Morning Walk Conversation
with His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada
October 28, 1975, Nairobi

Pusta Krsna: Slaughterhouse or no slaughterhouse… They take anything as being good, the governments.

Prabhupada: Because government “by the people.”

Brahmananda: By the fools and rascals.

Prabhupada: Yes. “Government for the people, by the people.”

Pusta Krsna: Democracy idea.

Prabhupada: Yes. This is democracy.

Brahmananda: Usually their philosophy is that anyone has the liberty to do whatever he likes as long as it doesn’t hurt another, as long as it doesn’t infringe on another’s liberty.

Prabhupada: Then how you are killing the animals? [break] …eat meat, therefore you are killing poor animals. Why you are interfering others’ life? [break] …the best park here. [break] Here there is no such park.

Brahmananda: Really?

Prabhupada: Nice park. [break]

Cyavana: …agricultural.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. All opulent.

Cyavana: Yes. All fruits…

Prabhupada: Yes.

Cyavana: …and flowers.

Jnana: Srila Prabhupada, in Kenya the great majority of people live in the country rather than the towns.

Prabhupada: That’s nice. “Country is made of God, and city is made by man.” That is the remark by poet Cowper.

Jnana: How may we best expand our movement into the rural areas or into the country areas?

Prabhupada: So, Brahmananda, explain our scheme.

Harikesa: Explain our scheme.

Cyavana: About the rural development village program.

Brahmananda: Of making the men self-sufficient in cloth, foodstuffs, milk products, grains.

Cyavana: There’s a map. [break]

Jnana: …program like the Christians.

Prabhupada: Explain how to… Explain.

Brahmananda: Of having a… Encouraging the people to…, first by having kirtana and prasadam. [break]

Prabhupada: This is the process. Some how or other, they should join, “Hare Krsna, Hare…” Then everything… It is not very difficult. Simply induce them to chant. That will make everything success.

Jnana: We have been spending some time in a small town.

Prabhupada: Anywhere, hell or heaven, it doesn’t matter. You induce people to chant. This is the sum and substance of devotee. It doesn’t matter whether it is town, city, village. Wherever you go, you gather people and induce them by flattering them, by falling their, on their leg—some way or other, induce them. Dante nidhaya trnakam padayor nipatya. This is the process shown by Prabodhananda Sarasvati, that “My dear sir, I have come to you with great humbleness, taking a straw in my mouth.” Dante nidhaya trnakam padayor nipatya: “And falling down on your lotus feet.” Kaku-satam krtva: “And I am trying to please you by so many flattering words.” Krtva aham bravimi: “I have got some submission, if you’ll kindly hear.” So who is that man who will deny? If you fall down on his feet and take a straw and very humbly you pray, “Sir, I have got something to say if you kindly hear,” who will deny? Who is that man? Even rogues, rascals, he’ll also agree: “Yes, you can say what you want to do.” This is the process. Dante nidhaya trnakam padayor nipatya kaku-satam krtva ca aham bravimi. “I want to submit. Will you kindly hear?” So any rogue, rascal, gentleman, big, small, learned—everyone will agree. Is it not, if you submit like that, that with great humbleness and flattering him, “Falling down on your feet, I want to submit something”? Huh? What do you think?

Jnana: I think it’s wonderful. Yes.

Prabhupada: This is the… This is the process. So this is the process. So now, when he will say, “All right, you can say what you want to say,” then, he sadhava: “You are a great personality, nobleman.” He may be a loafer class, (laughter) but give him all honor: “You are so great and so exalted,” he sadhava, “and so honest.” He sadhava. “My only submission is that whatever you have learned, you forget. Whatever nonsense you have learned…” Don’t say “nonsense.” (laughter) But we must know that he is a pakka, rascal, nonsense. (laughs) So don’t say directly, “nonsense.” Say, “You are the great personality. So kindly, whatever you have learned, forget.” “Then what shall I do?” He sadhavah sakalam eva vihaya durat: “Kick out whatever you nonsense learned.” “Then what shall I do?” Now, caitanya-candra-carane kurutanuragam: “Kindly be submissive to Lord Caitanya, and chant Hare Krsna.” This is our program. No argument. Because he is a rascal, what is the use of arguing with him? He’s a rascal number one. You know that. You cannot expect any good argument from the rascals and fools. Where is the logic? Their logic is to beat them with shoes. That is the only logic. But that, if you do that, then you’ll not be able to preach. But otherwise that is the only logic, to beat them with shoes. Argumentum vaculum. You know this logic? In logic we have read. There is one logic, argumentum… You know this?

