I would have to pay something. Suppose he is taking something, why do you grudge?” (Prabhupada laughing) He would say like that. So nobody could say anything. But after the demise, everything burst out. “Kunja Babu must be driven out.” That was the whole plan of Gaudiya Matha breakdown. The grudge was against Kunja Babu.

Tamala Krsna: Who is Kunja Babu?

Prabhupada: That Tirtha Maharaja. His name is Kunja Vihari Sar. So that was boiling in everyone’s heart. So as soon as Guru Maharaja passed away, so that burst out. And the whole plan was how to get out this Kunja Babu.

Tamala Krsna: Not how to preach.

Prabhupada: No. This was the cause of breakdown. This was suppressed by Guru Maharaja under his influence, but the rebellious was there during his lifetime. And it burst into… Therefore he advised that “You make a governing body and Kunja Babu should be allowed to remain manager.” This was directly spoken. He never asked anybody to become acarya. He asked that “You form a governing body of twelve men and go on preaching, and Kunja Babu may be allowed to remain manager during his lifetime.” He never said that Kunja Babu should be acarya. None, none of them were advised by Guru Maharaja to become acarya. His idea was “Let them manage; then whoever will be actual qualified for becoming acarya, they will elect. Why I should enforce upon them?” That was his plan. “Let them manage by strong governing body, as it is going on. Then acarya will come by his qualifications.” But they wanted that… Because at heart, they were, “After demise of Guru, I shall become acarya.” “I shall become acarya.” So all the acaryas began fight. One side, that Vasudeva Acarya and Sar Kunja Babu Acarya. And Paramananda, he thought that “Whoever will be powerful, I shall join them.” (laughing) He only thought. But Guru Maharaja never asked that these three men should be trustees. He wanted governing body. So the rebellion broke out immediately after his passing away. And then fight in the High Court. And Kunja Babu, he is very intelligent man. So from the very beginning he knew that “There will be fight after the demise of Guru Maharaja. So fight will be in the High Court. So at the expense of Guru Maharaja, let my brother and sons become attorneys and barrister so I will have not to pay all these things.” It was a planned thing. And that is being done. He was a clerk, it was not in his power to make his brother and sons attorneys and barristers. They were all made at the cost of Gaudiya Matha to fight with (indistinct) in favor of Tirtha Maharaja. These were the planned things. But I was a rotten grhastha. I did not join any one of them. (Prabhupada laughs) I was rotting in my household life. That’s all. But I was planning how to make, how to make this. That was my desire from the very beginning, since I heard it. But I was never with them, either this party or that party. And Guru Maharaja also recommended, apnader tasturi tublia thaki bhavan. Takhona (?). “When there will be need, he will do himself. There is no need of living with you. It is better to live apart from you.” When I was recommended by Goswami Maharaja to live in the Matha, that “He is so nice.” Sometimes he recommended. In Bombay, here in this Bombay. That house. Yes. He (Guru Maharaja) said “Yes, he is very expert. He can do. So it is better to live apart from you. And he will do everything when there is need.” He said. I could not understand. Although I was apart from them, a grhastha. In this Bombay I was doing business. (people talking outside)

Gargamuni: The man is here.

Prabhupada: Yes, yes, let them come.

Indian lady: (Hindi)

Prabhupada: (Hindi) [break] You are Indian?

American Banker: She knows the difference. She knows the…

Prabhupada: What is the philosophy of Muktananda?

Lady: No he wasn’t a philosopher, but in a way, he that meditation in the marga.

Prabhupada: That meditation, what is meditation?

Lady: I have not practiced that, but (indistinct) some dark room and…

Prabhupada: Dark room?

Lady: And he makes you concentrate on… Some people (indistinct) something…

Prabhupada: It is all “something,” nothing tangible.

Lady: I at least here practiced psychiatry of…

Banker: You go there, and you sit on cushions in a very dark room.

Prabhupada: He does not know. She does not know.

Lady: No, I never practiced it…

Prabhupada: She knows only “dark room.” That’s all. In darkness.

Lady: But we have not practiced by sitting there (indistinct)…

Banker: He has a regular schedule. He has aratis.

Prabhupada: What Deity?

Banker: He had a book in Sanskrit.

Prabhupada: What is that book?

Lady: Some prayers of the Lord.

Banker: His own prayers. They are not the Gita or anything. It is something separate. And they sing Hare Krsna Hare Rama… That’s why it’s not this Krsna consciousness because er…,

Prabhupada: He sings Hare Krsna?

Lady: No. Some different sort of prayers. He was learning that… He had one saint of his (indistinct)…

Banker: There’s a statue in the temple of some saint.

Lady: Nityananda Swami. He was his guru.

Prabhupada: Oh. He is not living? That Nityananda Swami is not living now?

Lady: No, no, he is dead.

Prabhupada: When he is dead?

Lady: I don’t know exactly because he had (indistinct) He was his devotee and (indistinct)

Prabhupada: So there is great difference between our… We worship Lord Krsna.

Lady: Juhu. May people might (indistinct), you are having (indistinct), it is very difficult for people to go there.

