Room Conversation
with His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada
January 21, 1977, Bhubaneswar

Prabhupada: Just like if there are temples, people are accustomed, going to temple, chanting Hare…, there is no harm. But the city like the Western countries, simply sense gratification, that should be stopped.

Ramesvara: Yes. Yes. And you mention specifically…

Prabhupada: Just like in Krsna’s time there were cities like Mathura, Dvaraka. They were cities, big, big city. And when Krsna came, they were decorating, they were receiving. So that kind of city will continue, but not this hellish city—slaughterhouse, brothel and big, big tin car, and so on, accident.

Hari-sauri: Skyscrapers.

Prabhupada: We have no objection to this, provided there is Krsna consciousness. Unfortunately these things cover more time for their maintenance, and they forget Krsna consciousness. That should be stopped. The main business is development of Krsna consciousness.

Ramesvara: And you also mentioned not so much these ugra-karmic jobs.

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes.

Ramesvara: Industry. Now hundreds of thousands of people have their jobs in this way. So…

Prabhupada: Let them go to the farm. We are therefore organizing farm. As soon as they are jobless, “Come on. We shall feed you. We shall give you food.” There is no scarcity of food.

Hari-sauri: Does that mean we have to wait for the situation to arise where they are jobless?

Prabhupada: No. Wait… We are waiting, but if anyone comes, we have already big, big farms. “Come, hundreds. We shall provide you.”

Hari-sauri: But this is talking in terms of millions of people who are engaged in America in the cities.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Let millions… The land is also millions’ acres. We shall utilize gradually.

Ramesvara: Now, what I am thinking is this, that you have mentioned many times, several times, that there is a conflict which is inevitable between Russia and America.

Prabhupada: Hm. No, if they understand Krsna consciousness, both of them—now we are publishing—then there will be no conflict on…

Ramesvara: If Russia…

Prabhupada: Yes.

Ramesvara: But if not…

Prabhupada: Then we shall force America to fight with them. Finish this philosophy.

Ramesvara: Now, if this conflict takes place, then you mentioned that many cities both in America and Russia will be bombed or affected by this conflict.

Prabhupada: Hm, hm.

Ramesvara: So when the war is finished…

Prabhupada: Then they will come to their senses.

Ramesvara: Then there will be nothing left. Their jobs, their factories, it will all… So then they’ll be able to easily understand, “Now let us start again. We’ll live on the farm. Simpler life.”

Prabhupada: Yes.

Ramesvara: But…

Prabhupada: Yes. That will be good lesson for them.

Ramesvara: So is this conflict part of the spreading of Krsna consciousness?

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Paritranaya sadhunam vinasaya ca duskrtam [Bg. 4.8] To… Conflict means to finish the sinful activities, finish, stop it.

Ramesvara: It seems that then this conflict will be a great opportunity for our movement.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes.

Ramesvara: And afterwards there will be an opportunity to influence people.

Prabhupada: We shall take every opportunity. We are the best opportunists. Anukulyena krsnanu… This is anukula. This is favorable for spreading Krsna consciousness. We shall immediately accept. It doesn’t matter what it is. We do not depend on the public opinion—“This is good” or “This is bad.” Our “good” “bad” is: if it is favorable for spreading Krsna consciousness, it is good; otherwise bad.

Ramesvara: So it seems that as our movement grows more and more…

Prabhupada: Strong.

Ramesvara: …then America will more and more be considering active stopping of Communism. It’ll be logical.

Prabhupada: Everything will be stopped, all bogus social, political or religious systems. They will be all stopped.

Ramesvara: Then this will be a natural development of the growth of the Krsna consciousness movement.

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Two things: paritranaya sadhunam vinasaya ca duskrtam [Bg. 4.8]. As the duskrta—na mam duskrta mudhah— will be reduced, the sadhu will increase. Or the sadhu will increase, the duskrta will decrease.

Ramesvara: This conflict will be global. It will affect the whole world.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. That doesn’t matter.

Hari-sauri: We’re already in every country now.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is the Kuruksetra fight.

