Room Conversation Guest: …you have seen today, that is worth two lakhs of dollars. In two lakhs of dollars you can have a palace in Iraq(??). Prabhupada: No, not palace… Guest: But two lakhs here… You have to have all two lakhs completely in your hand before you can step into this house. All there with two lakhs, you step into the house, a palace or (indistinct) house. Prabhupada: Our Los Angeles temple, what we paid? Dayananda, you know? Dayananda: It was 225, I think. Prabhupada: Oh, 225, hundred thousand. Dayananda: $225,000. Guest: Two hundred and twenty-five thousand. That must be a gorgeous place. Beautiful, beautiful, huge. Guest (2): Name must appear very large. Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Guest: And what was the down payment for that? Prabhupada: I paid 50,000. Guest: Fifty thousand. Here the down payment means the total payment. You have to pay everything. Guest (2): And land is so small. Must be very small. Land is only two hundred and… (everyone talking at once) Guest: But we expect that in one or two years’ time the prices of land will come back to normal, or at least there will be some place available out of town at a reasonable price. When that happens, I think… Atreya Rsi: I don’t think that will happen. Guest: (general discussion about land purchasing) But now, you know, people are taking advantage. The one who is selling now, he is going to America. He says, “Let me pack this two lakhs of dollars and go and buy in America.’’ Why should (indistinct)? Prabhupada: So American immigration? Guest: Yes, he must have taken immigration. Then he is going to America. His son or daughter must be there. All Iranians have daughters and sons in America or Europe. So… Prabhupada: What is the reason? Guest: Reason is because from the last fifty years the education was a big problem here, and the government needed people to get educated. So they gave a lot of facilities that people should send their children out to get educated. Prabhupada: Foreign education. Guest: Yes. So everybody who could have some money or he could afford it, he sends his children to America, London, Paris, Germany. Very huge (indistinct). But they are full in Germany, they are full in London, they are full in America. They are four places where everybody… In London you can walk everywhere on the street and you can hear… Prabhupada: (to other guest) Oh, you are going? Thank you very much. (Bengali) (long pause) Devotee (1): The idea is that if you work hard and try to please Krsna, then you’ll get a temple. Guest: Yes. Devotee (1): Srila Prabhupada arrived in New York with only… Eight dollars? How many dollars you had when you arrived in New York? Prabhupada: Seven dollars. (laughter) Devotee (1): Seven dollars. Dayananda: But I think you got that from selling the Bhagavatams. Prabhupada: That extra. We brought from India seven dollars. At that time the exchange was four rupees, eight annas. And you were not allowed to take more than forty rupees. That is same now. So I wanted to sell one set of books to the captain, Mr. Pandia. So he gave me twenty dollars in exchange, three books. I was confident Krsna was there, (indistinct) seven dollars. (Hindi)… [break] …strongly by chance? Devotee (1): Yes. Prabhupada: How do they support? In other words, they cannot give explanation, and like a foolish man says “Chance.’’ You cannot give proper explanation how things are happening. Like a foolish rascal: “Chance.’’ Dayananda: Because they see according to their intelligence that things are happening according to chance. According to their understanding, sometimes things happen… Prabhupada: So what is this understanding? The chance? Dayananda: In their experience, or in our experience, we see things are happening… Prabhupada: Then what is the use of the scientists? Things take place by chance. What is the use of them? Dayananda: By chance there may be an accident, or by chance there may be… Prabhupada: Anyway, things will happen by chance, accident. So why they’re bothering about things and taking the credit of becoming scientist? Dayananda: It’s not completely chance. There are certain laws which they try to find, which act whenever these elements… Prabhupada: So in other words, that they are not yet conversant with the things, and still they are claiming to be scientist. They do not know thoroughly how things are happening, and still they are taking the credit of becoming scientist. Dayananda: They have developed a branch of mathematics that deals with chance, things happening with chance. Prabhupada: Yes, that mathematics department is now being closed. You know that? Nobody cares to attend that mathematic meeting. People are becoming disinterested with these chance theories. There is one Dr. Henderson, you know? He became