Prabhupada: In Juhu there are many men. Juhu people are not coming here. Similarly, these people will not go there. But at Juhu there are many men. So in Bombay, in any part of Bombay, itself a big city, any part of Bombay. But where we are getting such big land in the city? That is 20,000 square yards. And on the Juhu Beach. For this facility, yes. And a new town is growing here. You have been in Juhu?

Banker: I used to live there. Beach house.

Gargamuni: That big white house, that six story high building right on the beach, he used to live there.

Prabhupada: How do you like that place?

Banker: Very much. Quiet, peaceful. After a day of work in the bank it’s a very nice place to retreat to.

Prabhupada: Now, they were coming from Juhu to bank. So where is the difficulty? Such responsible officer, bank manager, they are coming and going, and you sannyasis cannot come and go? He has got responsible duties, he has to arrive in the office exactly in time.

Banker: It’s thirty-three minutes by train from Churchgate to Juhu.

Gargamuni: But now he’s not staying there. He’s staying in town.

Banker: That’s only because I’m going to New York next week. Only reason.

Prabhupada: That is not other reason. There are many officers of your bank might be living there?

Banker: National and Grindlay’s bank officers are there. Several British companies have officers there. I was the only American for awhile.

Tamala Krsna: So you’ll be moving out there again when you come back?

Banker: No, I’ve been transferred to New York. I’m in a hotel because my things are packed.

Prabhupada: You are going to New York?

Banker: Next week. I brought Bhanu, so in the future if you need any help, you just see her in the bank. She’s interested and aware.

Prabhupada: She’s going also with you?

Banker: She will be in Bombay. She’s at our main branch.

Prabhupada: You are working in the bank?

Lady: Yes.

Prabhupada: What is your post? Typing? No.

Banker: She’s a clerk in my department.

Prabhupada: I see. So our philosophy is Bhagavad-gita. You know Bhagavad-gita?

Lady: Yes, very little.

Prabhupada: That is standard. All big, big acaryas of India.

Banker: Is this the thousand-page book that you’re holding?

Gargamuni: Yes.

Prabhupada: So before leaving India, you can become a member. We have got many books, twenty books like that. This is published by MacMillan Company of New York.

Banker: Oh, this one is. Some of them are printed in New York.

Tamala Krsna: Some of these are. This one is the most popular. It is printed by MacMillan (indistinct) publishing house. They went through already three editions just in the first year. The sales manager at MacMillan reported that while all the other editions of Bhagavad-gita are declining in sales, ours was increasing. So there is a good a interest there. So many I think there are so many English Bhagavad…

Prabhupada: 645.

Gargamuni: This is the boy I told you who knows also Sanskrit and Bengali.

Banker: Oh yes, I saw the photograph of him.

Gargamuni: Yes, he is the same one. We call him Panditji.

Prabhupada: How he saw his photograph?

Gargamuni: I have a photograph of him with all his books. Very nice photograph.

Lady: Is this the same book that you have in three small editions?

Prabhupada: Yes, we have a small book.

Tamala Krsna: Krsna. That Krsna Book is a different book. The trilogy she is thinking about. That is still another book.

Prabhupada: Oh. Here is no Krsna book?

Tamala Krsna: The Trilogy we don’t have, but the big volume of Krsna.

Prabhupada: What is your name? Your name?

Lady: Bhanu.

Prabhupada: Bhanu? Gujarati?

Lady: Parsee.

Prabhupada: Parsee. I see. Parsees are Gujarati also.

Lady: We speak Gujarati and Parsee.

Prabhupada: Formerly the Parsees were prominent community in Bombay. They are big businessmen, important men.

Banker: Mr. Tata…

Prabhupada: Yes. Tata, Sarpiosa Mehta. (?) Now from the Parsee community no such big men are coming. What you think? Last big man was Nariman. You do not know? Nariman. He was of our age. I saw him. That Nariman Point. He was a political leader. Come on. So Nariman was a Parsee. I know that.

Lady: I know name like that, but…

Prabhupada: He was Subhash Bose’s contemporary. Yes. Of the same party. (pause) How is your son?

Gopala Krsna: Oh, he is very well.

Prabhupada: And father?

Gopala Krsna: Oh, he is okay too.

Prabhupada: Father, son, he’s middle.

Gopala Krsna: I am trying to make him Krsna conscious.

Prabhupada: Father. And mother?

Gopala Krsna: She’s a staunch Arya-samaji. She’s the chairman of the Santa Cruz Arya-samaj.

Prabhupada: Accha? Oh. What is the philosophy Arya-samaj?

Gopala Krsna: I don’t know. But she’s pleased, she likes Krsna, she likes our movement very much, but she still believes in Arya-samaj very strongly.

Prabhupada: Because she is president, how she can speak against them? (laughs) Arya-samajis are strictly forbidden to go to the temple.

Gopala Krsna: Yeah, but she comes to see you.

Prabhupada: Then she breaks the law.

Gopala Krsna: Last week we had a concert and she was selling tickets for our concert also. She helped little bit.

Prabhupada: Oh. And we do not do anything in darkness. Our everything is open.

Lady: No, what are you doing, that is for the sake of concentration or something you must be doing…

Prabhupada: But concentration. Best concentration in darkness is to sleep comfortable, no disturbance. If you make the room dark and go on sleeping, snoring, nobody is going to disturb you. That is best concentration.

