Morning Walk Conversation
with His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada
April 10, 1974, Bombay

Prabhupada: …yogic practice. So to save oneself from the influence of material laws. [break]

Giriraja: “…executed all religious principles. In this way you were able to cleanse your heart and control the influence of material law. In executing your austerities you used to eat only the leaves of the trees which fell to the ground.” [break] …takes birth in other planets are the same Devaki and Vasudeva, His parents?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Giriraja: Then how is it that after they gave birth to Krsna this time they went back to Godhead?

Prabhupada: What is the objection?

Giriraja: Well, according to the usual way of thinking, we think that if somebody if… Well, that doesn’t apply in this case. [break]

Prabhupada: …the universe, Krsna may have another devotee like them. If there is another universe, why not another couple? There is everything another. Because we are limited, we want to make Krsna always limited. How it can be? We should always remember Krsna’s inconceivable omnipotency. [break] …know how many thousands of couple are there because Krsna’s, that birth is going on every moment. Therefore it is called nitya-lila, in this universe immediately born, that that birth, that pastime, is again immediately manifested in another universe. He has grown old two days; so the same form again in another universe. The same example. Just like 6:30 AM on the sun, solar calculation, immediately in another country, 6:30 AM. Is it not?

Mahamsa: Yes.

Giriraja: [break] …the position of being Krsna’s parents or hearing Bhagavad-gita or being a cowherd boyfriend, can be filled by different living entities qualified in the different universes.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Satsvarupa: But that makes them sound like they are posts instead of individuals. I thought you once said that Arjuna, he always stays in the material universes. He’s a person and he always travels with Krsna, not that it’s a post.

Prabhupada: Everyone, all the associates of Krsna, like Krsna. [break]

Giriraja: Right now Krsna is in so many different universes.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Giriraja: And He is having the same pastimes.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Giriraja: And in each universe there is an Arjuna.

Prabhupada: Everything.

Giriraja: Everything. So is it the same living soul, Arjuna, in each universe, or a different living being may be taking that position?

Prabhupada: Take it for granted, different. What is the wrong there? After all, everyone is Krsna’s expansion. Ananda cinmaya-rasa-pratibhavitabhih. We are also expansion. (aside:) Hare Krsna. But still, we have got individuality. Krsna proved it—I explained that in Vrndavana when everything was stolen by Brahma. Again another batch of cows and calves and cowherds boys. (aside:) Hare Krsna. Immediately. What is the difficulty for Krsna? Is it clear or not? You wanted to clarify. Is it clear or not?

Satsvarupa: Yes, you said the answer is that it’s different persons, not just one Arjuna, not just one Yasoda.

Prabhupada: Just like I have got hundred branches. Each branch I have got a set of my sitting room, of my books and everything. And wherever I go I see the same place. If it is possible for an ordinary man to have a hundred sets of the same thing, why not for Krsna?

Giriraja: So in each branch you have a different cook, different president, different treasurer…

Prabhupada: But the set is there, what I want. The set is there.

Giriraja: Yes. Now in the case of Jaya and Vijaya, who fell down and took the role of demons, after three births as demons, they were supposed to go back to the spiritual world. So after the three births in this universe, were the same pastimes going on in other universes.?

Prabhupada: Yes, why not? Whenever Krsna desires that He is to fight with somebody, another must prepare himself for fighting, becomes His enemy. Because in the Vaikuntha world there is no chance of fighting, therefore He sends His devotees to become His enemy and there He fights.

Giriraja: So other living entities would play the part of Ravana in other universes?

Prabhupada: Why not? Or any other way.

Mahamsa: We cannot actually conceive of all these things.

Prabhupada: Yes. The conclusion is that Krsna being the reservoir of all pleasure, so the pleasure of fighting is there. So He can exhibit anywhere. [break] That is the understanding of Krsna. As soon as we limit Krsna like one of us, or little bigger than me, then I become doctor frog. (aside:) Don’t come near. Why don’t you tell them? [break]

Giriraja: “…Vasudeva attempted to take His son from the delivery room, and exactly at that time, a daughter was born of Nanda and Yasoda. She was Yogamaya, the internal potency of the Lord. By the influence of His internal potency, Yogamaya, all the residents of Kamsa’s palace, especially the doorkeepers, were overwhelmed with deep sleep and all the palace doors opened although they were barred and shackled with iron chains. The night was very dark, but as soon as Vasudeva took Krsna on His lap and went out, he could see everything just as in the sunlight.” [break]

Dr. Patel: (Hindi) …he worships like anything. Then he… We have an assembly, and they passed by majority vote that I should refrain from coming here, but I somehow or other came.

