Room Conversation
with German Women Philosophers
His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada
June 17, 1974, Germany

Prthu: …that we all, when we are in material life, we have so many duties, so many works, so many things to do, but then, when she’s dead, she wants peace for herself. She wants to be… She has this peaceful situation, wants to be situated in that.

Prabhupada: After death.

Prthu: Yes.

Prabhupada: So everyone will get that peace? (German)

Prthu: She thinks that everyone will get after death this peace.

Prabhupada: The cats and dogs, everyone? The same? (German)

Prthu: [break] …different from cats and dogs in as much as he has something spiritual in himself, and she says if this spiritual is more emotions and so on.

Prabhupada: So what is that difference? (German)

Prthu: Cats and dogs are animals, and they don’t have, animals, they don’t have any spiritual life. They live more after instincts.

Prabhupada: So if the man and animal is working for the same purpose… Just like man is eating, and the animal is also eating. A man is sleeping, and the animal is also sleeping. The man is also having sexual intercourse, and the animal also doing that. And man is also fearful of his enemy, and the animal also fearful of enemies. So if the platform of activities are the same, why the difference is there? [break]

Prthu: She says that the difference is that the men does all these activities with his mind and…

Prabhupada: But the activity is the same, eating. Where is the difference between these activities or that activities? (German)

Prthu: So she said that the animals are doing their eating process through the roots, and the men, or the animals, she says, they do it instinct, like before, and the man does it with a spirit soul, this. She says that…

Prabhupada: No, no. I think the… When a man eats and the animal eats, either it is done by instinct or by intelligence, but where is the difference? (German) [break]

Prthu: So her point is that man was former primitive, but he has developed by his intelligence, this advanced civilization, this, all this kinds of stuff, but the, but the bird or the animal, for instance, he was former primitive, and he is now primitive. So she says that is the evidence that man has some mind or intelligence.

Prabhupada: Because he can build nice building, therefore he has got some intelligence.

Prthu: Yes.

Prabhupada: But the effect of building, that he builds according to his instinct, and you construct according to your intelligence, but the sleeping comfort is the same. (German) [break] …such a nice building, and his enemy throws bomb on it. But the dogs, they do not do that. So who is advanced, the dog or the man? (German)

Prthu: Yes she admits that the man by his intelligence, he makes something up which destroys ultimately. But the dog doesn’t do, she says.

Prabhupada: No, no. The dog has no greater intelligence. Therefore he sleeps under some bush very comfortably. But man has made very nice building, and another man destroys it by bombing. So the dog’s intelligence is better or the man’s intelligence is better? (German) [break]

Prthu: So she says that the man, by his intelligence, will go on, go on inventing some things which will destroy, and…

Prabhupada: So is that very good intelligence? (German)

Prthu: So she says that this intelligence is actually not good. She says this intelligence…

Prabhupada: Then what is the use of getting better intelligence than the dog? (German) [break]

Hamsaduta: …like to have more, Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: No.

Prthu: She thinks that she doesn’t want to answer to your point. She says that the man has got his intelligence by God, but he misuses his intelligence.

Prabhupada: But God has given intelligence for this bad work? (German)

Prthu: She says that God has not given this intelligence for this bad work, but that is due to the faulty mankind.

Prabhupada: Therefore misuse of intelligence will cause his suffering. Now suppose a tiger kills an animal, and a man kills thousands of animals in a day in the slaughterhouse. Is he not sinful? (German)

Prthu: She says that this is the evil in mankind.

Prabhupada: Therefore the conclusion is that the so-called intelligent man is simply misusing his intelligence. So when he misuses his intelligence he is less than the cats and dogs. Yes. (German) And then, after death, how he’ll be in peace? (German) [break]

Prthu: She says that every man will get this peace, also the bad men.

Prabhupada: Bad men also will get peace? (German)

Prthu: Yes.

Prabhupada: This is nonsense. (laughter) Just see. How nonsense philosophers they are! (German)

Prthu: She says that this is their… She’s also on your side. She says that this would not be right if the bad men were to get the same thing as the good men.

Prabhupada: She said the bad man also will get peace. (laughs) (German)

Prthu: So this lady’s point is: where shall the bad man go after death?

Prabhupada: He’ll become a dog. (German)

Prthu: She says that this would mean that there is a hell. But she doesn’t believe in hell.

Prabhupada: He may not believe, but hell is there. If… You read this book. Urdhvam gacchanti sattva-sthah. Read this verse. Just see how misbelief, that there is no hell. Just see. In this way, misled, whole world. The so-called rascal leaders mislead, “There is no hell. Don’t believe in hell.” Vivekananda said, “Yes. There is no hell.” Urdhvam gacchanti sattva-sthah.