Cyavana: That is Latin.

Girl devotee (1): Yes. Yes.

Prabhupada: Yes. You know? What is that? Argumentum vaculum? Hm? With fools and rascals, with animals, there is no logic. Take the stick and beat them. The dog, if he is a dog, what is the argument with him? Take the stick and beat him; then he will go away. That is called argumentum baculum. That is, Sanskrit logic, also said, murkhasya latau sadhi (?) “One who is a fool, his only remedy is beating him with stick.” This is material. But we are not doing anything material. It is all spiritual. Therefore, especially in this age, Caitanya Mahaprabhu,

trnad api sunicena taror api sahisnuna amanina manadena kirtaniyah (sada harih) [Cc. adi 17.31]

So we should preach like this, any rascal, because anyone who has no information of Krsna, who is not Krsna conscious, he’s a rascal. That’s all. That we must know. That is definite. There is no mistaking it. But if you say that “You are rascal. There is no mistaking it,” then you cannot preach. If you directly call a rascal a rascal, he’ll be angry. Murkhayopadeso hi prakopaya na santa…: To give good instruction to a fool rascal will increase his anger, that’s all.” Then you’ll not be able to preach. So you have to become very humble, trnad api sunicena, humbler than the grass. Just like everyone is trampling over the grass. It doesn’t protest, “Why you are going, keeping your leg on my head?” But that is the… Trnad api sunicena. Go on trampling. Hundreds’ and hundreds’ people are trampling over the grass; they don’t protest. Trnad api sunicena taror api sahisnuna. The tree is standing. You sit down. When there is scorching heat, you take pleasure by sitting down under the shade. But the reward is that you cut the branches. That is their reward. He gives you shelter, and you cut the branch. You cut the whole tree. This is your gratefulness. You see? Because we are rascals, we do not know what is gratefulness. They are taking milk from the cow and killing. This is our proposal. So Caitanya Mahaprabhu advises, taror api sahisnuna—tolerant, humbler than the grass. Amanina manadena. Don’t expect any honor for your person, but to the others give honor: “Oh, you are most exalted person,” although he’s a rascal. What can be done? Otherwise you cannot preach. If you call a rascal a rascal, immediately your preaching will be stopped. So you have to say that “You are the greatest intelligent man, sadhu, most honored. The only request is that you forget what you have learned. That’s all. And take this.” In this way preaching practical. Otherwise it is not possible. Everyone is thinking he is the most exalted personality, scientist, philosopher, great man. That is material disease. Actually he is being kicked every moment by the urges of the senses, and he is thinking he is very great man. Go-dasa. Go means senses. He is always, I mean, curbed down by the sense urges, and he is thinking, “independent.” Independent means servant of the senses. This is going on. So you have to understand the real position of the world, and if you want to preach, then you have to (be) humbler than the tree, humbler than the grass, tolerant than the tree and… We know everyone is rascal; still, you have to give him honor. Then it will be possible to say something. Otherwise it is very difficult. We have to deal with all rascals, fools, rogues, ruffians, all good qualificat…, like. This is… You must know these things. You are dealing with all rascals. So if we call them directly “rascal,” they will be angry. Your preaching will not be successful. So follow the principles enunciated by Prabodhananda Sarasvati and Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

Jnana: When they ask us about Lord Caitanya, “Who is this Lord Caitanya?” what may we tell them?