Lady: What do you suggest for meditation?

Prabhupada: We don’t find anything in the Bhagavad-gita that “You should concentrate, meditate in darkness.” We take it as bogus. No religious system, even in Christianity, there is no such thing as darkness. Christian churches are very much illuminated. They pray. Prayer is there. The necessity. Why in darkness? That is his invention. Neither in Hinduism, neither in Buddhism, there is such recommendation that “You pray in the darkness.” Therefore it is bogus. Not standard. Why darkness? Naturally, if you make this room dark, you will feel sleepy. That is natural tendency.

Lady: (indistinct) meditation?

Prabhupada: The meditation you can do, just like we are also doing meditation, chanting Hare Krsna maha-mantra. But meditation as it is, to absorb the mind fully in God’s vision, that is very difficult nowadays, at the present moment. People’s mind is very disturbed. They cannot actually meditate. Therefore in this age, meditation, chanting the holy name of the Lord, that is recommended, congregationally. Just like we do, Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare, Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama… So there is no need of dark room. Just like this boy. He is also a responsible officer in New York. He is also chanting. All these sannyasis. And we have got all these beads. So there is no need of meditating in darkness. We are going on the open street. We are chanting Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare Hare Rama… There is no difficulty. Neither we have to select a dark place. Anywhere. Just like I am talking with you, they are chanting. Their chanting is not stopped. So why should you go to a dark room? It is open thing. And it is open for everyone, in any moment. There is no hard and fast rule, that “You have to do like that, do like that.” Simply you have to chant, anywhere possible. Suppose if you leave this room, you go on the street, you can chant, Hare Krsna, Hare… Nobody… There is no taxation. There is no loss. But the gain is very great by chanting. And this is recommended in this age, not sophistically to find out a dark room. No. It may be suitable for a particular person. But for mass of people, where is the facility of getting a dark room while going on the street? Suppose you are going on the street or in a car to your office, can you arrange for the dark room? But you can chant Hare Krsna without any dark room. So which is better? For concentrating your mind, for meditating, if you have to make so many facilities arrangement, and without any arrangement, if you can do, which one is better? Without any arrangement. That is Hare Krsna mantra. Without any arrangement, immediately you can chant Hare Krsna. Without any consideration of your age, of your religion, of your country, of your nationality, of your color, caste, anything. Chant Hare Krsna. And that is being done, and the whole world is accepting. We are not recommending that “Go to a dark room.” Neither it is required. Everything must be for mass benefit. That is only this Hare Krsna movement. What do you think?

Banker: I haven’t read most of this. I have a tiny one in my hotel room. There is a Gita society in this country, leaves a Gita in every hotel room. I have only read a few selections. Like the Gideons, the Bible. You go in any hotel in India now and you have one Bible placed by the Gideons and one Gita by this Gita (indistinct)

Prabhupada: Gita Press. Sit down, I am coming. [break] In the U.S., I understand, there are 75,000 libraries.

Gopala Krsna: But lot of the libraries in U.S. are running short of funds because the Nixon administration has withdrawn the support of the funds that they were giving to the various libraries.

Prabhupada: State aid?

Gopala Krsna: Yes. They have withdrawn the aid.

Prabhupada: Why?

Gopala Krsna: So now the libraries are complaining about the shortage of money.

Prabhupada: (To Tamala) Bring the other light. The second one, down. Yes. How is that. It is not in order? First one. [break]

Banker: I haven’t found a common yardstick yet. I prefer my own, but that’s measured by my yardstick.

Tamala Krsna: I think you also prefer this country’s, Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: Yes, sincerely. Therefore I went to your country, to start this movement.

Banker: So many people in this country have argued with me and have told me that… They haven’t been out of India, but they have told me that their country is better.

Prabhupada: Indians?

Banker: Yes.

Tamala Krsna: They say their country is better, but I don’t think…

Banker: And they never left India. I don’t know how they make this comparison. They say they have happiness here and we have wealth, and because of our wealth we are unhappy people.

Prabhupada: The Americans say?

Banker: No, no, that is what they say here. Especially in my bank. Our clerks are the top five per cent of the nation’s income earners, five thousand rupees or more a year, near the top five percent. But they still say that they’re poor and happy. But then once a year they forget that when they ask us for more money. I don’t understand it. Contradictory philosophy.

Prabhupada: There are two things. One material, one spiritual. Spiritually, India is happy, those who are actually spiritualists. But materially, India is unhappy. Spiritually, even if you still go in the interior of village, poor man, living in a cottage, he is taking bath three times and doing his professional work, a cultivator, having little food, and chanting Hare Krsna. They are happy actually. They have got their family, husband, wife, some children. If one lives spiritual life, he is actually happy. Materially, nobody can be happy. In your country, although there is enough facility for material enjoyment, actually they are not happy. Otherwise why in your country the hippies are coming out? They are coming from respectable, rich parents, nation, but they have given up their home, their father’s opulence, mother’s opulence. That I have seen practically. Practically all my students… Here, Brahmananda, his father, at least he was a big industrialist, mother. But he did not like. He joined this movement. Similarly, Giriraja, his father is a big lawyer, rich man. But he did not like that. There are many, many students, their father’s are… Syamasundara’s father is big lawyer, rich man, businessman. He is the only son. But he did not like his father. So there are many… Even though he is not our student, still, I do not know. I have seen in Los Angeles, Beverly Hills. You know? That is a rich quarter. Very nice house. And one boy is coming, he is hippie, and riding on his car and going. Then I saw, although it is such a nice rich quarter, there are also hippies. That I could study. Why these boys are becoming hippies? And New York you know, the hippies are lying here and there in Fifth Avenue, Central Park, and they are worshiping pig. (laughs) You know that?

