Morning Walk Conversation Dr. Patel: (Hindi) Prabhupada: (Hindi) The experiment with truth (Hindi). What is the experiment with truth? (Hindi) Dr. Patel: You have taken that tablet for passing more urine? Prabhupada: Yes. Dr. Patel: Daily or…, yes or no. Prabhupada: I am passing (laughing). Dr. Patel: Yes, sir, but you have got the edema on the leg, and I mean, when… Prabhupada: It is cured. That one tablet, two tablets, has cured. So explain what is the experiment with truth. Dr. Patel: Now we must make. I have booked a visit at 7:15. Prabhupada: Hm? Dr. Patel: At 7:15 I have booked a visit. Prabhupada: So… Dr. Patel: Ha, tell me what is your… Prabhupada: No, what is this experiment with truth? Dr. Patel: About what? Prabhupada: Anything. The world. Dr. Patel: There are two types of experiments, sir, according to me. I may be wrong and I am open to correction. One experimentation with the crude world; another experiment with your own mind. Which type of experiment we want? Prabhupada: No, mind we reject immediately. Dr. Patel: How? Prabhupada: Because it is not truth. It is accepting, it is rejecting. Dr. Patel: Man sai eva (indistinct) Prabhupada: Mind’s business is to accept and reject. Therefore it is not truth. Dr. Patel: Only by mind and concentration of the mind you get the truth. Prabhupada: Concentration is different. Dr. Patel: But that is also of what? Of the mind. Prabhupada: The mind, when you concentrate the mind to the truth, then it is all right. Dr. Patel: That is what I say. By concentration of the mind you get the truth. That is the right. Prabhupada: Mind is not truth. Dr. Patel: Mind is not truth, but by mind we get at the truth. Prabhupada: Yes. We can direct our mind towards truth. Dr. Patel: I did not mean mind is truth. All that is made up of maya, all that is made up of, I mean, mahatsab(?) and down below, are all falsehood. Prabhupada: Therefore, experiment with truth is not experiment with the mind. So what is that truth, or what is that experiment? Dr. Patel: What is…. First of all, let us know what is mind by experiment. Prabhupada: Experiment means to examine whether it is truth or not. Dr. Patel: That examines, who examines and what? Who examines the mind, man’s mind? After all, no? And examination of anything depends upon the state of the mind, sir, according to the psychology. More concentrated the mind, better it will be nearer the truth. Prabhupada: Yes, that’s all right… Dr. Patel: That is what I say. Prabhupada: …but, my point is… Dr. Patel: See, experiment depends upon all that. Prabhupada: …if there is truth, where is the scope of experiment? Dr. Patel: I mean, that you want to, you want to pick up that point, then you are absolutely right, there is no experiment. Prabhupada: Yes. It is contradiction. If you say “truth,” there is no question of experiment. That I…, try to understand. It is contradiction. Dr. Patel: By all these jnani-yogis, I mean you are a bhakti-yogi, but I talk of jnana-yogis. Prabhupada: Jnana-yoga is also truth if you follow. Just like jnanavasthita tad gatena manasa. So that is truth. But when there is question of experiment, that is not truth. That is my point. Dr. Patel: Then they are making experiment in an area which is not already known. Prabhupada: Yes, that means that that is not truth. So experiment with truth cannot be; this is contradiction. Dr. Patel: No, you are right that way. Prabhupada: Yes. Dr. Patel: But your how…, ask a question puzzling with me. So I… Prabhupada: No, I ask you, that how this experiment with truth can be? Dr. Patel: The experiment with sciences, we are making experiment with biological sciences and abstract, I mean sciences of physics and chemistry, and that those who are truths already, we are trying to honor. We cannot make truths. Truths are there already settled by God. God, we try to find out what is exactly, and how it is being done. But we are not trying to find out who is doing. That is your point. I understand. Prabhupada: No. If the truth is there, there is no question of experiment. Dr. Patel: We are experimenting to find out the truth. Truth is there. My house is there, sir, but you may go this way or