Prabhupada: But I saw and offer my obeisances to your motorcar. (laughter) I was thinking that “Dr. Patel’s representative, the car is here.”

Dr. Patel: (Hindi) Because we are trained to all the accredited saints of India, to whatever opinion…

Prabhupada: Our business is to point out who is not a saint.

Dr. Patel: But don’t point us out. We want the tree to be a saint.

Prabhupada: That is our business. Preacher must be. (Hindi) [break] …can I speak something? Because their position is to take Ramakrishna as a saintly person. Saintly person there may be. Just like Ravana. He also underwent severe penances, but just to fulfill his personal desire, or Ravana was so devotee of Lord Siva that he was cutting his head and offering to the Deity. Is it? You know, everyone?

Dr. Patel: Yes.

Prabhupada: So why he is called raksasa, not a saintly person? What is the reason?

Mahamsa: Because he was trying to en…

Prabhupada: I will talk. Why he is described in the sastra as raksasa? And not only that… I do not know whether here. In Delhi have seen Rama-lila, the effigy of Ravana is beaten with shoes sometimes. But actually he was a great devotee of Lord Siva. Everyone knows. And he was so big devotee that Lord Siva gave him all benedictions, “Whatever you want.” So why this Ravana is described in the sastra as raksasa? Why he is not described as a saintly person? He was a brahmana by birth. He was born of a brahmana father, and he was great student of Vedas. Materially he was very opulent so that he could control even the demigods. He was so powerful. Still, with all this qualification, why he is described as raksasa? You answer this point.

Indian man (2): Because he had some fight with… So kama, krodha, moha, lobha, he had that also… [break]

Prabhupada: He is not a devotee of the Lord. So anyone… That is our criterion. Anyone who is not a devotee, whatever he may be… He may be very, very big or so-called saintly, but according to the description of the sastras, na mam duskrtino mudhah prapadyante naradhamah [Bg. 7.15] We shall calculate in that way. As soon as we…

Indian man (3): He was devotee of Lord Siva. Otherwise why Lord Siva gives him whatever he wants?

Prabhupada: Lord Siva is Lord Siva. He is very powerful demigod. He can give. He has got the power. But in spite of being favored by Lord Siva, in spite of his becoming the great devotee of Lord Siva, why he is described as raksasa? That is the point. So therefore if I say Ravana a raksasa, according to the sastra, another devotee may be angry. So what can I do? It is stated in the sastra, raksasa. Similarly, in the sastra it is stated that na mam duskrtino mudhah prapadyante naradhamah: “If one is not surrendered to Krsna he is duskrtina, the most sinful, mudha, rascal, naradhama, lowest of the mankind, mayaya apahrta-jnana.” These things are there. But if we quote the sastra, that “This man has not surrendered to the Supreme Lord; therefore he is a rascal,” then what is wrong with us? It may be very strong words, but it is stated in the sastra. Just like about Ravana, it is stated that he is a raksasa. So it may be very insulting and strong words, but this is the statement of the sastra. And if one quotes from the sastra, what is wrong on his part? Suppose in the court a big man has done something criminal, and the judgement is that he should be punished. So can you accuse the court, “Oh, such a big man?” Just like… For the time being let us understand. Mahatma Gandhi was put to jail in so many times. So nobody could say because according to law there was civil disobedience. So if the law puts you in the jail, so can you protest against that? Then you will be also put into jail, contempt of court. Although everyone respects Mahatma Gandhi, but why he was put into jail? According to law. It may be it is man-made law, it is wrong, but the principle is that whatever is judgement of the sastra, we have to take. It doesn’t matter who is that man and how great he is. That is… Yah sastra-vidhim utsrjya vartate kama-karatah, na siddhim sa… The sastra is given stress always. So you cannot go beyond the verdict of the sastra. That is the injunction. [break] …about Guru Nanak’s statement that…

Indian man (4): Rama gao ravana gao.