Banker: Yes, I know.

Prabhupada: He also knows. Why this disappointment?

Banker: We have had a long history of debate in America over wealth. We have had one group, the fundamentalist Protestants, who argue that… Most of them are poor, and they feel very guilty if they have money. And then you have another group of Protestants, the Gospel of Wealth Protestants, who say that if you are truly holy, then it is better that the money be entrusted to your hands than to a man who is unholy. And then you have still another group that regards money as an end in itself, rather than a means to, committing you to do other things, And this confuses people in America. Your parents will be one thing, you’ll be another. In my case, my mother is a Gospel of Poverty person. Blessed are the poor. She thinks you won’t get into heaven unless you are poor. And I’m in the Gospel of Wealth category. (laughter) And you just select your own philosophy along the way. Carnegie was in that philosophy. He even wrote a book about it a one hundred years ago. The steel Carnegie, Carnegie steel.

Prabhupada: Yes, Carnegie’s name I know.

Banker: He was one of the number one advocates of this philosophy, that if you are holy, then the money should be in your hands, because you can use it for better purposes.

Prabhupada: That is a good philosophy.

Banker: Therefore, then he started building libraries all over the country and everything else, besides his steel company. But this has been a big fight. It still is a big fight. Today you have the people who support welfare and those who oppose it.

Prabhupada: No. We don’t oppose wealth.

Banker: Welfare. Payment to people who don’t work.

Prabhupada: No, everyone should work. Our Vedic philosophy is that everyone must work. But there must be division of work. Just like in your body there are different parts. The head department, the arms department, the belly department, and the legs department. These are different parts. So all these departments must work for the total benefit of the body. That is our philosophy. Nobody should sit idle. But he must work according to his capacity. Brain must work for giving direction. Hand must work for giving protection. Belly must work for supplying food, energy. And leg must work for carrying the body. So similarly the society must be divided: the brain of the society, the arms of the society, the belly of the society and the legs of the society. That will make perfection. The brain will give direction That is the brahmanas. The arms will give protection. That is the ksatriya. And the belly will give energy, food, that is vaisya. And the legs will carry the body. That is sudra. This is… Whole society should be divided into four divisions, the brahmanas, the ksatriyas, the vaisyas and the sudras. And they should work cooperatively for the total benefit of the body. This is perfect life. Not that everyone should be brain. Then who will carry me? Just like in your bank, the manager is the brain. The secretaries and assistants are the hands, clerks. And ordinary worker, they are legs. Anywhere you go, you must find out these four divisions. Therefore the human society must be divided into four divisions. But there is no such plan. Now the plan is that everyone is being educated to learn technology, how to… In your country, especially. How to make economic development. So they have no brain. Therefore there are hippies. There is no brain actually. Now, the President Nixon, he is in the topmost post. He has no brain. Therefore he is being ridiculed. Neither he has honor. He is not resigning the post. He has been ridiculed by the people, but still, he is sticking to his post. So this is the defect. You have got in your country only the vaisyas, the belly and the legs. I am just giving a crude example. Not only in your country, every country nowadays. There is no brain. Brain is finished. Therefore everywhere you will find chaos and confusion. There is no brain. So this Krsna consciousness movement means we are creating some brain. We are not creating the technological expert, but we are creating brain to know the purpose of human life and work on it under a systematic way. That is Krsna consciousness. It is not such bluff that “In darkness you meditate this, that,” no. It is a science. It is a science, how the human society can be happy in all respects. And everything is directed there in the Bhagavad-gita. Just like to keep up your body fit, you require brain in order, your arms in order, your stomach in order, your legs in order. Everything must be in order. But out of all of them, if there is no brain, then everything is useless. The hand is useless, the stomach is useless, the leg is useless. So at the present moment there is no brain in the society. Lack of brain. All these things, directions, are there in the Bhagavad-gita. What is the brain, or brahmana? Find out this verse, samo damas titiksa, in the Eighteenth Chapter. Jnanam vijnanam astikyam brahma-karma svabhava-jam.

Srutakirti:

samo damas tapah saucam ksantir arjavam eva ca jnanam vijnanam astikyam brahma-karma svabhava-jam [Bg. 18.42]

“Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge and religiousness—these are the qualities by which the brahmanas work.”

Prabhupada: So those who will act as brain, they must possess these qualities. But who is being taught these qualities? This modern civilization is teaching people how to steal, how to cheat, how to satisfy your own sense gratification. You see? No tolerance, no complete knowledge. All fools and rascals, no knowledge. Knowledge means they must know what is the aim of life, what is God, what we are, what is this material world, why we have come here. So many things. This is called God consciousness. There is no such educational institution all over the world. Is there any institution where it is being especially taught what is God, what I am. Is there any institution?