that way, that way. We are making experiment to go to my house. Prabhupada: So that means you do not know what is the truth. Dr. Patel: Truth is there, but we do not know the truth. That’s a fact. Prabhupada: Yes, that’s a fact. Dr. Patel: We are making experiment to…, experiment by this way will lead up to the truth. Prabhupada: Yes. Dr. Patel: Experiment means repeat, with regard to the matter of finding out the truth. Not with the truth itself. Prabhupada: Yes. But the word means, “experiment with truth,” that is contradiction. There cannot be any experiment with truth. Truth is truth. Dr. Patel: Truth cannot be experimented upon. Prabhupada: Yes. That is… Dr. Patel: That I quite agree with you, and I become (indistinct). But so far as the method of finding out truth, that I experiment with. Prabhupada: That can be there, that is another thing. Dr. Patel: All our physical sciences… Prabhupada: Another thing… Dr. Patel: I mean, ah, I mean, ah… Prabhupada: Hare Krsna! ( to passerby) (Hindi ) Are you all right? Dr. Patel: All these sciences, mathematics, chemistry, physics, they have really been advanced by experimentation only. Because we did not know what the truth is behind all these natural phenomena, and we tried to find out the real, how the natural phenomena are, I mean, happening, and that is what the experimentation of the human race was searching out the truth… Prabhupada: That is explained in Bhagavad-gita, tattva-jnanartha-darsanam. Tattva-jnanartha-darsana. Dr. Patel: But these truths, sir, are approached, I mean actually realized, by various ways. The, I mean the jnana-yogis or yogis, what you call, they realize it, I mean, because the jnanis, they become, by concentration of their mind on the truth, they, that which is highest truth or God. They are after all trying… Prabhupada: The yogis, they have already found the truth. Jnanavasthita tad-gatena manasa pasyanti yam yoginam. So they have already found out the truth, and they are concentrating. That is not experiment. They have already know. Dr. Patel: But, I don’t say they have experimented on the truth, sir. I think I am not making myself more clear to you. What I meant to say is they have experimented by concentration of the mind to find out the truth, and they realize the truth that way. Prabhupada: No. Realize, that’s a fact. Now they are acting, by…. Tad-gatena manasa, mind is fixed up in Supersoul, Paramatma. That is yoga. Dr. Patel: Yes. You mean to say, hm, that… Prabhupada: They have already, nobody (indistinct) truth. Dr. Patel: Yes. Brahma-vid brahma eva bhavati, he is just like…. All the knowledge of God is imbibed within. Prabhupada: Yes, he is concentrated. Just like our bhakti. Bhakti means we know, “Here is God: krsnas tu bhagavan svayam.” So there is no question of experimenting. Now we are known, we are concentrating how to satisfy. There is no question of experimentation. Dr. Patel: But the physical scientists’ method, chemistry, biology, is, I mean, this physics, they have to experiment in their…. They are nothing but the finding out the truth behind the phenomena, the material phenomena. That is what I mean. Prabhupada: Phenomena is changeable, always changing. Just like this samudra—sometimes here, sometimes there. Dr. Patel: Yes, right, sir. But why the samudra changes? We go into there, into deep depth of that… Prabhupada: That is truth. That is truth. By the yasyajnaya bhramati sambhrta-kala-cakro, that is truth. Govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami **. That is truth. The phenomena, that is changing. Bhutva bhutva praliyate. Dr. Patel: Are you going tomorrow? Prabhupada: Yes. Dr. Patel: Tomorrow at what time? Prabhupada: I do not know. What time? Saurabha: What time, Harikesa? Harikesa: Actually, nobody knows. Dr. Patel: Tomorrow is Christmas day. You are going on twenty- seventh. Prabhupada: No, twenty-fifth. Kirtanananda: Somebody said you were going at noon. Harikesa: I don’t think anyone knows yet. Kirtanananda: Why is that? Harikesa: Haven’t bought the tickets yet. Kirtanananda: No reservations yet? Prabhupada: All right just to understand? If truth is there, there is no question of experiment. And if experiment is there, that is not truth. Kirtanananda: Perfectly logical. Prabhupada: Huh? Kirtanananda: That is correct. Prabhupada: It is contradiction. Lokanatha: Their experiments are only speculation. Prabhupada: Yes. Kirtanananda: One wants to experiment, it means they don’t know what is truth. Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as there is experiment, there is no truth. And if there is truth, there is no experiment. Kirtanananda: One simply accepts the truth. Prabhupada: Truth, we accept or not accept: truth is truth. Hm? There is a father. That is a truth. You may not know who is your father, that is another thing. But this is a fact, there is father. Lokanatha: You have said many times that when mother says “This is your father,” you have to accept. Prabhupada: Yes, that is truth. Lokanatha: We cannot go for experimenting other possibilities. Prabhupada: Yes. There is no question of experimenting whether he is my father. You take the truth from the mother, and that’s final. [break] …being more and more convinced, why Krsna says na mam duskrtino mudha prapadyante naradhamah? Huh? Anyone who is not Krsna conscious, he is within these groups, duskrtino mudhah. That is being more and more confirmed. Kirtanananda: They may appear like moral men or learned men, but still they are… Prabhupada: Not… Kirtanananda: …rascal. Prabhupada: Rascal, yes. Therefore it begins in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, satyam param dhimahi. The beginning is truth. Satyam param dhimahi. There is no question of experiment. It is not this book, Bhagavata, is an experiment to find out. It is beginning from the truth. Satyam param dhimahi. Lokanatha: What is sadhana-bhakti? Prabhupada: Sadhana-bhakti is practice. Truth is there, but how to be intimately connected with truth, that is sadhana. Lokanatha: So sometimes we say to karmis that “Why don’t you make an experiment, just try to chant Hare Krsna, make an experiment, and you will realize it.” Prabhupada: Because he does not know; therefore we suggest experiment. He does not know. Lokanatha: So we ask him to perform the… Prabhupada: Ah, that means, my proposition is that one who does not know, for him experiment. One who knows, there is no experiment. Lokanatha: But there is… Prabhupada: You are asking, requesting to chant Hare Krsna, but this is not experiment for me, it is experiment for him. He does not know; therefore you are suggesting, “You do like this, and you will understand.” Jagat-purusa: They are conditioned to make experiments. Prabhupada: Yes. Jagat-purusa: So they can dovetail that conditioning. Prabhupada: There is no question of experimenting, but he does not know, he is given chance, “All right, try like this.” But truth is there. Hare Krsna. Jaya. (to passerby) Oh, the water has gone this way. (Hindi conversation about the tide) Sridhara: Srila Prabhupada, people can understand that the truth is already there, but they can’t understand how by meditating on one particular person or thing, all other truths automatically become realized. They want to experiment to find out what is the unlimited truth. Prabhupada: Let them experiment. Because he does not know the truth perfectly well. Sridhara: So just by meditating on the person Krsna, all other truths become known? Prabhupada: Yes. Kirtanananda: Prabhupada doesn’t say that no one can… Prabhupada: There are some animals, they do not actually touch the egg—birds. Or the, I think, what is called, tortoise. They simply concentrate, and the egg comes into being. Lokanatha: If you hear the truth, there is no need to make an experiment at all. Isn’t it? Prabhupada: Hm. That is perfect experiment. Lokanatha: That is, that happens with full sraddha. When there is unflinching faith, he will not go for making the experiment. Kirtanananda: [break] …come and dance at aratik? Prabhupada: Hm? Kirtanananda: If they want to swing their arms, why not come to arati and dance? (talking about people exercising on beach) In 1966, Prabhupada, we went up to Dr. Mishra’s asrama upstate. And there was some yogi from the New York Institute there, and he said that automatically, just see