Prabhupada: “Yes, you’ll understand. Please kindly chant Hare Krsna now. You’ll understand.” When we say, “Follow the instruction of Caitanya,” means chant Hare Krsna. What Caitanya said? Caitanya said, kirtaniyah sada harih: [Cc. adi 17.31] “Always chant Hare Krsna.” That’s all. So you’ll know Caitanya, what He is, later on. For the time being, Caitanya says that you chant Hare Krsna. You do it, and then you will be able very easily. At the present moment, simply if you want to know—I explain Caitanya—it will be not possible for you. Better chant. Take His instruction. Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna… Where they are going? To work?

Girl devotee (1): Yes.

Prabhupada: What is the time for their joining?

Indian man (2): Between six-thirty and seven o’clock.

Prabhupada: And how long they’ll work?

Indian man (2): They will work up to twelve, one o’clock. Then they go home. Then they come back again at four o’clock and…

Prabhupada: That is Indian. In India also the servant like that. Then remains up to nine o’clock.

Indian man (2): But those who are far away, they go at six o’clock. [break]

Jnana: But if the devotees, if they go and live in small groups amongst the people, for example, in the country instead of just in big city temples, then we can influence more people, get more people chanting Hare Krsna.

Prabhupada: Yes. Good idea. But whether you will be able to live? Better go from the city to the interior, come back.

Cyavana: To remain there for long is difficult.

Jnana: It’s difficult.

Cyavana: Yes. We’ve had experience.

Prabhupada: You go, just in Europe, America, they are going in buses in interior, and they’re preaching then coming back.

Jnana: So this should be our program.

Prabhupada: (softly)

Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare

[break]

Indian lady (3): …go house to house or at the time of their function there are ladies gathering there.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Indian lady (3): When the ladies are gathering their own function, just like…

Prabhupada: What function?

Indian lady (3): On Mangalbara they and… Here usually they do like that.

Prabhupada: Let them come.

Brahmananda: Let them come to our function rather than going to their function.

Prabhupada: Their function means recreation. That is not function. By that function they’ll… But it is… Something is better than nothing. That is another thing. Arto ’rtharthi jijnasur jnani—four kinds of men, they take to Krsna consciousness movement, the arto ’rtharthi. Artah means distressed, and artharthi means those who are in need of money. So they are arto ’rtharthi, and better than the rogues and ruffians, but their Krsna consciousness, chanting Krsna, means they want to get some money and to get out of some distress. That is ninety-nine percent people. And some of them are jnani. They want to learn about Krsna very seriously, not to fulfill their material desires. They are called jnani. Jnani and jijnasu, inquisitive. So in jnani, those who are after knowledge, and inquisitive, they are better than this arta and artharthi. But devotee is transcendental to all of them. They are neither arto, not distressed, nor in need of money. They do not want to speculate for knowledge or… They know, “Krsna is the Supreme, and if I am part and parcel of the Supreme, it is my duty to serve Him to My best capacity.” That is real bhakti. And those who are trying to exploit Krsna for their, some material fulfillment of desire, they are not on the platform of bhakta. They are pious, not bhakta. A bhakta is above piety. Bhakta’s position is sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170] He is cent percent pure, without any mat… These are all material things. But beginning is all right. If you go to the fire, some way or other you will get the heat. So either be arta, artharthi, jnani, jijnasu, if you somehow or other, you have come to Krsna, it is good for you. There are many private functions like that you said?

Indian lady (3): Yes. Here always, twice in a week.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Indian lady (3): Here always there will be function twice in a week.

Prabhupada: Oh, twice in a week. So which are the days?

Indian lady (3): Usually they keep on Tuesday and Friday.

Brahmananda: There are many, the ladies’ satsang mandalas and…

Prabhupada: Ladies, not lords. (laughter)

Indian lady (3): No. Yes, only ladies

Prabhupada: They are better. It doesn’t matter ladies or lord. Anyone who is Krsna conscious is good. Striyo sudras tatha vaisyas te ’pi yanti param. It doesn’t matter whether woman, sudra or vaisya. If he is… If she is or he is Krsna conscious, he can go back to home, back to Godhead. Krsna is open to everyone.

Lilavati: Srila Prabhupada? We were thinking that unless the African people can see an example of a devotee, they won’t continuously chant. They will chant while we are there and then they will forget.

