Conversation with Prabhupada: I know everything, but I did not say anything. Yogi Amrit Desai: You knew him before? Prabhupada: No. When I went to America one gentleman here, Paramananda Mehra, he gave me an introductory letter. So he received me well. In the beginning I was staying in his care. But I did not say anything, but I knew everything. Yogi Amrit Desai: I’m sure you did. Prabhupada: I was his guest. He was receiving nightly. Of course, I was indirectly saying him that “You are not doing nice,” but what more I could do? Yogi Amrit Desai: I have so much love for you, and I said I must come for a darsana. Prabhupada: Thank you. Yogi Amrit Desai: I was telling to the devotees. I said that you are… Prabhupada: You are with Dr. Mishra? Yogi Amrit Desai: No, I’m not. I was telling all the devotees here. I said Sri Prabhupada is the first man who brought bhakti in the West, where it is needed most. Because there they are so much in the head, thinking, thinking, thinking. This path of love is so profound. Prabhupada: Just see. If you present a real genuine thing, it will be effective. Yogi Amrit Desai: That is why it is growing so beautifully, because it is genuine. Prabhupada: And it is the duty of the Indians to give them genuine thing. That is para-upakara. Before me, all these swamis and yogis went there to cheat them. Yogi Amrit Desai: No, they were afraid to give the truth because they were afraid they will not be accepted. Prabhupada: They did not know what is truth. (laughter) Not afraid. Why? If one is on the platform of truth, why he should be afraid? Yogi Amrit Desai: Sure. Prabhupada: They did not know what is truth, beginning from Vivekananda. Yogi Amrit Desai: All the way, right. See, after you came… I was there in 1960. I started teaching yoga. But after you came I became fearless to teach bhakti and chant mantras. So now we have lots of bhakti in asrama, lots of bhakti. And I paid that respect to you because I was afraid to give them because I thought, “They are Christians. They will not like so much devotion. They will misunderstand.” But you have performed a miracle. God, Krsna, has performed miracle through you. It’s just very amazing, greatest miracle on earth. I just feel so strongly about it. Prabhupada: It is very kind of you that you give this statement. If we give genuine thing, it will act. Yogi Amrit Desai: Right. This is what I’m doing too. Everyone… We have about 180 people who live permanently in the asrama, and they all practice celibacy. Everyone wakes up at 4:00, and they sleep by 9:00. And they don’t touch even each other. They sleep different quarters. They sit even separately in sat-sanga. Everything strict. No drugs, no alcohol, no meat, no tea, no coffee, no garlic, no onion. Prabhupada: Very good. Yes. We are following this. But you have got any Deity? Yogi Amrit Desai: Yes. Lord Krsna and Radha is our Deities. My guru is Swami Kripalu-anandi. He is in… Near Baroda he has an asrama. He practiced his sadhana for twenty-seven years, and twelve years was complete silence. The last few years he is speaking once or twice a year because many people request. Prabhupada: He’s not chanting? Yogi Amrit Desai: He chants. During his silence, his chanting is allowed. Because when he says… When you say the name of the Lord, that is not called breaking the silence. So he chants. Prabhupada: Silence means we shall not talk nonsense. We shall chant Hare Krsna. That is silence. Instead of wasting time, talking on this material thing, let us chant Hare Krsna. That is positive. And the silence is negative. Stop nonsense; speak sense. Yogi Amrit Desai: Right! That is right. Prabhupada: Param drstva nivartate. Param drstva nivartate. If one ceases his nonsense, then param, the Supreme… Param drstva nivartate. When you have got better things, then you give up naturally the rubbish. So anything material, that is rubbish. Karma, jnana, yoga, they’re all material. Karma, jnana, yoga. Even up to so- called yogas, they’re all material. Yogi Amrit Desai: You consider that as a material. Only bhakti-yoga is more… That’s true. Prabhupada: Yes. Karma… What is the difference between the karmis and yogis? Yogis want some siddhis, and karmis want some material profit. Both of them are in want. They are not free from want. Is it not? Yogi Amrit Desai: No, it depends on the yogi. My guru is a yogi, but he never demonstrated any power ever. Prabhupada: No, no… Yogi, he wants siddhi. Yogis… Of course, nowadays yogis, they have no siddhis. Yogi Amrit Desai: (laughs) That’s right. Even they don’t have that. Prabhupada: They simply say, “yogi.” But the real yogi means they have got siddhis, asta-siddhi: anima, laghima, mahima, prapti, isita, vasita. These are siddhis. Yogis, if they are real yogi, then I can put you into the room, lock it, and you can come out. That is yogi, not by simply showing some posture. Yogi Amrit Desai: That’s right. They’re the real siddhis. Prabhupada: That is another thing to control the senses. But real yogis mean the first siddhi is anima. Yogi… Yogi Amrit Desai: They can become smaller than the smallest. Prabhupada: Smaller than the smallest. If there is little hole in the room he’ll come out. Yes. Who is that yogi? That is yogi. Yogi Amrit Desai: Not today. Prabhupada: Therefore it is cheating. They have no siddhi. Yogi Amrit Desai: My gurudeva, he reached nirvikalpa-samadhi seven years ago. Now he is going into divine body. The inner changes are happening, he says. And in pure body… The Caitanya Mahaprabhu, He said every five hundred years one yogi achieves that pure body. Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Santa-jnanesvara, (?) They are lines who reached that spot. Prabhupada: Caitanya Mahaprabhu never said. Yogi Amrit Desai: Divine body? [break] …and renewed and young again. This is what he is… Prabhupada: So if you become young, do you mean to say that you will not die? Yogi Amrit Desai: Yes, because then the body will dissolve, like his guru… Prabhupada: The body… But you… You may get young body. Does it mean that it is guaranteed that you’ll not die? Yogi Amrit Desai: Yes. Prabhupada: Is it? Yogi Amrit Desai: Yes. Prabhupada: Guaranteed? Yogi Amrit Desai: He can reappear anytime, reconstruct his body, physically or… Prabhupada: Reappear any… Soul is reappeared, bhutva bhutva praliyate. Tatha dehantara-praptih. So reappearing, that is natural. That is not wonderful thing. Everyone is reappearing. Tatha dehantara-praptih. Suppose you are in this dress, and after one hour you come in another dress. So you are there. The dress is changed. That is happening by nature’s way. It doesn’t require any yoga practice. It doesn’t require. Bhutva bhutva praliyate. Tatha dehantara-praptir dhiras tatra na muhyati [Bg. 2.13]. These things are there in the Bhagavad-gita. Trivikrama: And the spiritual body? Spiritual body means… Prabhupada: Soul. Spiritual body is now covered with the material body. So anything material, that will not exist. So body is finished; then he has to find new body. Just like the dress is old; it is finished, you take another dress. And when you haven’t got to take dress, or this material body, and you remain in your spiritual body, that is called mukti. That can be achieved only in Krsna consciousness. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti [Bg. 4.9]. Mad-yajino ’pi yanti mam. If you practice Krsna consciousness then it is possible; otherwise not. Tyaktva deham. Everyone has to give up because this body will be old, and one has to give it up. Tyaktva deham punar janma [Bg. 4.9], he doesn’t accept any more material body. Then? What does he…? He’s finished? No, he’s not finished. Mam eti. He becomes eligible to go back home back to Godhead, and there he dances with Krsna. That is real mukti. Muktir hitva anyatha rupam sva-rupena vyavasthitih. Anyatha rupam. Now this rupa is not spiritual, it is material. And mukti means when he gives up this material body and no more accepts any material body, he is transferred to the spiritual world to play with Krsna, to dance with Krsna, to talk with Krsna. That is real… Paramam siddhi. Mam upetya kaunteya duhkhalayam asasvatam [Bg. 8.15]. [break] And so long one is the material things, he… The lowest stage is the karmis, the little higher stage, jnani, and little higher stage, yogi. And the highest stage? Bhakti-yogi. Yogi Amrit Desai: Bhakti. No matter what path you follow, without bhakti it is incomplete. Prabhupada: So you cannot go to God… Yogi Amrit Desai: No, without bhakti, no. Prabhupada: No. Bhaktya mam abhijanati [Bg. 18.55]. Krsna never says, “By karma, jnana, yoga one can achieve Me.” Bhaktya mam abhijanati yavan yas casmi tattvatah. So unless you take to bhakti, a little advancement it may be, but that is material. Yogi Amrit Desai: It’s not of the highest nature. Prabhupada: So you can take… You have taken to bhakti-yoga, but take it seriously, pure bhakti-yoga. Anyabhilasita-sunyam jnana-karmady-anavrtam [BRS 1.1.11]. [break] …favorable, according to bhakti-yoga, then he is successful. Trivikrama: Silanam bhaktir uttama. Yogi Amrit Desai: Pure bhakti. (Hindi) jnana… Prabhupada: (Hindi) Kevala-bodha-labdhaye, klisyanti. Just to know things, if he’s simply troubling, his gain is that troubling only. Sreyah-srtim bhaktim udasya klisyanti ye kevala-bodha-labdhaye. So jnana… This jnana is to understand. Just like the scientists, they are getting some knowledge, studying some features, and what do they gain more? Yogi Amrit Desai: Just information and a memory. Prabhupada: They cannot give any real position. They are studying so many molecules, so many atoms, so many this, so many… They are mixing… They are… That is already going on. How it is going on? Who has set up the machine going on? That they do not know. Yogi Amrit Desai: Right. They don’t know the key part of it. Prabhupada: Neither they can set up similar arrangement. They’re simply studying. Yogi Amrit Desai: They can study what is, but they do not know how it came about. Prabhupada: Yes. So where is jnana? Ajnana. Yogi Amrit Desai: And it can at the most increase the convenience on the material plane. Prabhupada: Jnana, real jnana, is stated in the Bhagavad-gita. Find out. Etaj jnanam iti proktam ajnanam yad ato ’nyatha. What is jnana, that is stated. But where is jnana? Everyone is ajnana. General people, they’re karmis and, little more, jnanis. But jnana is not complete unless he knows the Supreme Lord. Yogi Amrit Desai: Unless he has realized. Prabhupada: Not realized, no. Just like we are talking personally. This is… Jagadisa: Amanitvam adambhitvam ahimsa ksantir arjavam, acaryopasanam saucam… Prabhupada: Yes. So this is acaryopasanam. That is required. But these yogis, jnanis, karmis, they have no acarya. They are self- made. Just like Dr. Russer.