Prabhupada: You just explain that.

Indian man (4): (Hindi) [break]

Prabhupada: As soon as he said that, he was killed immediately. That is the atheistic version. “I don’t care for God,” So as soon as he became atheistic, he was killed, and so long he was chanting, “Rama will kill me, Rama will kill me,” so he was not killed.

Indian man (4): He was a bhakta at that time according to the… [break]

Prabhupada: He was chanting the holy name of Rama.

Indian man (4): He was chanting Rama, Rama, Rama.

Prabhupada: Yes. [break] …yogino ’nante satyanande cid-atmani, iti rama-padenasau param brahma ity abhidhiyate. So so long one chants Rama Krsna, who can kill him? Yes. That is the point. [break] When he constructed bridge on the ocean, the stones were floating. Where is the law of gravitation go on? So He can do that. He withdrew the law of gravitation. [break] …position of the demons. Although he is not learned, he will give instruction.

Mahamsa: [break] …who is learned. [break]

Prabhupada: …business, that without being learned in the subject matter he wants to give instruction. [break]

Giriraja: “Sir, let us now make arrangements to kill all children who were born within the last ten days in towns, countries, villages and pasturing grounds.” [break]

Prabhupada: On this side there is government sign, “No dogs,” “No dogs.” Dogs are not allowed.

Indian man (4): What is the reason?

Prabhupada: Dogs are disturbing to the people. They can attack any man. If one takes dog, he must lash it, chain. That is the law there. [break]

Indian man (4): There is no idea also. When master is there, then he can control the dog.

Prabhupada: Oh, the master is… He may be master of the dog, but he is not master of the world.

Indian man (4): But that is how he did it.

Prabhupada: That is quite all right, but after all, it is dog. After all, it is dog.

Indian man (4): And the law also is that it should be chained. [break]

Prabhupada: …sometimes dog attacks the master. Not only dog, animals. [break] …the bitterest enemies of the demons, always. That is the position. Visnu-bhakto bhaved daiva asuras tad-viparyayah. So demigods, they are devotees of Visnu, and they are always enemies unto the demons. [break] …especially in the heart of the saintly person, to kill the saintly person. So Krsna also will be killed. Because Krsna is in everyone’s heart, therefore everyone is Krsna. The same conclusion.

Mahamsa: That does not show any logic, because He is in everybody’s heart, how can anyone be Krsna? [break]

Prabhupada: He is in the heart of a dog also. Then dog is also Krsna. So why one should go to the temple? He can worship his dog at home. If this logic is all right. [break] …the verdict of the Ramakrishna mission, “You can worship whatever you like. That is God.” And therefore they have manufactured this word, daridra-narayana. [break] Jata-karma-samskara, samskarad bhaved dvijah. Samskara, reformatory method, begins before the birth. Before the birth, when the father and mother have sex, that is called garbhadhana-samskara. That is also another ceremony. It is not a hidden fact. So samskarad bhaved dvijah. Otherwise it is birth like cats and dogs. That is Vedic civlization, samskara before the birth and immediately after the birth, then one after another. This is called jata-karma; then nama-karma; then when he is grown boy, upanayana-samskara, diksa-samskara; then when he is grown up and marriage… Marriage is also another samskara. In this way there are dasa-vidha-samskara. So unless one goes through all the samskaras, he is not accepted as higher caste. He is sudra. In a brahmana family, if the garbhadhana-samskara is not taken, so it is said that immediately the whole family becomes sudra, no more brahmanas. Then where is garbhadhana-samskara is going on? Nobody takes care of garbhadhana-samskara. Still, they are declaring that “I am brahmana.” Therefore the conclusion is kalau sudra-sambhavah: “Everyone is sudra.” [break] …no education. Still, one is called panditji. What is the meaning of this “panditji?” If he is not learned, then why do you call him panditji? (laughing) [break] That pandiya is also another form of pandita.

Indian man (4): (indistinct)

Prabhupada: Yes. From pandiya, pandiya. From panditya, from panditya, it comes pandiya.