doctor in that field. He’s not getting job, now he’s manufacturing incense. Dayananda: Oh, George Henderson? Prabhupada: George Henderson. He has no job here. All these theoretical doctors are no longer required by (indistinct). Devotee (2): I was reading the other day that they are doing some experiments on Mars. They have twenty-two different theories about this one idea. Just this one little idea, twenty-two different theories. Prabhupada: Theory means they are not certain. Devotee (2): The misfortunate thing is that people in general have faith in the scientists. Prabhupada: So you have to create people to have faith in Krsna. If people are going by faith, so you have to create this faith that Krsna (indistinct). They can create, you can create. And they criticize our destiny theory, believing in the destiny. They criticize it. So why they’ll depend on chance theory? What is the difference, destiny and chance? Devotee (2): Destiny means there is controller. Prabhupada: Huh? Devotee (2): Destiny means there is a controller. Prabhupada: That’s all right, but they cannot explain what is this controller; therefore they disbelieve. Just like yesterday we were discussing that atheist class, that they are by chance there was lusty desires and there was pregnancy and there will be child. So we say, “No. Daiva-netrena. These things have been arranged by superior authorities.’’ This is destiny, that what is already arranged by superior authority, that is destiny. You cannot change it. A man is ordered to be hanged by court justice, you cannot change. He is to be hanged. And they will say, “By chance he will be hanged.” Jnanagamya: Sometimes something happens to interfere with that. He gets a reprieve from the governor, or the rope breaks, and they only hang him once. Prabhupada: That is another thing, but first thing is that if one is ordered to be hanged, he has to be hanged. Destined. But these people, they do not see who has ordered because they do not accept authority. They will say, “It is by chance.’’ They have not seen who has ordered, who is that authority. They cannot explain; therefore they say “Chance.” Jnanagamya: They have no science of astrology, so they cannot understand the universe and how it’s working. Prabhupada: Astrology… I don’t think they believe in astrology. There is no question of astrology. We practically we see that one man ordered to be hanged by the justice, he has to be hanged. That is destiny. One has not seen who has ordered, but he sees that “This man is being hanged.’’ He cannot explain; he says, “By chance.’’ So whose explanation is right? The chance explanation or the destiny explanation—which is right? Atreya Rsi: Actually, logically, I cannot see how there is any chance, not a single. When I was a child I used to give an argument to my friend, and he used to say, “A chance. Everything is chance. It is like a lottery ticket.’’ I said to him, “If you don’t buy the lottery ticket and win $50,000, then that is chance. But if you buy the lottery ticket…” Prabhupada: How it is chance? Atreya Rsi: There is no chance, because you bought the lottery ticket, so… Prabhupada: Your destiny. Then your destiny. Atreya Rsi: They miss the order and the controller and the organizer… Prabhupada: That is whole purpose—how to defy God. That is their whole plan. Atreya Rsi: Yes, the mind is attracted to that. Prabhupada: No, there are always two classes of men: devata and demons. Demon class will always say like that, “There is no God. We are everything.’’ Devata class, they will always believe in. That is the difference, devata class. This struggle will always be there. (Sanskrit) There are two classes of men throughout the whole universe. One is called daiva and the other is called asura. The Visnu-bhaktah bhaved daivah.(?) Those who are devotees of the Lord, they are daiva. And asura (Sanskrit). And those who are not devotees, they are just the opposite number, they are asura. So asura class will always (coughs) say like that. And there is always fight between the two, even in higher planetary systems. Only Brahmaloka, Satyaloka, there are no more asuras. So asura class will always fight like that, and devata class will always defy. But for God everyone is equal, because all of them are sons of God. Therefore an attempt is always going on to turn the asuras to become devotees. For this purpose God Himself comes, He sends His representative, how these rascal asuras can be turned into devotees. Otherwise the asura class will always be there. Atreya Rsi: That’s the business of the representative. Prabhupada: Yes. Because God is equal to everyone. He sees that these rascal asuras are misguided, so He sends His representative, He comes Himself, there is sastras, guidance, and everything. The whole propaganda is how these rascal asuras can be turned into devata. This is equality in the eyes of God. Very simple thing. Just like government puts a person into prison house. The idea is to correct him. Not that government is enemy of a class of men, they are put into the prison house. Government is equal. But there is department of punishing this… (aside:) (indistinct) Government is equal to everyone, but there is this department of reformation which is called jail department. He’s punished so that he may come to his senses that “I have done wrong.’’ But unfortunately there are stubborn criminals, they are not corrected. They go and again come, go and again come. One term finished, another term. One term finished… That is transmigration. One term finished, punishment, and another term begins. He creates another term. So that is daiva netrena. That is superior arrangement. Now this rascal has finished his human form of life, now again he has committed so many sins, let him become a dog. Again comes to the human form of life, again one chance is given. This not good, but he does not accept, so again he becomes a tree—stand up for ten thousand years. Nothing is a chance. Everything is under supreme control. Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani sarvasah [Bg. 3.27]. But he is a rascal. He simply defies and suffers. One man is being slapped with shoes, so he is shameless, he says, “Oh, you have beaten me with shoes. All right, if you touch my wife, I’ll sue you.’’ Then the wife is beaten with shoes, then he says, “Oh, you have beaten my wife. All right, touch my son, I will sue you.’’ In this way every member is being beaten with shoes, and he is simply challenging that “I’ll sue, I’ll sue.’’ This is going on. He’s punished one after another, but still he is so shameless that still he defies the authority. That is called asura. They’re not very intelligent. “Next time I will see. Wait millions of years, I shall see…’’ So we have to deal with asuras. This is the position. Devotee: That’s why it’s so difficult. Prabhupada: Huh? Devotee: That’s why it’s so difficult. Prabhupada: Yes. Atreya Rsi: That is a devotee’s business. Prabhupada: Huh? Yes. That is devotee. Because God wants it that these rascals may be turned into sane man. That is God’s plan. Otherwise why does He comes? Yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavati bharata [Bg. 4.7]. Huh? Paritranaya sadhunam vinasaya ca duskrtam [Bg. 4.8]—two class, sadhu and duskrtinah. So to punish these duskrtinah there is reformation. That is not God’s enemy, reformation. As the father gives slap to rogue child, that is also kindness. So these two processes are going on, paritranaya sadhunam vinasaya ca duskrtam. Dharma-samsthapanarthaya. Then what is that dharma? Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam [Bg. 18.66]. That is dharma. So to deal with the asuras is not so easy job, but we have to do that. You should not be discouraged. So asuras may be reformed or not be reformed, but because you are trying this job on behalf of Krsna, He will recognize you. Your service will be recognized. Not that you attempted, therefore you must be successful. You may be unsuccessful. It does not matter. But you have tried your best, and that will be recognized. (pause) And these asuras are trying to become happy by material advancement of knowledge. They’re not happy—struggling—but this is called will- o’-the-wisp, phantasmagoria. Actually, they are not happy, they cannot be happy, but they are trying. How they can be happy? Nature is there. Devotee: They are falsely proud of their achievements. Prabhupada: That is asura. That is, that means asura. They have already tried the moon excursion, failure, again do it. This will be a failure, again do it. Punah punas carvita-carvananam [SB 7.5.30]. Repeatedly chewing the chewed. That is their business. One excursion—failure. It is already chewed. Whatever possibility finished—again chewing: “Let me see if there is any juice.’’ Because they have no other business. Punah punas carvita-carvananam [SB 7.5.30]. Adanta-gobhir visatam tamisram punah punas carvita-carvananam. Matir na krsne paratah svato va. There are already discussed. matir na krsne paratah svato va mitho ’bhipadyeta grha-vratanam adanta-gobhir visatam tamisram punah punas carvita-carvananam [SB 7.5.30] This is their business. Failure, again; failure, again. One war started, all the city bombarded—finished—again start, again reconstruct. And when the reconstruct finished, again war. Again bomb it, again reconstruct. Jnanagamya: Sometimes boys come here and they are involved in impersonal meditation. They want liberation… Prabhupada: Well, that is their business. Let them do. You try to understand the position. Meditation is also something. Asuras, they do not take to meditation. Meditation is something beginning to the path of devata. Dhyanavasthita. If they are actually serious then they can profit. Meditation is not always bad, if they are properly guided. But that is not the business of the asuras. They say, “On whom I shall meditate?’’ The asuras do not do that. Devotee: They have special meditation for asuras. Prabhupada: Eh? Devotee: They have special classes in meditation for asuras. They give them some meaningless word to meditate upon. Prabhupada: So what is the purpose of this meditation? Devotee: To make…, to relax the mind. Prabhupada: Oh, that is another thing. Material. That is, er, Transcendental Meditation. (long pause) Jnanagamya: How can we convince them? Prabhupada: Hm? How can you convince? They are asuras. Jnanagamya: No, those who doing some meditation that are Krsna consciousness… Prabhupada: No, they are also asuras. They do not know what is the meaning of meditation. That is psychology. It is not meditation. Or some medical treatment. Meditation is different, real meditation. Devotee: What is… What is real meditation? Prabhupada: Real meditation is to find out the Supersoul within the core of the heart. That is real meditation. God is situated in everyone’s heart, so the yogis, they try to find out the Supersoul within the heart. That is real yogi. Dhyanavasthita-tad-gatena manasa pasyanti yam yoginam. This is real yogi, trying to contact the Supersoul. They are searching after the God in His all-pervading feature. But, ah, some of them, they want to become one. That is asuric. One with God, that is asuric. Because they are being defeated by God, so therefore they want to become God to stop this defeat. That is asuric. Therefore they will never be able to be, but they are trying for it. Jnanagamya: It is the highest blasphemy. Prabhupada: Huh? Jnanagamya: It is the highest blasphemy, isn’t it? If one says, “I am God.” Prabhupada: No, highest ignorance, highest rascaldom. (laughter) Yes. How one can become God? If one can become God, that means the such-and-such, he was God. Then how he has become dog? That is another rascaldom, ambition. Jnanagamya: A devotee is only supposed to want service, and sometimes he very much wants to be liberated to be finished with all this difficulty, isn’t it? Prabhupada: Yes. Jnanagamya: Is it very contaminating? Prabhupada: Not contaminating, not in the highest stage. That is not contaminating. If the devotee wants liberation, then they’re in the lower stage. Actually, a devotee, he is already liberated. Why he shall aspire after liberation? Jnanagamya: Pure devotee’s liberated. Prabhupada: Therefore when he’s purified, he’s already liberated. There is no question of his aspiring after liberation. He’s already liberated. Sa gunan samatityaitan brahma-bhuyaya kalpate [Bg. 14.26] Atreya Rsi: If the devotee’s purified, he’s convinced that if he becomes purified he will be free. Prabhupada: Yes. The whole devotional process is purificatory process. The more he is purified, he becomes high-class devotee. But the process is the path of liberation. Just like mango. The green mango, this green mango will be ripe mango. The same mango. You cannot say that the ripe mango is different from the green mango. It is a process. By the process the same green mango becomes yellow; then it is perfect. (long pause, devotees chant japa in background) What is that point, there are thirty theories or something about this Mars planet? Devotee: Twenty-two theories. Prabhupada: You just told? Devotee: They are trying to understand the geology of the planet and how the surface of the planet was formed, what… Prabhupada: They have different… [break] Devotee: They are so foolish that they say these experiments are very wonderful. They are very proud of these experiments… Prabhupada: Hm? Because they do not know. Devotee: Yes, the result is… Prabhupada: Wonderful. Do not know. Wonderfully do not know. The platform is, “Do not know”; it is still wonderful. Wonderful foolish, like that. The platform remains “Do not know,’’ but still it is wonderful. Jnanagamya: Their most intelligent philosophers and thinkers always say… Prabhupada: Hm? Jnanagamya: Their most intelligent philosophers and thinkers, they always say that the more that we know, the more we understand that we don’t know. (indistinct) Prabhupada: And that is wonderful. The more they become convinced that “I do not know,’’ that is wonderful. When they’ll know? Devotee: Then they make these statements that “The earth is this old…’’ They make statements like “The earth is this many years,’’ without any factual basis. Prabhupada: They are wonderful rascals. Shameless. Wonderful shameless rascals. They say that the moon planet is desert, vacant, no living entities. And we say