(?). He’s self-made. So what he will do? Now he’s caught up. He’s in the trap. He’s not a scientific man, but he presented himself as very scientific, so now he’s caught up. Yogi Amrit Desai: Right. You found it right away. Jagadisa: There’s an index. Prabhupada: Hmm. Go on. Jagadisa: Sthairyam atma-vinigrahah, indriyarthesu vairagyam anahankara eva ca. Prabhupada: Indriyarthesu vairagyam, not to indulge in sense gratification, not to dress himself as a sadhu, as a swami. Yogi Amrit Desai: Not external. Prabhupada: He’s servant of his senses, and he has become a swami. Just see how cheating it is. Yogi Amrit Desai: That’s the real meaning. Prabhupada: Swami means who is the controller of the senses. Yogi Amrit Desai: Master of the senses. Prabhupada: Senses. So instead of swami, he is servant of his senses, and he is preaching as swami. These swamis go to the foreign countries. Indriyarthesu vairagyam. Yogi Amrit Desai: They have vairagya to his senses, of the senses. Prabhupada: A sannyasi… A sannyasi means he has ceased all material desire. There is no material desire. And the concentrated material enjoyment is sex. So if one could not control his sex life, then how he is swami? He’s cheater. Yogi Amrit Desai: That is the most potent of all the external attachments. Prabhupada: That is the essence. Mahat-sevam dvaram ahur vimuktes. Mahat-sevam dvaram ahur vimuktes tamo-dvaram yositam sangi-sangam. Tamo-dvaram. Visatam tamisram adanta-gobhih. Adanta-gobhih, by uncontrolled senses, one is going down and down to the darkest region of material existence. Adanta-gobhir visatam tamisram. So those who are sensuous… One should not be sensuous. That is also… And if he mixes with sensuous persons, then he also going to the hell. Yogi Amrit Desai: Right. One who attaches himself to that. Prabhupada: He’s also going to the hell. Adanta-gobhir visatam tamisram punah punas carvita-carvananam [SB 7.5.30]. So without acaryopasanam, without being under the control of acarya, these are all bogus. Yogi Amrit Desai: That’s exactly what I believe. That’s so true. Jagadisa: Anahankara eva ca, janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi-duhkha-dosanudarsanam. Prabhupada: They are showing some magic. Just like this child was being treated. So he could not check the process of death. Neither it is possible to stop the process of death. Janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi-duhkha… Our real unhappiness is this—janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi. So otherwise why there is knowledge? He does not know what is the miserable condition of life. Everyone knows that he is going to die. He has taken birth; he has become old; he has suffered diseases. Then where is the solution? In America this yoga practice is very popular, and they want some solution of the miseries. But here it is said, “Where is the solution?” Janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi is there. Where is your solution? You cannot stop death. Then where is the solution? This is cheating, that “I shall make solution of your suffering.” But a intelligent man will say, “Can you make a solution of my death, of my old age, of my disease, of my birth?” That is knowledge. But they are poor fellows. They have no knowledge and they cheat. That’s all. Where is solution? Solution is this Krsna consciousness. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9], it is said. Otherwise cheating. Yogi Amrit Desai: Other is settling for the lesser, and it doesn’t take you to the highest. Prabhupada: That means they do not know what is solution, what is the process of solution. Yogi Amrit Desai: Right. Just taking care of the body doesn’t take you anywhere. That’s the lowest. Prabhupada: You may take care as carefully as possible, but it will not exist. Yogi Amrit Desai: Right. No matter how much you take care of it. Prabhupada: That is another foolishness. Janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi-duhkha-dosanudarsanam. Then? Jagadisa: Asaktir anabhisvangah… Prabhupada: Asaktir anabhisvangah putra-dara-grhadisu: completely detached from family life, anabhisvangah, not to associate with so-called society, family, community. Yogi Amrit Desai: All detachment from everyone. Prabhupada: This is all material. Asaktir anabhisvangah putra-dara-grhadisu. Then? Jagadisa: Nityam ca sama-cittatvam istanistopapattisu. Prabhupada: Nityam. One must know that “I am eternal.” Na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg. 2.20]. “So I must