Prabhupada: Why don’t you become an example yourself?

Lilavati: So to live amongst them, we were thinking, is very important.

Prabhupada: You become an example by your behavior. Example is better than precept. [break]

Jnana: …to attain the necessary finances to support the programs here.

Prabhupada: Beg. Sell book. That’s all. Otherwise how you get finance?

Jnana: One idea is to have a farm that we sell fruit or vegetables, like that.

Prabhupada: If you open farm for financial help, then it will not be successful. You should take to farming for supporting yourself. That’s all. Grow your own food. Grow your own cloth. There is no need of financial help from outside. You get your food grains sufficiently, rice, dahl, wheat, vegetables, milk, sugar. Bas You get everything. From these five, six items you should be economically free. That you have to do, not for trade to get money. Then it will be failure.

Indian lady (3): Can we purchase the house for our own staying?

Prabhupada: Yes. Because this is necessary. You must have some shelter; you must eat; you must cover. That is necessary. So you do it. Grow food first of all to feed yourself sumptuously. You must get strength, and that is needed. But not for trade. The policy should be that you should be self-sufficient and save time for advancing in Krsna consciousness. That is wanted. Yavad-artha prayojanam. Yuktahara-viharasya yogo bhavati siddhi-dah. You shall eat whatever you require for proper upkeep of the body, not eating too much and sleeping whole day. Don’t do that. Eat only what is absolutely necessary. Then you’ll never be in want. People are engaged in material civilization means they are increasing the bodily demands, unnecessary. Just like this park. Why we have come to this park? We like this atmosphere. So similarly, in villages, everyone, if he has got some land, he can live simply without any gorgeous building. What is the use? Just have a cottage and have garden. You’ll live very peacefully. But they’re constructing big, big skyscraper building in the downtown, and they will have to come here by car for some peace of mind, and in the meantime, accident, police. This is the civilization, nonsense civilization. At weekend they will go to the village, country, and during the week-time they will work hard. This is their civilization, with the risk of life, running motor car eighty miles’ speed. Every moment there is risk. What is this civilization? Most ludicrous civilization. So farming means if you live in a farm… Just like in New Vrindaban they are doing. Produce your own food, live peacefully, fresh vegetable, fresh grains, fresh milk, and prepare so many nice milk preparation, kachori, halava with ghee. Offer to the Deity. Eat sufficiently. What is the use of going outside? Simple life and chant Hare Krsna. If you can organize that, that will be very nice.

Jnana: A nice program here.

Prabhupada: Yes. What is this rascal civilization, whole day “Where is money? Where is money? Where is money? Where is money? Where is money?” Everyone. Busy means “Where is money? Where is money?” Just like the hog, he is busy: “What time…? Where is stool? Where is stool? Where is stool? Where is stool? Where is stool?” That is not civilization. If you remain always busy, “Where is stool?” like the hog, then what is your civilization? Whole day working, night, nightshift, dayshift, whole day, the same, like hog.

Brahmananda: They hold more than one job. They have two jobs.

Prabhupada: Yes. Get money and then drink wine and eat meat and do all nonsense things. This is their civilization.