that it is the planet for the pious men to live there very opulently for ten thousand… Of these two classes of knowledge, which is better? We have got some evidence from the sastra, but they have no evidence. They are simply speculating. Now this moon…, er, Mars, they’ll find the same result. Then how long they will go on like this? Atreya Rsi: As long as the society is godless… Prabhupada: Huh? Atreya Rsi: As long as the society’s godless, then… Prabhupada: So how long they’ll present the same theory over and over again? They’re already putting the same thing. They have concluded in the moon there is rocks and sand, nobody can live. The same thing they are saying in a different way, and in the end they will have to say like that. Because they have no knowledge, it is simply theoretical. And they have no other alternative but to say the same thing again and again. What they will say? Jnanagamya: They say on Mars there can be life because the conditions are a little bit like earth. Prabhupada: Suppose there is life, then what you gain? Devotee: They say that our knowledge now is not mere theoretical because now we have gone there. Prabhupada: But what profit you have gained? You have spent some millions of dollars, that’s all. Devotee: More theories. Prabhupada: (chants japa) Devotee: The government encourages this spending of money while the citizens are unhappy and cannot be safe in their own city. Prabhupada: Yes, you must have such government. Dasyu-dharyogi (?). They will snatch your money by force. You cannot say anything. That is punishment. Godless civilization, that is punishment, that your own government will snatch, by force, take away your hard labor accumulation, by taxes. That is written in the Srimad-Bhagavatam. You cannot fight. You will be harassed in so many ways you will become mad. Acchinna-dara-dravina yasyanti giri-kananam. Hopelessly you will leave hearth and home and go to the forest. This godless civilization will be punished like that. That day is coming like that. Nobody will be peaceful. They will be mad. Just like when a man becomes mad, he commits suicide, he blows off his head. This will be done. There will be no rain—this is one punishment—and scarcity of food and heavy taxation by government. They are all mentioned. What more suffering you want? But still they are advancing, scientists. Devotee: One of the most practical things that people give credit to the scientists for is that they have invented these insecticides, these things that kill insects. But now they find that after they spray, after a few generations, the insects become immune to this, and they become stronger. Prabhupada: Yes. The antibiotics medicine, at a certain stage it does not work. If too much antibiotic injection is given, then the (indistinct) does not work. Jnanagamya: It is like that with this syphilis disease, this venereal disease. Now they cannot kill certain strains of it. They cannot do anything about it. (indistinct) That is a big disease in United States. Prabhupada: This is always, Western disease. It is a Western disease. Vairanga-roga (?). In the Ayur Veda it is called vairanga-roga. Fairanga, ferengi, ferengi, the Westerners are called ferengi, the vairanga-roga. So this syphilis disease was imported in India by these Europeans. Before, it was not there. There is a medicine called (indistinct) injection. Fifty years ago it was one rupee, four annas, price. But during the wartime the same medicine was selling at nineteen (ninety?). On black market. Jnanagamya: That is their nature—they will always try to exploit. Prabhupada: Hm. I have seen it, one rupee, four annas, the price goes nineteen (ninety?). Jnanagamya: There is a story about a man who made some perfect cloth that would never get dirty, never get torn. So he made a suit out of it and he was trying to market it. So he went to the capitalists and said, “Now I have made some perfect cloth.’’ And they did not like it because they could not sell more cloth after they sold this. No one would want anything else. And the workers, they did not like it either because they would lose their jobs. No one would buy. Prabhupada: What is that? Jnanagamya: They tried to kill him. Prabhupada: What is that? Devotee: He’s telling a story. Prabhupada: A story. Jnanagamya: The story is about perfect cloth. Prabhupada: Perfect? Devotee: Perfect cloth. Prabhupada: Cloth. Jnanagamya: So everyone was trying to kill him because he had this perfect cloth and it would put everybody out of business, because their business was based on exploitation, on things wearing out, getting old, having to be renewed. Prabhupada: Hm. (indistinct) Hare Krsna. (devotees offer obeisances) (end)
with His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada
Tehran, August 11, 1976