act accordingly.” And so far material distress and happiness is concerned, sama-cittatvam. Yogi Amrit Desai: Sama-cittatvam under both success and failure. Prabhupada: That is immaterial thing. They are superficial. Yogi Amrit Desai: Right. It’s so beautiful to hear that. And I know you mean it. Prabhupada: Yes. Then? Jagadisa: Mayi cananya-yogena bhaktir avyabhicarini. Prabhupada: This is possible when it is added with bhakti. Yogi Amrit Desai: With bhakti. Then only. Prabhupada: Mayi ca. Ca means also. Simply practicing these things will not help. Unless there is bhakti, they’ll not agree. Yogi Amrit Desai: It’s not complete. Prabhupada: No, no. It will not agree (avail?). One may be artificially tyagi, but if there is no bhakti he’ll fall down. Just like Visvamitra was a great yogi, but because there was no bhakti he fell down. He had relationship with Menaka and gave birth to Sakuntala, such a big yogi. So he fall down, must fall down in maya, because there is no bhakti. So they have so many cases we see, fall down. Then if you fall down, then where is your bhakti, jnana? Nothing. But bhakti does not fall down. If he’s really on the bhakti stage he does not fall down. Others must fall down. Must. Aruhya krcchrena param padam tatah patanty adho ’nadrta-yusmad-anghrayah [SB 10.2.32]. Then? Jagadisa: vivikta-desa-sevitvam aratir jana-samsadi adhyatma-jnana-nityatvam tattva-jnanartha-darsanam [Bg. 13.11] Prabhupada: Tattva-jnanartha-darsanam. Then? Jagadisa: Etaj jnanam iti proktam… Prabhupada: Etaj jnanam. (Hindi) …jnana. Ajnanam yad ato ’nyatha. Anything else, that is all ajnana. Anything else. Yogi Amrit Desai: Anything else is ajnana. Prabhupada: Ajnana. None of them. Yogi Amrit Desai: Prema-bhakti is sac-cid-ananda. (?) Prabhupada: No, tattva-jnanartha-darsanam. Tattva. Tattva, what is tattva? vadanti tat tattva-vidas tattvam yaj jnanam advayam brahmeti paramatmeti bhagavan iti sabdyate [Bhag. 1.2.11] “One who has understood these three features of the Absolute— Bhagavata—Brahman, Paramatma and Bhagavan, he knows tattva.” That is tattva. Yo janati tattvatah. So where is that tattva-jnana? Tattva-jnanartha-darsanam. That is philosophy, when he is trying to understand the tattva. And Bhagavan says, bhaktya mam abhijanati yavan yas casmi tattvatah [Bg. 18.55] That is tattva. So everything is there, Bhagavad-gita. And they are distorting the meaning of Bhagavad-gita, explaining in their own way and cheating people. We are presenting, therefore, Bhagavad-gita as it is. Then it is acting. So he is now in the West Coast? Yogi Amrit Desai: Who? Yes. Prabhupada: What you are doing there? [break] Actually, brahma satyam jagan mithya. Asat mithya. [break] …asat, but we are now situated in this asat situation life after life. That is called mrtyu-samsara-vartmani. Accepting one body after another, another, another, another, it is going on. Therefore, asat-sanga-tyaga ei vaisnava-acara. Then what is that asat? That Caitanya Mahaprabhu…, stri-sangi eka asadhu krsnabhakta ara. There are two asats. Two asats. Asat-sanga-tyaga. And to give up asat association… Then the next question is: “How you will know who is asat, who is sat?” So He said, asat eka stri-sangi. Anyone who has association with woman, he is asat. Yogi Amrit Desai: That is the strongest bond between the…, to the body and the soul. Prabhupada: He is asat. He doesn’t… We say that stri-sangi, to associate with woman without marriage, we say, “Don’t do this,” but Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, either illicit or legal, it is asat. Yogi Amrit Desai: Either married or unmarried, it is not. Prabhupada: It is asat. Therefore, when He was twenty-four years’ age, He gave up His young…, home, wife. He became a sannyasi, practically. And He was very, very strict to talk with woman. No woman could come before Him to offer respect. Little from far off. But His one of the personal associates, he simply desired. Immediately he was rejected, Chota Haridasa. Yogi Amrit Desai: I didn’t understand. His personal associate… Prabhupada: He had His personal associate. His name was Chota Haridasa. He looked upon one woman with lusty desires. Yogi Amrit Desai: Oh, I see. He looked upon a woman with a lusty desire, and he allowed it… Prabhupada: He immediately rejected him from His association. Yogi Amrit Desai: Really? Prabhupada: Oh, yes. And He was so strict… This man, being hopeless that he’ll not be able to associate with Caitanya Mahaprabhu, he committed suicide. Yogi Amrit Desai: Really? Prabhupada: And when He learned that he has committed suicide, He did not regret. “Yes, this is the just punishment.” You see how much strictly. [break] And He said, asat sanga. Yositam sangi-sangah. He said that. niskincanasya bhagavad-bhajanonmukhasya param param jigamisor bhava-sagarasya sandarsanam visayinam atha yositam ca ha hanta hanta visa-bhaksanato ’py asadhu He was very strict. So this is Vaisnava behavior. Asat-sanga-tyaga ei vaisnava-acara, stri-sangi eka asadhu krsnabhakta ara… So Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s sampradaya is very rigid. Yogi Amrit