Indian man (4): He is not a pandita. He is a pukka businessman.

Prabhupada: Mean, I say this is going on. But sastra says if one is engaged in a particular type of occupation, he should be called that. Yasya hi yal-laksanam proktam varnabhivyan-jakam. To designate into certain type of varna, there are symptoms. That symptoms, yadi anyatra vidhisyeta, if it is found somewhere else, tat tenaiva vinirdiset [SB 7.11.35], one should ascertain by the symptoms. This is the sastric injunction.

Indian man (5): According to the work it is known.

Prabhupada: Yes. Even a man is born in the brahmana family, but if he is working as something else, so he should be… Practically also… Just like somebody is pandita, brahmana, but if he is doing the work of an engineer or doctor, he is addressed as “Doctor Saheb.” That is practical. “Doctor Saheb. Engineer Saheb.” Not “Panditji.”

Indian man (5): By birth he may be brahmana like that.

Prabhupada: Yes. No. By birth, there is no brahmana. By samskara. Samskarad bhaved dvijah. That is…

Indian man (4): Birthright is not brahmana. No birthright.

Prabhupada: No, no.

Indian man (4): Provided he has got the particular samskara. (Hindi) That is the beginning of it.

Prabhupada: Ah, that is the beginning of samskara. There is regular ceremony.

Indian man (5): But a very few people nowadays…

Prabhupada: Still in Bengal, when the husband meets first the wife, there is samskara. There is regular puja, patha. Then the husband and wife meet together. We had the same samskara in our family. It was going on. When we were young man, it was going on.

Indian man (4): Semen ceremony.

Indian man (6): Semen means before the birth.

Indian man (5): After pregnancy, eight or nine months, something like that.

Prabhupada: That is sad-laksana. That is another thing. Before sex, there is a ceremony. That is called garbhadhana. [break]

Sridhara: “…ceremony takes place after the birth of the child. The family members take baths, cleanse themselves, and decorate themselves with ornaments and garlands. Then they come before the child and the astrologer to hear the future life of the child. Nanda Maharaja and other members of the family dressed and sat down in front of the birthplace. All the brahmanas who were assembled there on this occasion chanted auspicious mantras.” [break]

Prabhupada: [break] …Maharaja. This is ksatriya king. Who has got so many cows to distribute? They cannot maintain even one cow. He is handed it over to the slaughterhouse. This is our position.

Sridhara: “He not only gave cows in charity, but hills of grain, decorated with golden bordered garments and many ornaments.”

Prabhupada: Anna-vastra, anna-vastra-dhana. Charity means to give in charity anna and vastra and cows. [break] …give in charity some paper, one hundred rupees. (laughs) Another cheating. And he is also satisfied, “One hundred rupees.” What is this one hundred? It is a paper, a piece of paper. [break] …earned, black market, white market. Because when one does business, he has to do it, but it should be purified. I have seen the Marwaris, they do that. Although when earning money, they don’t care, they do anything, but they give in charity. [break] …purify the body by taking bath, similarly, the wealth is purified by the charity process, giving it to the brahmanas and Vaisnavas. Just like Rupa Gosvami. He accumulated much wealth. He brought in a big boat, all gold coins. So… So he distributed fifty percent to the brahmana and Vaisnava and twenty- five percent he gave to the relatives, and twenty-five percent he kept for his personal emergency. This is example shown by Rupa Gosvami. [break] Krsi-go-raksya-vanijyam vaisya-karma svabhava-jam [Bg. 18.44] So where is that vaisya, giving protection to the cows? Although they were village men, they were very rich. That is the old Vedic civilization. Now you go to the village—all poor. The cows are skinny, people have no home, no nice cloth. This is the position. And we are still advanced, advanced. They are proud of “advanced.” And here is the… Just hear the description of the village, with cows only. So how much fallen we have become, we can just imagine.

Devotee: Prabhupada, in New Delhi the government has banned the use of milk in the sweet shops and there is no more cheese or any milk products.

Prabhupada: Yes. And there will be no more. These things will vanish. That is stated in the… Rice, wheat, milk, sugar and fruits, they will be no more available. You have to eat meat. That day is coming. But before that day comes, you go back to home, back to Godhead.