Banker: Well, there are metaphysics departments in almost every university.

Prabhupada: Metaphysics department is there. I was also a student of philosophy. That is theories only. Of course, they are trying, psychology, metaphysics, ethics. You were also a student of philosophy?

Banker: I took some courses. My major courses were in business. But I took some in philosophy, ethic, logic.

Prabhupada: So apart from that metaphysical, from this worldly platform, there must be divisions. Just like in your bank, if everyone is manager, that is not possible. There must be clerks and other assistants. So that is required. The society must be divided into four classes. That is brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra.

Banker: My question is how does one determine into which part he goes?

Prabhupada: Yes. That is by tendency. Guna-karma-vibhagasah. By the tendency. Therefore one has to approach the spiritual master. He will give direction that “This boy is meant for becoming a brahmana.” Everyone has got some tendency. From the tendency it should be designated. Or by work.

Lady: But originally it wasn’t like that. Suppose if you are born into brahmana, fortunately, then you become brahmana.

Prabhupada: No, no, that is not. No, no, no. No, that is not sastra. That is a… Lately, this brahminical class, they made it. Just like he is a manager in the bank. His son does not mean that he is also manager. He must be qualified to become a manager. He has got the facility. Because he is son of a bank manager, so he can get some facilities, father’s training. He can quickly become a manager. Others may take time. Similarly, a person born in brahmana family, if his father is actually brahmana, then automatically he is getting the brahminical training at home. This satya, sama, dama, titiksa, arjavam, this qualification. Because naturally the children follow the father. So if the father is a real brahmana, then he naturally becomes. But if by chance he develops the sudra quality, then he must be accepted as sudra, not as a brahmana. That is the sastra. Yad anyatrapi drsyeta tat tenaiva vinirdiset [SB 7.11.35] If the qualities, brahminical qualities are found somewhere else in sudra or a vaisya, then he should be accepted as brahmana. Similarly if sudra qualities are found in the son of a brahmana, he should be accepted as sudra. It is the quality, not the birth. That is not a fact. They have made it now like that. Because without any qualification, if he can become a brahmana, why he should not take the advantage? That has fallen down the Vedic culture in India, when it came to the caste system. It is not the caste system by birth. In Bhagavad-gita it is said, “By quality…” guna-karma-vibhagasah. Read that, catur-varnyam maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasah [Bg. 4.13].

Brahmananda: Catur-varnyam maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasah [Bg. 4.13]. Guna means quality, karma means the work.

Prabhupada: Yes. Just like he is manager. He has got the qualification of manager and he is working as manager. Then he is a manager. Even if he has got the quality, if he does not work, he is not a manager. Suppose he has got the qualities, but he does not work, he sits at home, nobody will call him bank manager. He must have the qualities and he must work. Then he is. So here is guna-karma-vibhagasah. A brahmana or ksatriya or vaisya or sudra must have the requisite quality. And at the same time he must work as such. Then he is brahmana. This is the (indistinct). But now in India they have taken: no quality, no work, still, he is brahmana. He is pulling on thela, no brahmana quality, neither work is brahmana, but still, he is panditji. I have seen it in Calcutta. One man was pulling on thela with great difficulty, and another man is offering respect, “Panditji, namaskara.” And he was… (Hindi) He was pulling thela. I have seen it. I have seen it in the street. You see. He is still thinking that “I am brahmana.” He is working like an ass. He has no qualification. Neither he is qualified. Still, he is thinking that he is brahmana. Is it not? Yes. That is the cause of India’s falldown. You work… These things should be… I am accepting somebody as brahmana; then I must see that he has the quality of brahmana, that is there, satya, sama, dama, titiksa, and he is working as a brahmana. When this was not examined, checked, anyone born in a brahmana family became a brahmana, the whole thing topsy- turvied. Just like my student here. He belongs to the ksatriya family. But he is not in the fighting, military plan. So he is not ksatriya. But he is now more than ksatriya. He is worshiping God. Therefore he is brahmana. He is neither ksatriya nor sudra. He is brahmana. His hereditary title is ksatriya, Ksanna. Ksat na, ksat na. He cannot tolerate injury to others. That is ksanna. Is it not?

Gopala Krsna: I think so.

Prabhupada: Ksat means injury, and triya means one who delivers. Just like Pariksit Maharaja, immediately took his sword, “Oh, why you are injuring one cow in my kingdom?” The ksatriya’s business is to give protection to the citizens from being injured by others. That is called ksatriya. Brahmana means whose knowledge is so perfect that he knows what is God. That is brahmana. And sudra means one who laments. Socati ti sudra. (?) Socati.

Srutakirti: Na socati na kanksati.