Desai: Yes, very rigid. Prabhupada: Very, very. But if one is able to follow Caitanya Mahaprabhu and receives a little mercy… He is very merciful. He is prepared to be merciful to anyone, any fallen soul. But if we take it, His mercy, if we simply follow His instructions, then our life is successful. Life is successful. Yat-karunya-kataksa-vaibhavavatam tam gauram eva stumah. Prabodhananda Sarasvati… Even if we are not able to take His whole mercy, a little part of His mercy, then our life… Yogi Amrit Desai: Before I leave, can they just stand here and have darsana and then we go? Can they come in? Prabhupada: Who? Yogi Amrit Desai: My sister and my brother-in-law. Those… Prabhupada: They are here? Yogi Amrit Desai: Yes. Prabhupada: Yes. Yogi Amrit Desai: Just darsana. So they won’t take too much energy. Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Yogi Amrit Desai: I’ll call them. Prabhupada: So Govinda dasi, you are feeling all right? Like this atmosphere? So Caitya-guru, your program, that you are going to construct temple there? [break] Aiye [break] You must accept the standard way, then you’ll get siddhi, you’ll get sukha and param gati. Unless you follow the standard way, na sukham na param gatim. So if you have interest in bhakti-yoga, then you practice the bhakti-yoga properly. That will make you successful. Otherwise, tesam asau klesala eva sisyate, simply whatever labor you are doing, that is your profit and no other profit. Klesala eva. Nanyad yatha sthula-tusavaghatinam. The example is tusa. Tusa you know? The skin of rice? Husk. Yes. So if there is paddy, if you beat it, you’ll get rice. But if you beat on the husk, then… Yogi Amrit Desai: You won’t get anything. Prabhupada: But your gain is only that labor. So similarly, if you don’t know what is the substance, you go on laboring, that laboring is your only achievement and nothing else. Yogi Amrit Desai: Such a beautiful example. If you keep on beating the husk… Prabhupada: What you’ll get? Yogi Amrit Desai: The labor you get. Prabhupada: Srama eva hi kevalam. dharmah svanusthitah pumsam visvaksena-kathasu yah notpadayed yadi ratim srama eva hi kevalam [SB 1.2.8] Srama eva hi kevalam. What is the profit? (Hindi) Sewer. Pigs. These are the natural examples. (Hindi) Tapo divyam putraka yena suddhyed sattvam. Just purify your existence, that tapasya. Then you’ll get… Yasmad brahma-saukhyam anantam. Ramante yoginah anante. That is real yogic perfection. Satyanande cid-atmani. (Hindi) So if you have taken the bhakti-yoga system, do it nicely. You’ll get success very quickly. Otherwise, srama eva hi kevalam. So why should we waste our time, simply satisfied with the labor? Trivikrama: Hare Krsna. Prabhupada: Jaya. (guests leave) This is Japanese? Trivikrama: Chinese. I’m in China now. Prabhupada: In China proper? Trivikrama: No, no. But that is from China proper. Prabhupada: So what is the news? Trivikrama: We have distributed about 2,500 now of Chinese Bhagavad-gita. Prabhupada: Out of five thousand. Trivikrama: Yes. But also now, coming, I found out the Hong Kong temple has been closed. Prabhupada: Closed? Maybe. What…? Trivikrama: Because we are thinking of shifting to Hong Kong because our program mainly is in offices, you know. We go in office, and we dress with a suit and tie. So they’re thinking that we’re businessmen coming to buy something from them. So they treat us very nicely, “Oh, sit down. How do you do, Mr. Brown?” offer some tea or something. Then we immediately open up briefcase and present one of your Bhagavad-gitas. Then we preach a little bit. We tell them that “We’ve come here. This is the first time in Chinese language, a very wonderful book. So many men have recommended.” And then they appreciate a little bit. Then we say, “If you could help some little donation,” and they give us. But these are mostly high-class men in offices, you know. So now we’re kind of depleted, because ordinary men don’t speak English. So we’re going to Hong Kong, but there’s no temple there. We’ll have to live in hotels. Prabhupada: And where is that boy gone that was in Hong Kong? Trivikrama: He went to New York. Prabhupada: He is a Chinese man. Trivikrama: He went also. Well, the president was Sevananda, an American boy, his wife… It’s a difficult part of the world, Prabhupada. No one likes it. Prabhupada: Hong Kong. Trivikrama: People don’t take. Even in Taiwan, now we are Republic of China, but we had a nice center, but people just aren’t interested very much. Gopala Krsna: You got a copy, eh, Easy Journey to Other Planets? Prabhupada: It is very attractive. Gopala Krsna: You like it? We only did ten thousand each, but I think we’ll sell it out in Kumbhamela. And if we have these two pandals in Ludhiana and Mathura… Prabhupada: So why don’t you order more? Gopala Krsna: Right now I don’t have much money, so I’m going slow. But when we sell, we’ll get the money back, print more. Prabhupada: No, I can give you some loan. Gopala Krsna: Yes. We will do that. We may need a small loan because… Also the printer came to see me. I told him to bring down the Bengali Gitar-Gan