Prthu: What is it?

Prabhupada: Urdhvam. And she is a philosopher? (German)

Prthu: She says she is a primitive, simple man.

Prabhupada: But still not willing to go to hell. (German) You found?

Satsvarupa: Yes.

Prabhupada: Read it.

Satsvarupa: Urdhvam gacchanti sattva-sthah…

Prabhupada: Sattva-sthah.

Satsvarupa:

(urdhvam gacchanti) sattva-stha madhye tisthanti rajasah jaghanya-guna-vrtti-stha adho gacchanti tamasah [Bg. 14.18]

“Those situated in the mode of goodness gradually go upward to the higher planets. Those in the mode of passion live on the earthly planets, and those in the mode of ignorance go down to the hellish worlds.”

Prabhupada: Just… Translator.

Satsvarupa: Pg. 666… Well, it’s fourteen-eighteen. (German)

Prthu: [break] …where these hellish worlds are? She asks you where these hellish worlds are?

Prabhupada: They’re, they are different planets. (German)

Prthu: She wants to know how we know this.

Prabhupada: From the books. (German) [break]

Prthu: So she feels… It seems that she feels a little bit attacked by this hellish worlds. So now she says that Jesus has come to save men and not to, to destroy them. So he says Jesus even came to the robbers and with a purpose to save them.

Prabhupada: Well, but provided the follower abides by the order of Jesus. Jesus can save them if the man follows the Jesus order. (German) [break]

Prthu: …say?

Prabhupada: Jesus has given some instruction or not? (German)

Prthu: So he says that Jesus has given some directions and this is that we should love our brother in the same way as we love ourselves and that we should not do any harm to anyone.

Prabhupada: But Jesus has said also those who are sinful, they’ll go to hell? Is it not? Satsvarupa?

Satsvarupa: I can’t think of any quote, but of course, that’s the teachings of God the father.

Prabhupada: Yes. (German)

Prthu: Yes, yes, she says that there is something like eternal condemn in the Christian teachings, like Jesus said.

Prabhupada: Eternally hellish life.

Prthu: Yes.

Prabhupada: So then why she says that everyone will go, peace? (German) [break]

Prthu: She makes no… She said that if she could listen to Jesus, what he said, formerly, then she would know, but she says actually one cannot believe it so much because can anyone believe that he has made the dead Lazarus… This was a person who already died, and Jesus came and gave him life back. So she says nobody can believe that, that Jesus has made this dead Lazarus…

Prabhupada: I don’t follow. What is that?

Satsvarupa: She, from what he says, she does not actually believe in Jesus.

Prabhupada: Who?

Satsvarupa: This lady. She says that who can be sure of what Jesus actually did because he was…

Prabhupada: Then why, why she quotes Jesus? If she does not believe in Jesus, why she’s giving evidence from Jesus? (German) [break]

Prthu: She says like if she makes a comparison like if today there is a car crash, then all the people will say something different and the information will differ from the original car crash. So she says, in the same way, what Jesus did and said is now twisted around so nobody can actually give…

Prabhupada: That means everyone has rejected Jesus. (German) [break]

Prthu: …that what Jesus said, this is all right, but what is now made of it, this one shouldn’t take wordly.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Prthu: She says what Jesus said is all right, but what is now existing from that, one should not take wordly.

Hamsaduta: Literally.

Prabhupada: Hm? I do not follow.

Hamsaduta: That which has been written down about his activities or his speaking cannot be accepted literally because who knows.

Prabhupada: Then why do you quote? (German) [break]

Prthu: So she makes a difference what is true and what is not true.

Prabhupada: But if you, if you cannot follow Bible literally, then where is the truth? (German) [break] …new truth. (German)

Prthu: So she speaks of a fashion today, that there’s a fashion going on, and she says this fashion is all right, and this fashion is that one takes all the miracles and all the mythological things out of the Bible, and one causes…

Prabhupada: So there is no truth. It is all hodge-podge. (German)

Prthu: Yeah, so she agrees on your point that everyone takes what he likes, and that she says is what…

Prabhupada: So it is a hodge-podge. (German)

Prthu: So she again says that she cannot accept the points of the Bible where there is mention of miracles.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Prthu: She again says that one cannot accept the portions of the Bible where there are statements…

Prabhupada: Now, once she said that those things cannot be taken now literally.

Prthu: Yeah.

Prabhupada: Then what is the use of taking Bible? (German) [break]

Prthu: …that one always has to take the truth from the untruth, also in Bible.

Prabhupada: This is nonsense. From untruth, how there can be truth? (end)