Prabhupada: Socati means in everything he laments. “Hai hai, I have lost so much things, I have not these things, I have not that thing.” So at the present moment, all the people, they are so dissatisfied that they are all sudras. Sudra is always in want. So who is not, at the present moment, not in want? Everybody’s in want. Therefore everybody is a sudra now. Kalau sudra-sambhavah. And that is his qualification, always feeling in want, socati. And his work is to serve others, master. A brahmana will not work under anybody. A ksatriya will not work under anybody. Nowadays the industrial development has taken place because people are sudras. They want some service. So-called technologists and laborers, and everything. Everyone is searching after good job. He cannot live independently, just like a dog. A dog cannot live independently. He must have a master. Then he is happy. Is it not? Otherwise it is street dog. So modern education is that they are creating sudras, to become dependent on others. And therefore modern economic development is taking place because there are so many people, they are prepared to give them service. Suppose in your bank, if you withdraw from the service, the bank will stop. Industry will stop. So because there is no such division as brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra. Everyone is sudra. Therefore this economic development, so-called economic development, has become possible. But in spite of all this economic development, because people are sudras, they cannot be happy. Because socati, they will lament, strike. Even they are getting thousands of rupees, strike. Even they get five hundred thousands of rupees, still there will be strike. Because they are sudras.

Gopala Krsna: Even the doctors are going on strike now.

Prabhupada: Yes. They are sudras. Therefore, because it is the society of sudras everywhere, there is confusion. No brain. Simply socati, “want, want, want, want, want.” And in brahminical culture, you will find even he is very poor brahmana, no source of income, no fixation of foodstuff even, but he is happy. He is happy. He is happy by his knowledge. He’ll satisfy himself. If he does not get his food, then he will think that “This day Krsna desired that I should not have my food. Oh, it is Krsna’s pleasure. It is Krsna’s mercy.” Therefore in Vedic culture, other section, the ksatriyas and the vaisyas, they would call the brahmanas to take food. Brahmana-bhojana. Because they know, “The brahmanas, they will starve; still they will not ask anybody to give him food.” Therefore brahmana-bhojana. And now they have discovered daridra-narayana-bhojana. There are so many things. Vedic culture is the perfect for human society, perfect culture. And this is not bogus humbug, go into the darkness and do something nonsense. It is everything open, in the sastra, in the book. You have to adopt it. Then you become happy. The whole society, the whole human society becomes happy, never mind where it is. It is science, how to live just like human being, not like cats and dogs. That is Vedic culture. Everyone is happy. Still, those who are following Vedic principles, they are happy than others. These Arya-samajis, they say, the Vedic culture, but they are not happy as the strictly followers of Vedic culture.

Gopala Krsna: I think there is a lot of politics in it.

Prabhupada: Yes, yes. As soon as you go against the standard rules and regulations, there must be some motive. That is politics. That is politics. All politicians, they are with motive. They are not for… Now, all these big, big political parties, they are fighting with one another. They are simply trying to keep their post and they are fighting for that. So where is the time for them to think of the general people, how they will be happy? There is no time. It is the Krsna conscious people who are actually thinking of others. Para-duhkha-duhkhi. Krpambudhir yas tam aham bhajami. Para-duhkha-duhkhi. Vaisnava qualification is he is unhappy by seeing others… [break] Let us enlighten them. Otherwise what is the use of working in this old age? (Aside:) Come on. Vaisnava’s qualification is para-duhkha-duhkhi. He is unhappy by seeing others unhappy. Because without God consciousness, without understanding “What I am, what is God, what is my relationship,” everyone shall remain unhappy. There cannot be happiness. Without knowledge of God, nobody can be happy. Superficially they may try, so-called humanitarianism, this ism, that ism. Now, say for these Communists country, they have struggled for the last sixty years. They started from 1917. How many years?

Gopala Krsna: Seventy.

Tamala Krsna: The Russian Revolution.

Prabhupada: Seventy. Seventy. Yes, no, we were student at that time. So what they have done? They are changing, changing, changing. And I went to Moscow, I saw the people were not happy. There are so many things that is against one’s psychological understanding. So many things. Therefore now they are going to hold some peace conference. Who told me? Oh, yes, Hamsaduta. So without God consciousness, there cannot be any peace. That’s a fact. Therefore our Krsna consciousness movement is there. Tomorrow, when you are going?

Gopala Krsna: Me? Tomorrow night. I’ll come here tomorrow also.

Prabhupada: Yes, I will give you some letters for Bali Mardana.

Gopala Krsna: Bali Mardana? [break]

Brahmananda: At MIT. At other colleges I was present.

Prabhupada: So that very time so I first of all asked the students, “Where is your technological department to find out the thing when a man is dead, and you replace it?” These were my subject matter. I talked. A man is working. (Aside:) come on. A man is working. All of a sudden he stops to work. So a motor car is working. All of a sudden it stops. So there are technologists who can repair the car and it will again start. That is technology. Now the man is working, stopped. So where is that technology to make it move again. That was… I spoke on this. So they very much appreciated. After my lecture they gathered round me. You remember that? No.

Gargamuni: I wasn’t there.

Prabhupada: So actually, in this, at the present moment, they have invented so many technology, but this technology is missing. Janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi. Nobody wants to die. And where is that technology, to stop death? What so you think? You are financing many technological institutions, businesses. Why don’t you finance an institution which is giving instruction how to stop death?