these devotees, automatically they are doing everything that we are teaching, just by this one process of chanting Hare Krsna. Prabhupada: That is the statement by Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Viha hoite sarva siddhe hoi betaman. By practicing this chanting, you’ll get all perfection. Kirtanananda: One morning we were out walking in a sunrise, and Hayagriva pointed out, “Oh, there’s a very beautiful sunrise,” and you said, “The sunrise is not very wonderful, but He who has made it is wonderful.” Prabhupada: The point is, they glorify the scientists, another scientist, but they are so fool they do not glorify who has made that brain. You cannot make that brain. Indian man: [break] …I told him it might be that (indistinct) they have not done all these things, go to Krsna temple, coming back, nine thirty, ten o’clock. Then take all this train… Prabhupada: That is Krsna’s favor. Yes. Krsna is favoring to finish this job. Indian man: Now we know that janma is…. I told him they may not be having many other janma, that may be why they are suffering like this now. Prabhupada: No. There is no suffering. Their material existence is being reduced on account of serving Krsna. Indian man: One lady is there in Bombay, whole family, old lady, young children die. Prabhupada: Yasyaham anugrhnami harisye tad-dhanam sanaih This is special favour of Krsna because they, by this pious activity, they wanted this material enjoyment, which you are complaining, that they are reducing material enjoyment. But that is Krsna’s favor. He doesn’t want reduction of material enjoyment; at the same time, they want to worship Krsna. So Krsna is seeing that these fools, they want Me, and at the same time material enjoyment. So “Finish their material enjoyment; they will simply think of Me.” bhogaisvarya-prasaktanam tayapahrta-cetasam vyavasayatmika buddhih samadhau na vidhiyate So long one will be too much absorbed in this material enjoyment, he cannot be perfectly devotee. Therefore sometimes Krsna, when He sees “Someone is serious to get Me,” and at the same time he wants material enjoyment, so indirectly or directly He finishes that material enjoyment. That is a special favor. Kirtanananda: (referring to passerby) The dogs are taking the lady for a walk. Lokanatha: The man’s body is made up of kapha, pitha, vayu, and woman’s body also has the same ingredients. Prabhupada: Everybody. Lokanatha: So then what is basic difference between human body, I mean man’s body and woman’s body, which attracts each other? Prabhupada: Because if you want to be attracted, God has made in such a way that both of them are attractive to one another. That’s all. You want to be attracted; therefore woman is made attractive. And the woman wants to be attracted; man is attractive. This is nature’s arrangement so that you may be bound up by this attraction. Tayor mitha hrdaya-granthih mam. You are already bound up, and by this attraction you will be more tightly bound up. Pumsam striya mithuni-bhavam etad. The whole material attraction means a man’s attraction for woman and a woman’s attraction for man. But when they are seeking, “Where is woman, where is woman, where is woman,” and the woman is seeking, they come here to make this business. Huh? And when they are actually attracted or united, then this bondage, material bondage, will become more tight. Therefore the Vedic civilization is how to slacken it, and ultimately, by force, separation, sannyasa. Because unless they are separated, there cannot be any spiritual advancement. That is the whole process. The unity is bondage. I have written a letter that man is good, woman is good, and when they are united, they are bad! (laughs) Both of them are bad. And the material world is taking, “This is the best thing.” But actually that is not the thing. Man is good, because he is part and parcel of God, and woman is good, part and parcel of God, but when they unite, they become bad. Tayor mithadi hrdayanti-maho. Lokanatha: For detachment you suggest they remain separate. Prabhupada: Yes. Unless they are separated, it is very difficult to advance in spiritual consciousness. That is the whole Vedic