Devotees: Jaya!

Prabhupada: That is Krsna consciousness movement. You simply try to understand Krsna and everything is finished, all this nonsense place, full of demons.

Sridhara: “They possessed such an abundance of various kinds of milk products that they were throwing butter lavishly on each other’s body without restriction.”

Prabhupada: Just see how rich they were.

Indian man: So much butter and all these things.

Prabhupada: Yes. Throwing butter like anything. Yes.

Indian man: Now we can see also.

Prabhupada: Just see.

Sridhara: “Their wealth was in milk, yogurt, clarified butter and many other milk products. And by trading their agricultural products, they were rich in various kinds of jewelry, ornaments and costly dresses.” [break]

Prabhupada: …even the richest man, their wife has no bangles. You see? And they are jewelries. Jewelries. Cow, butter, throwing butter like anything, and silk sari and enough food grains. What is more want for material advancement? That is real material ad… You have got everything, material needs. [break] If a man can feed his wife and children, then he is successful. There is no question of charity. There is no question of charity. But here it is said they were also giving in charity. [break] …stopped to become real brahmana and give instruction to the society, and they also stopped giving charity to the brahmanas. So therefore the society is so fallen. There is no instruction from the brahmanas and no charity from the ksatriya and vaisya. [break] …prosita bhartrka. By the dress a woman is recognized. When she does not dress very nicely, it is to be understood that her husband is out of home. When there is the vermillion, that means she is married. When the, what is called, division? Siti. Siti is in this side, then she is prostitute. The dress, when the woman dresses with white dress, they are widow, no husband. Yes, in this way by dress…

Indian man: Yes. You can recognize here. But now they are changed completely.

Prabhupada: Yes. When the girl has no this covering, that means she is virgin. She is not married. In this way all the signs are there. This is prosita bhartrka. Prosita-bhartrka means one whose husband is not at home, outside. Then she will not dress, she will not take regular bath, so that people may know that her husband is not at home.

Sridhara: She won’t take bath?

Prabhupada: Not, take bath not with any oil. Yes. Means she wanted to avoid very good looking. Yes, that is the idea.

Sridhara: “But although Rohini’s husband was away, she still dressed herself on this occasion.”

Prabhupada: [break] …deliver each and every child to Kamsa, but in the case of Krsna he did not do so. He did not deliver. He cheated him by changing. So to give protection to Krsna, they had to do something, even it is not sanctioned. He violated because he promised before Kamsa that “I shall deliver all the children,” and he did it. But when there was Krsna, he broke the promise.

Sridhara: “Vasudeva continued, ‘My dear friend it is very difficult…’ ”

Prabhupada: Therefore Vasudeva is very jubilant that Krsna is now alive and His birthday ceremony has been performed. Therefore he is so pleased.

Sridhara: “Vasudeva continued, ‘My dear friend, it is very difficult for us to live together.’ ” [break]

Prabhupada: …cows were getting grass also. Water. But you will find there is no water, there is no grass in the field. And the government is sending the cows to the slaughterhouse. This is the condition of present India. In Europe, America, although they are selling the cows to the slaughterhouse, they have got enough grass and water. That I have seen. At least so long they live, the cows are comfortably maintained. But here there is no comfort for the cows. Now here the anxiety is whether the cows are getting sufficient grass and water.

Makhanlal: What’s the explanation then? They are slaughtering more cows in the United States, but there is still more fortunate situation there materially.

Prabhupada: No, that is now dwindling. The hippies are coming out. So one day it will be finished. One day it will be finished. That… It has already begun. The future hope is now becoming hippies. So who will manage this? It is already there is a problem how to maintain the industry, how to… This has become a problem. So naturally, when the, there will be all hippies, not to work, then everything collapses. The so-called prosperity will be finished. [break] Nobody is working sincerely. Here also in India, all government servants, they do not work. The manager of the government coal company said that “The workers in the mine, they are not working. Therefore we have to increase the price.” So now, everything dependent on one another, so if one side there is noncooperation, the whole thing will collapse. [break] …college they don’t work. One thing is that draft board chasing all young men. (end)