Ramesvara: So this conflict will take place…

Prabhupada: Support Yudhisthira Maharaja and kill Duryodhana. This is Kuruksetra.

Ramesvara: It seems our movement has to grow much more…

Prabhupada: It will grow.

Ramesvara: …before this will take place.

Prabhupada: It will grow: It is growing. Simply our workers should be very sincere and strict, and it will it grow. Nobody can check. That’s a fact. Simply we have to be very strict and sincere. Then nobody can check.

Ramesvara: Because after such a conflict the whole world will…

Prabhupada: Conflict is already there. Just like they’re opposing.

Ramesvara: But I mean actual destruction of their culture, their…

Prabhupada: Now they are trying to destroy us. And we are trying to destroy them. The conflict is already there. And this is now psychological fight. And then there will be actual fight. And we must take part in that fight.

Ramesvara: We will be the only ones who have any vision what to do after the war.

Prabhupada: Yes. We have got clear vision. We are not putting any theory. We are always presenting fact, and that is materializing. Just like we started this farm. It is materializing gradually. It is not yet fully organized; still, there is hope that it will give peace to the people. There is sufficient hope.

Hari-sauri: Is our goal to actually establish Vedic principles back into society again at large?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Ramesvara: Of course.

Prabhupada: That will be Satya-yuga. Again the Vedic principles will be established after finishing this Kali-yuga. And that is Satya-yuga. That is going on. Just after summer, there is winter. There is… After winter, there is summer.

Ramesvara: But this is extraordinary. Lord Caitanya’s movement, the ten thousand years of His movement, that is a special exception for the Kali-yuga.

Prabhupada: Special for this millennium. But the thing is going on like that, rotating.

Ramesvara: But in general, first it gets more and more degraded. Then it’s all finished.

Prabhupada: Yes. Unless there is degradation, there is no question of improvement. So this is going on. This is nature’s way, bhutva bhutva praliyate, appearance and disappearance.

Ramesvara: Now, this Krsna conscious government… Will many of the things that are going on in America, like schools and education, teaching people to read and write…

Prabhupada: They’ll have to reform.

Ramesvara: That will all continue, but it will be adjusted so that Krsna consciousness…

Prabhupada: Yes, Gurukula, Gurukula education.

Ramesvara: Still we’ll be teaching subjects like history and math.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Without teaching, how the human society will exist? There must be.

Hari-sauri: No, he’s talking about some of the subjects they teach now.

Ramesvara: Material science as well as spiritual science?

Prabhupada: No. No, no. There is no need of so-called material science—how to kill children in the womb. These things will be kicked out. Nonsense.

Ramesvara: Do you think that they will adopt Indian medicine over Western medicine, things like that? Because there has to be some varnasrama.

Prabhupada: No, medicine, if it is actually medicine, it will be accepted. It doesn’t matter whether it is Indian or Western. If it is medicine it will be accepted.

Ramesvara: So that kind of research is in the mode of goodness.

Prabhupada: That is already there. We have to make little research. It, already there. There are books, Ayurvedic books. They are very nice. Everything can be done. Dhanvantari. It is given by Dhanvantari avatara, incarnation of Krsna.

Ramesvara: You have written in the First Canto that we welcome scientists, doctors…

Prabhupada: Yes, if it is beneficial.

Ramesvara: We welcome all these people if they dovetail their work for Krsna.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Ramesvara: So it’s not that these…

Prabhupada: We do not approve anything which is not actually beneficial. Otherwise it doesn’t matter, homeopathic or allopathic. But there is standard medicine given by Dhanvantari.

Ramesvara: Yes. But what about certain technological advancements like airplanes and automobiles?

Prabhupada: There are subtler aeroplanes. Aeroplane is mentioned in the sastras. Now they are working on machine, but there are aeroplanes which can work on mantra.

Ramesvara: But that science is lost.

Prabhupada: Not lost. It is there.

Hari-sauri: It’s hidden.

Ramesvara: We can’t practice that.

Prabhupada: No, we can practice what is called akasa patala. This book is there in Germany. It was purchased by the Germans.