system. Gradual. First of all, brahmacari, he is educated very nicely that this is not good to marry and enter into a family life. And in spite of education, if he is still inclined, then he is allowed to marry. This is a concession. And that is for a few days, few years. Then compulsory separation from the family life. Vanaprastha. At that time, wife is allowed to stay with the husband, but finally they are separated, sannyasa. Wife should go home, remain with their children. That’s all. Lokanatha: So when they are grhastha, they make advancement? Prabhupada: Hm? That advancement is not very solid. But there is advancement; but that is not very solid. Sridhara: Without sex pleasure a man and a woman would not be attracted to one another. Prabhupada: Yes. Attraction means that sex. There is no other. Yan maithunadi grhamedi sukham hi tuccham. Why they are working so hard day and night? Only for that sex pleasure. That is the psychology. There is no other happiness. Yan maithunadi grhamedhi sukham hi tuccham [SB 7.9.45] Their happiness is based on the center of sex pleasure. Sridhara: So the body of a woman only reminds of the sex pleasure. Prabhupada: No, no. Body of man or woman. The same thing. This is the only pleasure. In this material world, so-called pleasure means sex pleasure. Why they are working so hard day and night? Only for that sex pleasure. That is the center. Lokanatha: They say, “We want to come together to serve the Lord.” Is that excuse or is that… Prabhupada: Together they go to hell. (laughs) Devotee: Srila Prabhupada, in your society, if sometimes householder devotee, they do very big, big job, I mean they are advanced then? Prabhupada: Who has done that big job? Hm? You have done? Devotee: Well, we see all the GBC, and they are doing very nicely, like Saurabha dasa and Murti dasa. Prabhupada: They are sannyasis. Saurabha is sannyasa. His wife doesn’t live with him. Kirtanananda: The same principle is there for everyone, in so far as one becomes detached, then he’s sannyas. Prabhupada: Yes, sannyasa. Detachment required. Kirtanananda: It is not a matter of cloth. Prabhupada: No. Sa sannyasi. Anasaktasya visayan. He has no attachment for this eating, sleeping, mating. He is attached to Krsna. And that is sannyasi. Sannyasi does not means dress. Detached. Sat sannyasi. Sat, om tat sat, the supreme, and for Him everything, risk all. That is sannyasa. Anasaktya… What is that? Bhagavad-gita? Indian man: Anasritah karma-phalam karyam karma… Prabhupada: Ah, anasritah karma-phalam, karyam karma karoti yah sa sannyasi… One who does not take the reward of his labor, he is sannyasi. Anasritah karam-phalam. Everyone works for some profit, and one who does not take the profit, works for Krsna, he is sannyasi. Anasritah karma-phalam, karyam. Karyam means it is my duty to work for Krsna. In this way one works, he is sannyasi. Anasritah karma-phalam karyam karma karoti yah, sa sannyasi ca yogi ca na niraghir na cakriyah. He is yogi also. Hare Krsna. (to passerby) Just like Arjuna. He is fighting not for himself; for himself he declined to fight. But when he understood that Krsna wants, “All right, karisye vacanam tava [Bg. 18.73]. I shall fight. I shall kill my grandfather and everyone.” This is sannyasi. Devotee: Srila Prabhupada, in the Caitanya-caritamrta it is said that if a devotee is sincerely serving the Lord, and Krsna takes away his material opulence, and still if he’s sincerely serving the Lord, the Lord becomes his intimate servant, He says. Prabhupada: Intimate servant? Devotee: Yes. In one purport in Caitanya-caritamrta. Prabhupada: Is there, “servant,” this word is used? Devotee: Becomes his friend. Prabhupada: That’s all right. [break] …stated in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, Fifth Canto, that there are grhasthas, they are not attached to grhastha. They actually, they are attached to Krsna, but maybe for convenience sake he remains a grhastha. Grhastha, there are two words: grhastha and grhamedhi. One who is grhamedhi, he is hopeless. One who is grhastha, that is all right. (end)
with His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada
December 24, 1975, Bombay