price, and I’ll think we’ll print only one lakh here because his quality is much better than a small letter press in Calcutta. Prabhupada: So if you regularly do businesslike, I can give you loan. Gopala Krsna: Yes. We may need a small loan, Srila Prabhupada. I’m not asking till it becomes… Prabhupada: No. For printing books I’ll give you loan. Gopala Krsna: Actually the BBT’s turnover now is around four lakhs. A year ago we opened this BBT account with only two thousand rupees in the bank. Now it’s gone to four lakhs. Prabhupada: Books which are sellable, you can print in quantity. That will be cheaper. These books I think will be… Gopala Krsna: Yes. We’re going to sell this for one rupee, fifty paisa. Prabhupada: (Hindi) Indian: Yes. Prabhupada, I am taking two books. (mixed Hindi and English) Gopala Krsna: Well, we purposely did not have a spine here. We wanted to keep the cost low. You know you cannot get everything. If you want to keep the cost low, then you have to make some small sacrifice. Prabhupada: (yawns) We want first quality. Gopala Krsna: But for Hindi books, Srila Prabhupada, we find pricing is also very important. Because in Hindi and Bengali books, they cannot sell for more than a rupee or rupee, fifty. In English books… Prabhupada: So at what price you are selling? Gopala Krsna: This is costing us seventy-eight paisa. So BBT will sell it to the temples for eighty paisa, and the temples are free to sell it for one, one-fifty. So we’re charging reasonable price, so we can go after quantity. Prabhupada: No, if it can be sold at two rupees, you spend little more. Yes. Indian: That’s what I said. Gopala Krsna: I selected the most popular pictures for covers because people buy in India on the basis of covers. Prabhupada: Yes. It is very nicely selected. Both pictures are very nice. Gopala Krsna: All the three books, I think, the pictures have come out quite nice. Prabhupada: There are others also? Indian: I went to the printing press, and I asked him “Why don’t you print like the other books you have, Easy Journey to Other Planets?” So he said that “We have done little mistake, and the next printing it will be better.” Gopala Krsna: It’s not a mistake. We perfectly agreed. You told me so, that (Hindi). Prabhupada: What will be price for one lakh? Gopala Krsna: Of this? I think it will go around a velo(?), because the real book cost seventy-eight paisa; paper is about forty paisa. So paper, whether you buy one or one lakh, it’s the same. Printing is about thirty-eight paisa. And out of thirty-eight paisa, plate-making and all will come to about ten paisa. Prabhupada: Plate is already made. Gopala Krsna: Yes, that’s what I’m saying. No, I’m just saying by increased run how much can you save? So I imagine you save about three paisa, four paisa more per book. It’s not enough to warrant extra investment. I have analyzed the difference between doing large print runs India and America. In America and Europe labor is very expensive. So to them, to stop the machine in between and start again, it’s very expensive, so it makes a lot of difference. But in India labor is cheap. So for them to stop the machine in between and then start again, it’s not so expensive. So the ceiling is not as great as the extra investment you have to put in. Therefore I’m not doing large run except where it’s absolutely necessary. Prabhupada: No. Items which are selling, that we can do because… Gopala Krsna: Yes. Like Bhagavad-gita we did one lakh. Prabhupada: …to wait means that waste of time. Gopala Krsna: Yes. But Bhagavad-gita, we’re doing one lakh copies now, and Srimad-Bhagavatam is our first experiment with the paper manufacturer here. He’s making paper for us exactly like American, especially for us. So I’ve given Srimad-Bhagavatam, First Canto, Part Two. We are printing ten thousand. Four thousand we’ll print on this government paper, softbound, for cheap distribution, and six thousand on expensive American paper, hardbound, for export, because we will be able to export it for a dollar forty, which is two dollars below what Los Angeles charges. Substantial… So as an experiment, I only wanted to… I’ve ordered paper for six thousand expensive hardbound. Let’s see how the paper is. If it’s good, then we’ll use the same paper for one lakh. Before taking a risk on one lakh, I wanted to experiment on a smaller run. Trivikrama: So I’m also thinking about printing again. Now we have just enough… Prabhupada: We can print here. Gopala Krsna: We have very good arrangement. Prabhupada: At what price you are printing? Trivikrama: Pretty cheap. Gopala Krsna: Hong Kong is very expensive. Prabhupada: No no, let him say. Trivikrama: Well, you know the book we have, six chapters. Prabhupada: Yes. Trivikrama: It costs seventy-five cents, U.S… Prabhupada: Seventy-five cents. So multiply it by six. Gopala Krsna: It comes to about six rupees. Prabhupada: It’s costly. I think here it must be cheaper. Gopala Krsna: There’re very few… How many color illustrations in it? Prabhupada: Just take quotation. If you can, you print here. Gopala Krsna: And if it is for