Ramesvara: But do you think that the Vedic sciences will be revived as our movement becomes…

Prabhupada: No, no, our main purpose is to revive Krsna consciousness. In favor of this Krsna consciousness, whatever is available, beneficial, we shall adopt.

Ramesvara: Yes.

Prabhupada: That’s all.

Ramesvara: In other words, we want to reorganize all of society so that they develop Krsna consciousness.

Prabhupada: Krsna consciousness. That’s it. We do not hate anything. That is not our business. Just like we utilizing this. So it is modern, scientific gift. So we can utilize it for spreading Krsna consciousness. We do not say… We are not so bigot—“No, no. It is material. We shall not touch it.” We are not such fool.

Hari-sauri: No, we can use everything.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Hari-sauri: But just like when we want to try and attract someone to Krsna consciousness now, the main theme is to try to get them to come and stay at the temple. But will that continue in the future?

Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Why not? It is learning. It is center for teaching you.

Ramesvara: No, you’ve… I think… You have already mentioned that we cannot expect that every man will completely surrender cent percent.

Prabhupada: No, no. That is not possible.

Ramesvara: There can be one example.

Prabhupada: There are three gunas. So somebody is under sattva-guna, somebody is… So you cannot disturb the… Let them remain in their… But we… Our process is transcendental. Kevalaya bhaktya. Kecit kevalaya bhaktya vasudeva-parayanah [SB 6.1.15]. Simply by bhakti we transcend all qualities—sattva-guna, rajo-guna, tamo-guna. So we have nothing to do with the qualities of material nature.

Hari-sauri: So those persons who can’t come up to the standard of the temple life…

Prabhupada: Yes.

Hari-sauri: …they should remain outside.

Prabhupada: That is above all the gunas.

Ramesvara: That’s very rare. That is the most rare.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Ramesvara: Not every man. You always say it’s not possible for every man.

Prabhupada: No, that you cannot do. Because you are in the material world, how you can avoid the influence of material qualities? But our process is so nice that anyone can avoid if he follows. There is no difficulty.

Hari-sauri: But just like in our society we already have so many people who are initiated, but they can’t follow the principles very strictly.

Prabhupada: That’s all right. It will take some time. They’ll do it.

Hari-sauri: They just have to be encouraged to keep that association.

Prabhupada: Therefore I stress in every letter, “Chant Hare Krsna at least sixteen times. Follow the principles.” That can be done.(?) This simple method will help. Even if he cannot strictly follow, still, whatever he has done, that is his asset. And it will give me more and more chance. So it is not actually lost. Tyaktva sva-dharmam caranambhujam harer, patet tato yadi bhajann apakvo ’tha.

Hari-sauri: So we have to give allowances to such people. We have to give allowance?

Prabhupada: Allowance? It is not allowance, but give him instruction. It is up to him to follow or not to follow.

Hari-sauri: But we cannot give any compromise.

Prabhupada: No. This is the way. “But you are not able? All right, take little more time.”

Hari-sauri: So, say like one point now that’s coming up more and more is that these married couples, the women want a divorce or get another husband.

Prabhupada: But we should not implicate.

Hari-sauri: So we cannot encourage divorce.

Prabhupada: No. We do not meddle matters in that way very much. That is a sideline.

Ramesvara: And one thing about government that we see, at least in America, is that each time there is an election the candidates may make so many pledges, “I think I’ll go this way.”

Prabhupada: No, election is going on under some rules and regulations, so you can make election under Krsna conscious government rules and regulations. That can be done. Legislative assembly, the senators, they must be all first-class brahmanas. Otherwise he cannot be elected. This is should be introduced. Unless one is following the brahminical principles, he cannot be elected. He must give up these four principles of sinful life. He should not accept any salary. Very much learned scholar in Vedic literature. Then he will be elected.

Ramesvara: That will happen one day.

Prabhupada: Yes. That will guide the whole nation. The rascals, anyway, the naked and prostitute-hunter, what they can do? These third-class, fourth-class, tenth-class men are being elected. There is no happiness. There is no solution of problems. All tenth-class men. I directly challenged one gentleman that “You are all tenth- class men.” Papa… Papa…

Hari-sauri: That man in Perth.