Jnana: A farm means also we may engage the people because they are not so…

Prabhupada: First of all be engaged yourself. Then they will see the example and they’ll join. Just like in our New Vrindaban. Other men from other farms, they are coming, and they are offered this milk preparation, burfi, sandesa, rasagulla, rabri, so many, halava. They become: “Oh, so many nice things can be prepared from milk?” They do not know, uncivilized. Cut the animal and eat. A most crude civilization. When people were not civilized, they used to do that. Civilization means you know, you must know how to live very nicely. That is civilization. But they do not know even that. Simply eating meat and wine, meat and wine, that’s all. And this is going on as civilization. They do not know what is the meaning of civilization. Na te viduh svartha-gatim hi visnum [SB 7.5.31]. Real civilization means to understand God. Here is God. Who’ll accept, either you say God or nature, that “You are under control. You are not free.”? That, this dog’s obstinacy, they will not take it. Like a dog. What is the meaning of dog obstinacy? He’ll go on disturbing, ”Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow!” This is dog consciousness. How they can refuse, that “There is no authority”? They say, “No, we don’t care for authority. Don’t.” But you are being kicked every moment: still, there is no authority? Just see obstinacy. Why you are becoming old? Every moment you are being kicked. You cannot remain young. You are trying to remain young with pomade, with some color, with some this, tea, wig, and… But you cannot, rascal. You cannot. You must become old. And still, he is thinking that he’ll be able to remain young. This is called dog’s obstinacy. He has got experience that nobody can remain young. I’ll also not remain young also, although I want it, “Yes, if I can remain young, that is good facility.” That he knows, but he won’t find the way how he can remain… Nityah sasvato ’yam na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg. 2.20]. Nitya. That path he will not take. Krsna says, “Here is the way.” Nityah sasvato ’yam na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg. 2.20]. Advaitam acyutam anadim ananta-rupam adyam purana-purusam nava-yauvanam [Bs. 5.33]. Krsna, the oldest man, oldest living being, but nava-yauvana, always fresh, young… You can get that position. You can play also, play Krsna. But that path they will not take. Krsna, ever-existingly young man, He is displaying in Vrndavana and inviting, “You can also come and join and live like this.” “No. That’s all. It is all fictitious. There was no Krsna. There is no such thing.” Immediately dismiss judgment. And by pomade, by injection, by, what is called? Hormone? All these rascals, they are trying to be young. Just see. You are doctor. Can you make young men with this…

Indian lady (3): Temporary they give hormone.

Prabhupada: What is this temporary? Temporary means…

Indian lady (3): Temporary they get to be God.

Prabhupada: One Marwari man, very rich man, he eighty years old, he wanted to change the hormones to remain…

Indian lady (3): Yes. That was in Indore.

Prabhupada: Indore, yes.

Indian lady (3): Kukumcha.

Prabhupada: Kukumcha. Yes, you know.

Indian lady (3): He got the glands from the monkey.

Prabhupada: Just see. But where is now Kukumcha?

Indian lady (3): Now he is no more.

Prabhupada: So Kukum, finished. (laughter) Kukum means order. So he thought… Kukum means order.

Indian lady (3): He was very rich. He used to…

Prabhupada: I know that. In Calcutta, Kukumcha. This firm was very big. One of the richest Marwari. So eighty years old, he wanted to change the hormone to become young. Not only… There are many Marwaris. You know the (name witheld)? (name witheld)? His elder brother, (name witheld). His only business is to keep one wife and have a big establishment. He has got four, five wives—one Bengali, one U.P., one Marwari, one this—and each wife’s establishment not less than ten thousand per month. And his business is morning to this wife and evening to this wife and noon to this wife, this wife. And he is old man. The wives do not care for him, and she is doing everything whatever, with the secretary. That’s all. It is going on. I have seen. I was guest in his home, and this rascal is doing this. He is earning money, black market, white market, this mar… At any cost, and spending like this. That’s all. There are many persons. Oh, in Europe also, the same thing. In Paris very, very old men, seventy- five years old, eighty years, they go to the night club. Entrance fee fifty dollar, then pay for the woman, wine. Spend few hours and spend two hundred, three hundred, five hundred dollars—go home. Then tranquilizer pill and sleep. This is going on. Therefore mudha.

Harikesa: They’ve found with this monkey gland operation also that you become like a monkey after a while, that you develop lots of hair and jaw becomes prominent.

Prabhupada: Accha?

Harikesa: Yes. They’ve found that.

Prabhupada: Why don’t you try for it? (laughter) You are supporter of Darwin’s theory. (laughter)

Harikesa: They may find them swinging through the trees.

Prabhupada: Jump over from tree to tree. I have seen here. There is…

Brahmananda: Yes.

Cyavana: In this area there are monkeys.

Prabhupada: Very… and they are also chased by another bird, monkey-eating bird. They’ll go and capture and take him and throw him in the ground, and he falls down and dies. Then the bird eats. You know the monkey-eating birds? I have seen in Los Angeles zoo. Not very big, but they want to eat monkeys.