export, it will be even cheaper. Prabhupada: We can take quotation. Gopala Krsna: Yes. How many color plates do you have? Hm, 298, 300. Well, we can take a quotation and see. Prabhupada: Here it must be cheaper. Gopala Krsna: Have you seen the Gitas we printed in India? Here are our samples. They’re very good. Actually, I mean I’m not trying to be rude… Because I was negotiating the prices for the Chinese Gita when… You know that time. Sevananda was telling me all the prices of the worst of Hong Kong for that time. It was above a dollar. Trivikrama: Yeah, I know, but that was in Hong Kong. We got it printed in Taiwan for cheaper. Gopala Krsna: Oh. Because he sent me for dollar forty, dollar thirty. I have the prices with me. Trivikrama: And this was… That was also for the corrections. No, the price is about seventy-five cents. Gopala Krsna: Yes. Only thing I’ve told Jayatirtha and Bali-mardana Prabhus to do is to open a letter of credit now because we are going to be exporting these Gitas at export price. And the bank is giving our printer a loan of ten lakhs. So he has to show the bank a letter of credit, so I hope they send it, and then this will start rolling. End of February is our first shipment. We’re going to ship ten thousand Gitas. Prabhupada: Letter of credit you can get. Gopala Krsna: Yes, I hope they give it. Prabhupada: Bank of America will give. Gopala Krsna: What, Srila Prabhupada? [break] Prabhupada: (referring to Kumbhamela?) When I was in midst of the crowd, the crowd was so big that I was afraid: “If there is any rush, this child will be finished.” Because if there is little rush, you cannot go back; you cannot go forward. Hari-sauri: Yes, if you go in a crowd. Prabhupada: It is very dangerous. And if there is some force, you become suffocated. So still, people were going slowly. By grace of Krsna nothing happened. But same thing happened later years when Jawaharlal Nehru was present. So many people crashed and fallen in the river Yamuna and died. Hari-sauri: Drowned in the river. Prabhupada: The rush came, and there was no protection. Hari-sauri: We’ll have to be very careful if we go to bathe in the river. Prabhupada: No, now they make arrangement, section by bamboo, so the rush may not be very pressurable. Section by section. So section they go. Now the arrangement is better. But formerly the arrangement was not… It was open, and people come. As soon as there is little rush, pushing, there is great danger. Hari-sauri: (laughs) Sounds like an auspicious place to die, though. Prabhupada: Yes. So I remember that day. I was thinking that “Such a big rush, forty million.” Forty million, er four million. Hari-sauri: Four million. Prabhupada: And if there is little push, then this poor child will be finished. We were going very slow, and we did not know. I like… I remember that, that “I have come in a very dangerous position.” Perhaps 1928, or about fifty years ago. Hari-sauri: The reason for the Mela is because there was some drops of nectar from the… Prabhupada: It is actually a religious conference. All the different groups, they gather in that holy place, and they propagate their philosophy, discussion, like that. India is country of religion. They know how spiritual life more important than this material life. That is India. Now they are diverting their attention to the material; otherwise whole India, they are for spiritual life. They don’t care for material … This material life is brought from Western countries, these railways, these…, so many things, bridges and so on, so on. Hari-sauri: Factories. Prabhupada: Factories and industry and export and import and then slaughterhouse, drinking, prostitute—these are all British contribution. In India, before that, they did not know, although there was Muhammadan kingdom. Muhammadans were happy as ruler. They did not… They thought that “Let them execute their own religion, and let us our religion.” That was the relation. And Hindus, they took it that “Somebody must be government…” [break] …policy that “If the Indians remain as Indian, it will be impossible to govern. Give them education and condemn everything Indian.” And they engaged their own men, engaged our men, and gradually they developed the industry. Naturally people became very much astonished: “Oh, they are making such a nice bridge. We have now laid down the railway. We have got facilities, so on, so on…” They gave them, for developing these enterprises, a little knowledge in English, ABCD, they would get good job. In this way they established. Money and export, import… This business enterprise and industry, these…, all these things, were introduced. There was not a single factory before British days. Industry idea is completely Western. And tea garden. Giriraja: I know Mr. Bajoria in Calcutta, he told me that in the beginning the Indians would not purchase tea because they considered it was sinful, and the British had to make a big propaganda. Prabhupada: Yes, tea sets(?) committee. All the tea gardeners, all, they were mostly Britishers. They paid money for maintaining a department, tea sets(?) committee, and their only business was to make propaganda village to village how tea becomes popular. Similarly, drinking, meat-eating… And it became a fashion among the richer class to keep prostitutes, go to the garden weekend with prostitutes and wine, freely use them, intoxicated. It was a prestigious position to keep a prostitute. A rich man having a garden and one prostitute, they were… Anything in demand… I have seen it. Now I think, “How things are going on, that…?” You have seen that Mullik’s house? Giriraja: Yes. Prabhupada: Thakur Mullik, Radharani. So in their festival some dancing girl would come, vaibi.