Prabhupada: “There is no first-class man now governing the situation. All fourth class, fifth class, tenth class. There is no first- class man.” I challenged him.

Hari-sauri: When he went out the door he said, “Oh, well, I suppose I’d better go back to my fourth-class life.”

Prabhupada: (laughs) Yes. You are already.

Ramesvara: In Vedic culture, kings like Pariksit Maharaja were trained when they were very young.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Ramesvara: So it seems…

Prabhupada: They were trained by the first-class brahmanas, saintly persons. They abided by their order. There was committee, advisory committee. Even at the time of his death, he’s asking advice from the saintly…, “What is my duty?” That is king. He’s not doing anything whimsically. And the first-class man should be first-class. Then second-class man, executive, ksatriyas, they will force: “You must do it!” And then the third class, they should produce and carry out the order of the second class, king. And fourth class, they cannot do anything. Let them serve everyone, that’s all, sudras. They have no intelligence. But everyone is important, cooperatively. This is society. You require also legs; you require also heads. Simply heads will not help you. Head will give instruction, “Leg, please walk in this way.” That’s all, legs will move. He carries me. “Hands, give me protection.” Immediately, “Yes!” A bad somebody(?) “Come on.” Yes. Coming. “Belly, you produce food, sufficient, so that the legs, hands and brain, everyone will be provided with sufficient…” This way. This is society. All third-class, fourth-class men, simply going to the factory, and they are making laws. This is… What is called? Chaos. Chaotic society, no brain.

Hari-sauri: Pandemonium.

Prabhupada: Pandemonium, yes. This has to be reformed. You cannot avoid these four classes working under the superior instruction of brahminical culture. Then everything… This life successful, next life is back to home, back to Godhead. That is civilization, no speculation. The formula is already there. Bhagavad-gita is the guidance, as it is. “Be happy here, and next life hope. Why you are disappointed? Take this way and be happy.” This is our movement. We are not going to exploit anyone. We are giving the right path: “Be happy in this life and next life also.” This is our mission. Para upakara. They are blindly following some ways of life. Blind men, certainly, without guidance, we are falling down in the ditch. Once this human life is misused, he falls down in the ditch. He does not… He becomes a tree. “Stand up there for one thousand years. What you can do?” This risk they are taking. They do not believe, therefore, there is next life. And wherefrom this life came, varieties? These rascals have no brain, and they are passing as scientist, politician, philosopher, all rascals, tenth-class men. Tell them. Challenge them, “What do you know about the value of life? Your brain must be washed to clear out all the dirty things.” Our duty is that. Just like a patient does not know how he will be cured, but the surgeon—“Operation. Clear out these pusses.” He may protest, “Oh, you are clearing out my pusses!” But “Yes! It is my business. Clear out the pusses. Then you will be relieved—by force.” But he can protest, “Oh, you are clearing out my pusses!” “Pusses, what for you…? Pusses is not to be maintained. It has to be cleared out.” This is para upakara, doing good to others. And the patient will protest, “Oh, this rascal doctor, killing me, killing me, killing me!” “Yes, I am not killing you. I am saving you. You go on accusing me any way, but I must do my duty.” This is the point. “Yes, we are washing brain,” exactly like the experienced surgeon. He doesn’t make any compromise. “Oh, you are suffering from the boil. There is pus. All right, you don’t like operation?” Will that cure? “”No, fool! Come one. Bring knife. Cut it. Press. Now?” “Oh, I am so relieved! You are God. You are God.” Then he will see. That is our duty: purge out all pusses accumulated due to infection, material infection. This is our duty. We cannot make any compromise. When the pusses are to be purged out, we cannot take your advice, that “Just blow some air from the mouth or some fan. It will be cured.” No, it will not be. Take surgical operation. That is only way. Purge out. “No this! No this! No this! No meat-eating, no…” This is purging.

Ramesvara: Thank you, Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. (end)