Banker: But as I understood it, you were encouraging death as a form of liberation. Isn’t that my understanding? That that was the ideal?

Prabhupada: No, no. Therefore you are not financing. Because you misunderstand. Actually, we are giving the technological knowledge by which one stops death. This is Krsna consciousness. Find out that verse.

Acyutananda: Janma karma ca me divyam evam yo vetti tattvatah [Bg. 4.9]?

Prabhupada: Yes. You can stop your death. That technology we are teaching. [break]

Brahmananda: …tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti so ’rjuna [Bg. 4.9]

Prabhupada: Yes. Read it.

Brahmananda: Janma is birth, karma is work ca, also, me, of mine, divyam, transcendental, evam. [break]

Prabhupada: :…technology. If you simply try to understand Krsna, His activities, His appearance, His disappearance, this technology, then you also become like Krsna. No more birth, no more death, no more disease. This is science. In this life if you simply try to understand what is Krsna, then you become immune from birth, death, old age and disease. So if you don’t like… Not you, mean the people. They say, “No, we don’t like Krsna consciousness…” But you are so much advanced in science and technology. Where is your technology? That was my question in the Massachusetts Technological… “Where is your technology to stop this death?” Nobody wants to die. Is it not a fact? So where is that technology that human society has given, has been awarded with this profit by such and such great scientist that people will no more die, no more disease, no more birth, no more old age? Nobody wants to become old. Nobody wants to get an old body like me. Rheumatic troubles. Nobody wants. But I am forced to accept. Where is that technology? I was also young man like you. I would like to go back again to that young life, but there is no possibility. So where is that technology? Real problems of life are not solved. Because there is no knowledge. Lack of knowledge.

Banker: According to the scientific finds of Dr. Alexander Leaf of Harvard Medical School, it is impossible to lengthen life infinitely, physically, because the cell is not capable of regenerating itself more than fifty times.

Prabhupada: Yes, that we admit. But we are not material. We are spiritual. That is…

Banker: Correct. You are not talking about the physical.

Prabhupada: Ah. Physical is my outward dress. Just like your coat, if it becomes old enough, there is no more possibility to use it. You have to throw it away. You have to take another coat. Similarly, physically, I am spirit soul. When my physical body is old enough, useless, then I will have to give it up. I will have to accept another new body. But the question is that I am eternal; why I am forced to accept a body which will be useless after some time? That is the problem. I am eternal, as spirit soul. Na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg. 2.20] I do not die after the annihilation of this body. But why I am forced to accept another body, which will be annihilated? This technology is unknown all over the world. And still they are proud of becoming very advanced in science. (Aside:) Open this. Let them come. Keep it open. Janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi-duhkha-dosanu… Come forward. [break] …technology, although it is a problem. But we can supply this technology, to solve this problem. Jara-marana-moksaya mam… Jara-marana-moksaya. [break] …modern technologist, scientists, they do not know what is the perfection of life. Now, they are thinking that having a big building, possessing big building, and possessing a few cars and nice bank balance, that is perfection of life. But suppose you get a very nice home, very nice big bank balance, and other amenities. But there is every possibility that as soon as you prepare all these things, you have to go away immediately, death. There is no guarantee that “After finishing this job, I shall be able to enjoy these things.” At any moment you can be asked, “Get out.” So this labor, so much labor for creating nice residential quarters, bank balance, and others, that is my futile labor because I could not enjoy it. Therefore this is not perfection of life. If there is no guarantee of enjoying what you are creating, then where is the perfection? You create things for enjoyment, but you enjoy it. But there is no guarantee of enjoyment. At any moment you’ll be asked, “Get out.” Is that perfection? You create things. That’s all right. But you enjoy it. But there is no guarantee. Just like I saw in Paris that arch. Napoleon wanted to make an arch. You know… No, you have not been in Paris?

Banker: Yes, I’ve been to Paris.

Prabhupada: Yes, that arch, what is that called, arch?

Devotees: Arc de Triomphe.

Prabhupada: Ah. So Napoleon was. But before constructing that arch, he was finished in battle of Waterloo. So all the struggle he made to make France a great country and him to become a great leader was futile. It was not perfectly done. In one statue I saw, “France and Napoleon identical.” But France is there; where is Napoleon? Therefore it is called illusion, maya. Just like our Gandhi, in this country, he struggled so hard, got independence. But just after independence he was killed, finished. He could not enjoy. He simply struggled. You cannot say that he had no desire to enjoy. Then how he was sticking to that politics? And because he was sticking to that politics, he was killed. If he would have retired from politics, he would not have been killed. Therefore because he was sticking to that politics means he wanted to enjoy the fruit. But he could not. Therefore we do not know what is the perfection of life. Because we create so-called paraphernalia of perfection of life, but we are not allowed to enjoy it, therefore we must accept, “There is superior power. Without His sanction I may create very favorable situation, but I may not be allowed to enjoy it.” Suppose you are bank manager. If the post is that “Yes, you will be appointed to day and tomorrow you will be kicked out.” Will you accept it?

Banker: Happens all the time.