(?) That was aristocratic, to call a prostitute and dance. So at that time we were children, five, six, seven years old. So persons who were of our father’s age, they would sit down round the prostitute exactly like the street dogs surround one female dog, exactly. They had no shame even. This was aristocratic. And talking all nonsense, and if the prostitute smiles, they become very much obliged. She is (laughter) smiling. And amongst our mother’s friends, they were talking, “My husband has kept that prostitute.” And another lady… We were at that time boys, three, four years, but I remember all these things. Another lady, “My husband has kept that…” Giriraja: They were proud. Prabhupada: In our childhood I saw. To go weekend to the garden and… Generally they go with family, and others, they go with prostitute. With prostitute they have got freedom to handle. The higher… And not only that, during marriage ceremony, high circle marriage ceremony, they would participate in drinking, even men and women. Otherwise, in India, woman drinking or taking meat is a horrible crime. And what to speak of smoking? That is most shameless. That was aristocratic, drinking and eating meat… The Bengali, they were the richer section because others, they were foreigners. They came to Calcutta and earned money. And the Bengalis, they had their aristocratic families, zamindaries, everything in their occupation. So Bengalis were richer section in Calcutta, and…, four, five big, big families. And now they are finished on account of this aristocracy. So one gentleman, he was Harendranatha Singh, very rich man, one of the richest men of Calcutta. He lost all his estate simply by this extravagance. Every evening his house is full with guests every evening, for… What is called? That table? Giriraja: Billiards? Prabhupada: Billiard-playing or some exhibition of singing, and hundreds of men will gather. And they were feasting, first-class food. In this way spending, spending, spending… And then prostitute, aristocracy. In this way one property and one property lost, everything. At last I saw him going by rickshaw. One day it was raining, and I saw that he was sitting in a rickshaw, and no friend asked him that, “Haren Babu, why you are…? You come to my car,” so many. And he was friendly to so many zamindars, kings, and very intimate with… But they lost of everything, and nobody cares. His sons, they are of our age. I do not know whether living or not. But most probably they are not living. They became professional singers, coming of such aristocratic father. His father, that Mr. R. N. Singh, was a very good singer. That also was another aristocratic that aristocrat family—art, some art: painter, singer, poets. Just like Rabindranath Tagore. They became famous as artist. Avanindranatha Thakur, he became famous as artist, and Rabindranath Tagore became… They also followed the aristocratic family, Calcutta. Similarly, this R. N. Singh became a singer. Because they are rich men, they have nothing to do, so… And nobody instructed them how to become saintly person. Simply debauchery and… [break] On the whole the whole human civilization is…, and all the directors, they are not giving chance to know the value of life and how to conduct life. It is the first time, that we are giving the real idea of life. Otherwise whole world is in darkness. Na te viduh svartha-gatim. They do not know what is the end of life. Adanta… Matir na krsne paratah svato va. Srimad-Bhagavatam, Vyasadeva’s real contribution… Ajanatah, lokasyajanato vidvams cakre satvata-samhitam. He has given the right direction. And they are not taking advantage of it. If they come to sense some day, they’ll read all these books, and they will come to know how to live life. That is our contribution, Krsna consciousness. The whole world plunged into darkness. They do not know what is life and what is the aim of life. That’s a fact. Periodically, they manufacture some ideas, and people will follow, and then it is failure, and again another revolution. They are…, the Russian philosophy, that periodically revolution required. That is also to some extent. But why revolution? Take the standard. They do not know what is the standard. Hari-sauri: That means they’re always imperfect. Prabhupada: Imperfect, surely. Let us do something about it. Hari-sauri: Jaya Srila Prabhupada. (end)
Yogi Amrit Desai of
Kripalu Ashram (PA USA)
by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada
January 2, 1977, Bombay