Harikesa: Oh, the monkey-eating birds in Los… Yes.

Prabhupada: So for eating, sleeping, mating and defending, everyone has got full intelligence. This monkey-eating bird also knows how to do his job. So that is not intelligence. Even this lowest-class bird, they… Even small flies, they also know all tricks how to exist, struggle for existence.

Harikesa: Once in Vrndavana you were sitting in your room, and I had some bananas on the right-hand side. Do you remember this?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Harikesa: The monkey opened the door while we were all sitting there, stole the bananas, and raced out again.

Prabhupada: Yes. Many times, many times. When I was in Radha- Damodara temple I was eating, and they will open the door and take my food. And who is going to struggle with him? Whole bunch of chapatis. Even raw dough taken away.

Harikesa: We were once walking in the road right in front of Radha- Damodara temple holding some prasadam, and the monkey came from a tree and knocked down…

Prabhupada: Yes.

Harikesa: …the devotee and stole the prasadam and ran away.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Jnana: I heard they take the devotees’ tape recorders and trade them for bananas in the market. I heard.

Prabhupada: They are intelligent.

Indian lady (3): They want to get purified by getting prasadam from…

Prabhupada: No, no, that is not… (laughter) “Some devotees come here to become purified”—no. “Where is tape recorder? Where is camera?” They find out and take it away. We have got experience. What is this bird chirping?

Cyavana: There are many varieties here.

Prabhupada: In Bengal there is bird. Bengali is also. Every village is a garden like this, and these birds live in such nice garden. Bengal, it is now deserted. Otherwise wherever you go, it is garden. You have seen pukka?

Brahmananda: Oh, yes.

Prabhupada: When we go from Calcutta to Mayapur, simply garden. All banana trees, all coconut trees, mango trees, nice green field. But they cannot maintain. Formerly they were maintaining. All gentlemen used to live within the village, they used to take care. Now all gentlemen, they have left. They have gone to the city. Only poor men are there. They cannot maintain.

Brahmananda: We stopped one time at the home of that minister. He had his home on that road with big gardens.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Tarun.

Brahmananda: Tarun Kanti Ghosh. Lush gardens, big lake. That was the Bengal system. Big, big lakes, garden. Unless respectable rich men live in the village… Just like this. This is a nice garden because government is maintaining. So unless there are rich men, who will maintain? Poor men cannot maintain. It is cloudy today. But in…, climate is nice, very pleasant.

Jnana: From day to day it is changing.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Jnana: From day to day it is changing. Even this afternoon it may be very clear.

Prabhupada: This city park is very big.

Devotee (4): It goes in that direction.

Prabhupada: We shall go now?

Brahmananda: Yes, Prabhupada. [break]

Cyavana: The soul is all-pervading, throughout the body.

Prabhupada: No, no. What he questions, you did not hear?

Cyavana: Are there many living entities within the body?

Prabhupada: Yes. You do not know that?

Cyavana: Yes. There are other living entities.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Cyavana: In the stomach…

Prabhupada: But you do not know that.

Jnana: I understood that.

Prabhupada: Then why you are asking? There’re so many worms in your intestine.

Jnana: For example, the cells in the body. Are they also…

Prabhupada: Whatever you say, there are many. Cells are not living entities. [break]

Cyavana: That’s the beginning. [break]

Prabhupada: …come gradually. But this particular body belongs to a particular living entity.

Jnana: Actually, my doubt was about the cells, whether they were living entities or… [break]

Prabhupada: Living entity quits this body, no other living entity will be able to…

Cyavana: Maintain.

Prabhupada: It belongs to the particular. That is the rascal philosophy of the rascal scientists. They say some chemical is missing. Why chemical missing? There are so many other living entities, how they are living? If the chemical is missing, how they are living? This is rascaldom. If you say when the body is dead, the chemical is missing, then why so many hundreds and thousands of microbes are coming? Huh? (Hindi) Therefore I say rascals. (end)