Prabhupada: (Prabhupada laughs) So you have been accustomed to this kick out. Yes, actually, that is the position. We have been accustomed in the kicking out of maya. maya rati kaya. (?) There is a…, in Caitanya-caritamrta, that we are being kicked out by maya like football. From that side it is kicked. I come this side, and from this side, I am kicked. I am going that side. That’s all. This is our happiness.

Guru dasa: But the question was if one is knowingly going to be kicked out.

Prabhupada: No, knowingly, no sane man will go. But because he is ignorant, he is making plan to be happy, and one day it comes, “Kick out! Go out!” That is ignorance. Therefore sudra. Therefore our perfection of life should be, that is recommended in the sastra, brahma-saukhyam anantam. You should aspire of happiness which is unlimited. You will never be kicked out from that happiness. That is the idea. Tapo divyam putraka yena suddhyed sattvam yasmad brahma-saukhyam anantam. This is the instruction. You must try for a place where you get eternal life, eternal bliss, eternal knowledge. That is perfection.

Banker: In order to seek that, you have established a routine in your life so that you do not waste time thinking about the mundane.

Prabhupada: There is education, proper… This is education, this Krsna consciousness.

Banker: Well, you could say the same for the lower group people who work one third of their life in business, spend one third in sleep, and spend one third in whatever else they want to do. That is also a routine.

Prabhupada: What is that? I do not follow.

Banker: My point is that the average person lives a very similar type of routine even if… Those who do not take business as an end in itself spend one-third of their life doing that. They spend one third of their life sleeping and they spend one third doing what they want to do.

Prabhupada: Why one third? They are sleeping more than half.

Banker: Seeking what you call happiness. Just as in your life you get up at three o’clock, you do a certain thing at that time, go around on a schedule, so you don’t have to think about the mundane, and you seek the eternal happiness.

Prabhupada: Therefore I have already explained. There must be a class of men like me. They are called brahmana. They should help others. One who cannot rise so early, they will help him by his knowledge. He, the man who cannot rise early in the morning and cannot take the brahminical principle, sudra, ksatriya, vaisya, he should be helped with the knowledge acquired by the brahmana. Just like the same example. The leg. Leg is not brain. The brain will give direction to the leg, “You go this side.” Then it is perfect. The leg has no brain, but the brain is there. If he takes the advice of the brain and goes… Just like… It is called the logic of blind and lame. There is a lame man and there is a blind man. The lame man cannot walk, and the blind man cannot see. They should join. The blind man took the lame man on his shoulder, and the lame man giving direction, and the blind man is going nicely. So by the cooperation of the blind and the lame, the work is done perfectly. Andha-kanjata-nyaya. Similarly, it is not required that everyone has to become brahmana. Neither it is possible. So if the brahmana and the sudra combine together, work, then both their lives will be perfect. Here you cannot expect everyone as brahmana, in this material world. That is not possible. Because in the material world three qualities are working. So one may be brahmana, another may be ksatriya, another may be vaisya, another may… So they should cooperate. Then everyone’s life will be perfect. That is the program. That is catur-varnyam maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasah [Bg. 4.13]. So the Krsna consciousness movement means we are creating brahmanas. So others, they should cooperate. Then their life will be also perfect. Just like these people are preaching that “You chant Hare Krsna mantra and refrain from sinful activities.” So if people take advice from these men, simple thing… Chanting Hare Krsna mantra is not difficult. Anyone can chant Hare Krsna. And no illicit sex life. No… Even one cannot follow these restrictions, if he chants, he will be benefited. But if he chants and follows these restrictive rules, then he will be perfect in this life. And that is not difficulty. Suppose if I do not eat meat. We are not eating meat. We are not dying. We are eating so many nice things, prepared from vegetables, grains, milk. So that is not very important thing, that one has to eat meat and commit sinful life. So anyone can avoid it. They are not smoking, they are not drinking, they are not dying. So without smoking or without drinking, nobody will die. There are many things. No illicit sex. Why illicit sex? You are human being. You should have taken a woman as married wife and live peacefully. Why illicit sex? So still, if he cannot follow the four rules and regulations, if he agrees to chant only, then all other good qualities will come. And if these things are combined together refraining from sinful activities and chanting Hare Krsna mantra—he is sure to become perfect in this life (and) go back to home, back to Godhead. That’s all. Because without being purified, you cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Yesam tv anta-gatam papam. One who is freed from all sinful activities, he can be allowed to enter into the kingdom of God. The kingdom of God means the place for the pure, not for the impure. And impurity means sinful activities. So therefore Krsna says, “You surrender unto Me. I give you protection from impure,” because… Aham tvam sarva-papebhyah. Because by impure life, they have committed so many sinful activities. But not that I surrender to Krsna and I continue my impure life. Krsna can forgive you, whatever impurities are there, “All right, squared up. Don’t do it.” Ara nare baba. (?) Jagai and Madhai. Jagai and Madhai said, “No sir, no more this life. Yes, I accept.” Caitanya Mahaprabhu immediately accepted. Not that that confession system, go to the church-conference on Sunday and again come back, on Monday begin again sinful activities, and again go to church on Sunday and confess and nullify it. Not like that. When you deny that “I shall not do it,” don’t do it again. Then your life is perfect. Ara nare baba.(?) (end)